The rundown on 11 TCs
03-17-2006, 04:30 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by omaharam
Suncoast - 3 disc $1295 warranty ?, yes on shaft, border line on flexplate
03-17-2006, 04:39 PM
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While it is true that ATS is one of the few companies that offer a SFI approved billet flexplate....they make it because high power towing trucks with a tight tranny need it. Others may use their flexplate. I can see why companies that don't have a SFI approved billet or laminated flexplate in their product line wouldn't want you to get a flexplate if the only option was one from their competition. The 48re has only been out since '03, tight trannies for these trucks have not been that popular that long maybe '01, '02. I'm sure we will be hearing more flexplate issues once these trucks get over 50k miles on them with mods. The tigher we make the trannies and the more we elliminate torque management and lock them under full power....the more the flexplates will suffer. ks
03-17-2006, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by abc4yew
While it is true that ATS is one of the few companies that offer a SFI approved billet flexplate....they make it because high power towing trucks with a tight tranny need it. Others may use their flexplate. I can see why companies that don't have a SFI approved billet or laminated flexplate in their product line wouldn't want you to get a flexplate if the only option was one from their competition. The 48re has only been out since '03, tight trannies for these trucks have not been that popular that long maybe '01, '02. I'm sure we will be hearing more flexplate issues once these trucks get over 50k miles on them with mods. The tigher we make the trannies and the more we elliminate torque management and lock them under full power....the more the flexplates will suffer. ks
03-17-2006, 05:53 PM
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When talking to everyone, we never discussed billet flexplates, only a stronger one like BD makes for $400.
I just got off the phone with Dusty at HTS. Didn't realize he doesn't build converters. He sells Suncoast converters and said he has had problems with other brands. He does not want to name bash and wouldn't say who's he had trouble with, but only that he has never had a Suncoast fail. He also recommends the flexplate. He said that they do not break where the converter bolts are so that is not the issue. They fail around the crank bolts and rip the center out - which is what I've heard on this forum. He said he has seen '01 an d '02s with 800+ HP at the wheels with a stock flexplate, and even some '03s and maybe early '04s, but that sometime in '04 they changed them ( engine change to 600? ) and that they are too weak. He said that he has seen late '04s and '05s with 450hp at the wheels destroy the flexplate - I'll be lucky to have 400 at the wheels, yet he still recommended it. He said that an earlier flexplate will bolt right on and if a guy could find a stock one that would be fine rather than buying an aftermarket.
The funny thing is that the guys that right away say you need a flexplate never mention the input shaft unless you ask. The guys that automatically recommend the input shaft say that it is the weakest link after you replace the converter and that the flexplate is the weak link after you replace the input shaft. In other words, these guys say the input shaft is more likely to fail than the flexplate. According to their thinking it would be pointless to replace the flexplate and not the shaft. If I buy both, that's another $1000 - OUCH! I wish I knew the TRUTH about if they are needed or not. I hate to spend that kind of money for no reason.
Like I said before, I've gotten a lot of information and have learned some things, but I STILL DON"T KNOW WHAT TO DO!
I just got off the phone with Dusty at HTS. Didn't realize he doesn't build converters. He sells Suncoast converters and said he has had problems with other brands. He does not want to name bash and wouldn't say who's he had trouble with, but only that he has never had a Suncoast fail. He also recommends the flexplate. He said that they do not break where the converter bolts are so that is not the issue. They fail around the crank bolts and rip the center out - which is what I've heard on this forum. He said he has seen '01 an d '02s with 800+ HP at the wheels with a stock flexplