Infamous Death wobble
02-24-2006, 05:48 PM
#61
Banned
Originally Posted by philobeddo
DJ's right about the hubs, the stock unit bearings suck.I put dyna trac hubs on, smooth ride, no more vibration, steering is smoother. Just waiting for someone to come out with longer control arms that will work with leveling kit. You can't just put a leveling kit on and not address steering components. Also when you raise it up it pulls your axle back,not designed to work that way. I fully agree with DJ about the steering. I do think longer than stock control arms although not the main problem will be a better setup than stock, putting your axle back to stock location after lifting. Not sure the stock control arms and adjustment cams will do that.
Once I switch to long arms, I will have the Skyjacker arms available. I'll let you know in case you want to buy them. They are longer than stock.
YFZ, I honestly doubt the Power Wagon control arms are longer than normal ones, just knowing how DC works. It would be smart if they were, but I just don't see them making control arms just for that truck.
Also, if you use the coil springs from a Power Wagon under a Cummins, it won't give you any lift. You'll probably lose height, if anything. The CTD springs are quite a bit stiffer than the Hemi springs.
What I think totally rocks about death wobble is that all you have to do is replace a steering stabilizer, and maybe your track bar, and you will never have it again.
Riiiiight. I'm trying to throw you guys a frickin' bone here.
02-24-2006, 08:24 PM
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Spring rate for the power wagon is probably different than the CTD spring unless dodge is using CTD springs on the power wagon, not sure but will find out.I don't think the control arms are longer, looked under a power wagon at the dealer and it looks like the adjustment cam on the lower control arm is adjusted to push the arms far forward, the adjustment on the reg ram 2500 is different and I looked at several.I went to Thurens web and didn't see anything on the TrackBar for the o6's, guess i'll do more surfing.I did write the part # down from both the ram and power wagon control arms just can't find them.
02-24-2006, 08:58 PM
#63
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Found these on E Bay
These control arms came off a 2005 Dodge Ram Power Wagon. The truck had 8000 miles on it. They should work on both 2500 and 3500 trucks. See my other auctions for Dodge Power Wagon items. The power wagons have 1.8 inches of lift over a stock 2500. This is done with long arms, springs, and long travel shocks.
These control arms came off a 2005 Dodge Ram Power Wagon. The truck had 8000 miles on it. They should work on both 2500 and 3500 trucks. See my other auctions for Dodge Power Wagon items. The power wagons have 1.8 inches of lift over a stock 2500. This is done with long arms, springs, and long travel shocks.
02-24-2006, 10:33 PM
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These guys say their parts fix DW on trucks up to 3"lift. There is a post in the perfomance section by Cquestad who has one. I remember someone posting last year said it tightened up the steering on his truck...glad someone else posted it. ks
http://www.solidsteel.biz/
http://www.solidsteel.biz/
02-25-2006, 12:27 PM
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Mikmaze: My dealer was the one that installed the 2" lift...
If their changing the part doesn't work, it didn't cost me anything to find out as it wss under warranty...
Jim
If their changing the part doesn't work, it didn't cost me anything to find out as it wss under warranty...
Jim
03-15-2006, 09:22 PM
#68
Registered User
I'm posting on all threads related to this problem , search words were 'DEATH WOBBLE'
Track bar & Death wobble.
Well the Thuren track bar is on. It was a little slow getting to me , Not Don’s fault, but more so UPS. I’m here to give it to you straight because of several reasons. First I have no affiliation with ANY company that produces parts or advertises here. I am not an ASE certified tech or any type of auto mechanic for that matter, and certainly not a Physics major that understands the harmonics of frame design. I have been working on 73-87 Chevy trucks for over 20 years as my side hobby and I , at one time, had Nuclear certification as a welder.. I worked in a heavy steel fab shop and I have fabricated my share of parts and probably have a few inventions for those year GM trucks that I should market, but I don’t. Anyway the bar comes unfinished so the first order was to tape off the ends and spray it with chassis epoxy so it won’t rust.. The one end comes with polyurethane bushing installed and the right side end comes with an adjustable heim end in it and two special spacer/bushings. I parked the truck with wheels straight and both bolts are tight!, And are locktited from the factory. It took a breaker bar to break them loose and then the impact gun would finally spin them. My Impact gun is 25 years old , but trust me those bolts were tight. The bolt heads are 18 MM. The right side bolt has some clearance issues getting at the head and then coming out and it takes a few trips back up to the steering wheel to get the tie rods positioned just right where that bolt will come out. If you get the front wheels off the ground safely and leave the key on then you can move the wheels from below or use a helper behind the wheel!. I then measured the center to center on the factory bar and came up with 38-13/16 and that’s where I tried to set the new bar. Do not tighten the jam nut on the adjustable end yet. Dry fit the bar up in place and make sure the bolts pass through easily. On the last dry fit I marked the position of the heim end in accordance with the bar itself with a sharpie pen. Unfortunately the jam nut is not accessible when the bar is up in place so it has to be removed to tighten. Make sure the heim and fixed end are at the same mounting angles or the heim may be twisted when it is installed. The custom bushings allow for a little imperfection here, but I pulled mine back down a few times and adjusted it before I was happy. Mount the bar in a vice and dog that jam nut down good. I loctited it, because like I said, if it backs off you cannot tighten it while in place. DONE. Another 15 minute job that took 2 hours!! Remember there is nothing associated with the steering or suspension here so nothing will pop out at you or fall down. No Lift, jack stands or special tools needed. ***NOTE*** the nut on the backside of both bolts is fabbed up from the factory with a locking arm on it. It’s like a 3” long wing welded to the nut. It jams against whatever it can and allows you NOT have to use a wrench on the nut. If you are using an impact gun DO NOT get your hand up in that area or you’ll be missing a finger when that wing comes back around to jam in the other direction.
TestDrive- As a note the truck has been feeling worse than ever before I installed this bar. Truck has 9,000 miles on it. I instantly felt something different. Not sure how to explain it, but it seemed stiffer and steering feedback seemed sharper. I took a ride down several side roads that are in bad shape and purposely hit every road repair I could fid and a lot of the ‘flutter’ is gone. I’m still not 100% pleased that I am feeling any of that at all ,especially considering that a friends 11 year old Ford F350 4x4 with solid front axle still doesn’t have that ‘flutter’ although it truly does ride like brick. I was determined to try a few high speed roads that caused great lumps in my throat before, and I tried one in particular on the way to and from work and the rig is a lot better. I ‘powered on’ across a few of the bad sections and it never started the death wobble, but was a little unstable, maybe just due to stiffness. I’ll purposely try another road it didn’t like this week. I will come back and comment more when I get the front end aligned and have the caster set at Don’s recommended 5* of Caster.
I’m not here to bash or promote, but I disagree with one of the opening statements to this thread that the bar is much heavier than the stock one. It’s only 1/8” heavier. I believe the difference in ride is because the new bar is constructed of heavy wall tubing and not a solid rod. I don’t build race car roll bars, but the theory there has always been that the round tubing is lighter, yet stronger, than an equal diameter solid bar. I also think that the solid bar may be one of the things that contribute to the ‘flutter’ feel that you get up in the steering wheel. Maybe the tubing helps to absorb the harmonics. Regardless it has helped.
Am I happy, YES & NO.
GOOD=$300( actually $280 with shipping right now) is a small price to pay if you are one of those guys that parked your rig already because it shimmys so bad. $300 is a small price if you paid $35K ++ for a rig you are not happy with or can’t feel safe driving(ARE YOU LISTENING DODGE??). Don Thuren was indeed a good man to deal with. He’s willing to talk to you directly and sent UPS tracking number upon request. The new track bar is a quality piece of steel with good craftsmanship. I wouldn’t have spent $180 for two front shocks if I would have tried this first. I know the stock shocks are lousy, but they worked fine and I felt no difference in ride at all with the new ones. The rear shocks are another story altogether, I’m glad they’re gone.
BAD= Another $300 spent trying to correct something that Dodge has darn sure known about for years and something that should never stop a person from driving their new truck. I CAN still feel something that I don’t like, but it does not scare me like before.
**ANOTHER NOTE*** If you think you are one of the lucky ones that does not have this problem you may be right, but you may also just be a lightfoot. This problem with mine is a LOT worse when I am hard on torque pedal and hitting bumps at the same time. TRY YOURS to be sure so it doesn’t catch you by surprise when you least expect it.
STORY TIME- You finally get 200 yards of road to pass grandma & grandpa in their 1976 Plymouth Volare that still has the original air in the bias ply tires. You know you can make it on power level #5 so you kick her up and wait for that last car in the line coming the other way, you’ve been following them for 3 miles and that was 2.5 too many. You anticipated the turbo lag and are already at FULL PULL and then you whip out seeing an 18 wheeler is headed straight at you, but you knew that and thought you had plenty of room. ALL of a sudden the washboard in the road, that you are going against the grain on, starts your truck into a violent front end shimmy and you don’t know whether it will stop or not, you have to hammer the brakes and dive back behind the Volare as the Peterbuilt roars by blaring it’s horn and shooting you the bird. It will ruin your day and maybe your boxer shorts! Plus you also took a few years off grandpas life. (based on a true life story!)
Track bar & Death wobble.
Well the Thuren track bar is on. It was a little slow getting to me , Not Don’s fault, but more so UPS. I’m here to give it to you straight because of several reasons. First I have no affiliation with ANY company that produces parts or advertises here. I am not an ASE certified tech or any type of auto mechanic for that matter, and certainly not a Physics major that understands the harmonics of frame design. I have been working on 73-87 Chevy trucks for over 20 years as my side hobby and I , at one time, had Nuclear certification as a welder.. I worked in a heavy steel fab shop and I have fabricated my share of parts and probably have a few inventions for those year GM trucks that I should market, but I don’t. Anyway the bar comes unfinished so the first order was to tape off the ends and spray it with chassis epoxy so it won’t rust.. The one end comes with polyurethane bushing installed and the right side end comes with an adjustable heim end in it and two special spacer/bushings. I parked the truck with wheels straight and both bolts are tight!, And are locktited from the factory. It took a breaker bar to break them loose and then the impact gun would finally spin them. My Impact gun is 25 years old , but trust me those bolts were tight. The bolt heads are 18 MM. The right side bolt has some clearance issues getting at the head and then coming out and it takes a few trips back up to the steering wheel to get the tie rods positioned just right where that bolt will come out. If you get the front wheels off the ground safely and leave the key on then you can move the wheels from below or use a helper behind the wheel!. I then measured the center to center on the factory bar and came up with 38-13/16 and that’s where I tried to set the new bar. Do not tighten the jam nut on the adjustable end yet. Dry fit the bar up in place and make sure the bolts pass through easily. On the last dry fit I marked the position of the heim end in accordance with the bar itself with a sharpie pen. Unfortunately the jam nut is not accessible when the bar is up in place so it has to be removed to tighten. Make sure the heim and fixed end are at the same mounting angles or the heim may be twisted when it is installed. The custom bushings allow for a little imperfection here, but I pulled mine back down a few times and adjusted it before I was happy. Mount the bar in a vice and dog that jam nut down good. I loctited it, because like I said, if it backs off you cannot tighten it while in place. DONE. Another 15 minute job that took 2 hours!! Remember there is nothing associated with the steering or suspension here so nothing will pop out at you or fall down. No Lift, jack stands or special tools needed. ***NOTE*** the nut on the backside of both bolts is fabbed up from the factory with a locking arm on it. It’s like a 3” long wing welded to the nut. It jams against whatever it can and allows you NOT have to use a wrench on the nut. If you are using an impact gun DO NOT get your hand up in that area or you’ll be missing a finger when that wing comes back around to jam in the other direction.
TestDrive- As a note the truck has been feeling worse than ever before I installed this bar. Truck has 9,000 miles on it. I instantly felt something different. Not sure how to explain it, but it seemed stiffer and steering feedback seemed sharper. I took a ride down several side roads that are in bad shape and purposely hit every road repair I could fid and a lot of the ‘flutter’ is gone. I’m still not 100% pleased that I am feeling any of that at all ,especially considering that a friends 11 year old Ford F350 4x4 with solid front axle still doesn’t have that ‘flutter’ although it truly does ride like brick. I was determined to try a few high speed roads that caused great lumps in my throat before, and I tried one in particular on the way to and from work and the rig is a lot better. I ‘powered on’ across a few of the bad sections and it never started the death wobble, but was a little unstable, maybe just due to stiffness. I’ll purposely try another road it didn’t like this week. I will come back and comment more when I get the front end aligned and have the caster set at Don’s recommended 5* of Caster.
I’m not here to bash or promote, but I disagree with one of the opening statements to this thread that the bar is much heavier than the stock one. It’s only 1/8” heavier. I believe the difference in ride is because the new bar is constructed of heavy wall tubing and not a solid rod. I don’t build race car roll bars, but the theory there has always been that the round tubing is lighter, yet stronger, than an equal diameter solid bar. I also think that the solid bar may be one of the things that contribute to the ‘flutter’ feel that you get up in the steering wheel. Maybe the tubing helps to absorb the harmonics. Regardless it has helped.
Am I happy, YES & NO.
GOOD=$300( actually $280 with shipping right now) is a small price to pay if you are one of those guys that parked your rig already because it shimmys so bad. $300 is a small price if you paid $35K ++ for a rig you are not happy with or can’t feel safe driving(ARE YOU LISTENING DODGE??). Don Thuren was indeed a good man to deal with. He’s willing to talk to you directly and sent UPS tracking number upon request. The new track bar is a quality piece of steel with good craftsmanship. I wouldn’t have spent $180 for two front shocks if I would have tried this first. I know the stock shocks are lousy, but they worked fine and I felt no difference in ride at all with the new ones. The rear shocks are another story altogether, I’m glad they’re gone.
BAD= Another $300 spent trying to correct something that Dodge has darn sure known about for years and something that should never stop a person from driving their new truck. I CAN still feel something that I don’t like, but it does not scare me like before.
**ANOTHER NOTE*** If you think you are one of the lucky ones that does not have this problem you may be right, but you may also just be a lightfoot. This problem with mine is a LOT worse when I am hard on torque pedal and hitting bumps at the same time. TRY YOURS to be sure so it doesn’t catch you by surprise when you least expect it.
STORY TIME- You finally get 200 yards of road to pass grandma & grandpa in their 1976 Plymouth Volare that still has the original air in the bias ply tires. You know you can make it on power level #5 so you kick her up and wait for that last car in the line coming the other way, you’ve been following them for 3 miles and that was 2.5 too many. You anticipated the turbo lag and are already at FULL PULL and then you whip out seeing an 18 wheeler is headed straight at you, but you knew that and thought you had plenty of room. ALL of a sudden the washboard in the road, that you are going against the grain on, starts your truck into a violent front end shimmy and you don’t know whether it will stop or not, you have to hammer the brakes and dive back behind the Volare as the Peterbuilt roars by blaring it’s horn and shooting you the bird. It will ruin your day and maybe your boxer shorts! Plus you also took a few years off grandpas life. (based on a true life story!)
03-15-2006, 11:49 PM
#69
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Sounds good. Great write-up.
Just remember that even the best quality (QA-1) heim WILL get sloppy after a while and "clunk" when the telflon is gone...especially in dirty/dusty conditons. Just ask me how many 3/4 x 3/4" heims I've replaced on my 4 link rock-crawler. Some last a while, others are gone after one season. They don't loose structural integrity, the just loose a couple of thousanths of interfearance fit and will bug the heck out of me. Now, a bushing at one end of the bar will help, but only for a while. I'm not trying to bash this product, and I might fab and/or buy one myself, I just want to make sure folks know a potential issue with using heims.
Moral of the story? Any heim on a daily driver will be a maintenance item after a while.
--D
Just remember that even the best quality (QA-1) heim WILL get sloppy after a while and "clunk" when the telflon is gone...especially in dirty/dusty conditons. Just ask me how many 3/4 x 3/4" heims I've replaced on my 4 link rock-crawler. Some last a while, others are gone after one season. They don't loose structural integrity, the just loose a couple of thousanths of interfearance fit and will bug the heck out of me. Now, a bushing at one end of the bar will help, but only for a while. I'm not trying to bash this product, and I might fab and/or buy one myself, I just want to make sure folks know a potential issue with using heims.
Moral of the story? Any heim on a daily driver will be a maintenance item after a while.
--D
03-16-2006, 09:22 AM
#70
Banned
Originally Posted by RockRover
Sounds good. Great write-up.
Any heim on a daily driver will be a maintenance item after a while.
--D
Any heim on a daily driver will be a maintenance item after a while.
--D
I'm running heims on each end of the drag link and tie rod on both of my Dodges, and the 01 has had that setup for over a year. No problems yet.
I hear about how heims wear out fast on a daily driver, but I have yet to see this in person. I just hear about it on the web.
03-16-2006, 09:27 AM
#71
Banned
Originally Posted by crossy
I disagree with one of the opening statements to this thread that the bar is much heavier than the stock one.
I'm glad you are happy with Don's bar. Keep in mind that a track bar does not always solve the entire problem. Keep an eye on your other weak stock parts that are prone to failure. Watch the tie rod end (specifically the passenger side), hub assemblies, and ball joints. It is possible to get this all setup like it should be, but we as owners have to inject money into the trucks to make it happen.
03-23-2006, 12:00 AM
#72
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So djgaston, any more DW symptoms? You mentioned that you did feel a slight flutter still after the replacement.
After reading this post my stock 265'd tired, DUAL superlift sterring stabilizer w/Bilsteins, DW'd for the first time in months (happend frequently before the mods). Front tire presure is low but that shouldn't matter. This sucks.
Next step is the pan-hard/track-bar. I have a hard time believing that ball-joints are an issue with DW even if bad because typically the bad part results in up and down play...not side to side...Dunno' just pizzed.
==D
After reading this post my stock 265'd tired, DUAL superlift sterring stabilizer w/Bilsteins, DW'd for the first time in months (happend frequently before the mods). Front tire presure is low but that shouldn't matter. This sucks.
Next step is the pan-hard/track-bar. I have a hard time believing that ball-joints are an issue with DW even if bad because typically the bad part results in up and down play...not side to side...Dunno' just pizzed.
==D
03-23-2006, 04:54 AM
#73
Registered User
IT was ME that mentioned still having a slight flutter. It's still there cause i have yet to schedule the alignment. I have purposely tried to get it back since then and several times it tried to start agin but quickly goes away. I towed 6000# over the weekend through SE Pa. and at least I felt safe.
there is a clunk from left side now on hard turns. I tightened the bar again and clunk is till there. maybe its finding the next week link? DAVE
there is a clunk from left side now on hard turns. I tightened the bar again and clunk is till there. maybe its finding the next week link? DAVE
03-23-2006, 08:05 AM
#74
Registered User
Last week, everyone in my truck saw a Dodge Dually (2nd gen) get the DW's while driving down I-40 east of Albuquerque.
I didn't see the axle move side to side. The tires appeared to be shimmying violently on their steering pivots (ball joints). The shimmy was so violent it appeared the tires were getting airborne. I wished I had a video camera.
The guy slowed down and the shimmying stopped, then pulled to the side of the road.
Perhaps it wasn't DW but a balljoint or tie rod failing but it WAS SCARY!!!
I didn't see the axle move side to side. The tires appeared to be shimmying violently on their steering pivots (ball joints). The shimmy was so violent it appeared the tires were getting airborne. I wished I had a video camera.
The guy slowed down and the shimmying stopped, then pulled to the side of the road.
Perhaps it wasn't DW but a balljoint or tie rod failing but it WAS SCARY!!!
03-23-2006, 10:21 AM
#75
Registered User
[The shimmy was so violent it appeared the tires were getting airborne.
it WAS SCARY!!![/QUOTE]
TRUST ME they were airborne thats why you can't steer when it happens.DAVE
it WAS SCARY!!![/QUOTE]
TRUST ME they were airborne thats why you can't steer when it happens.DAVE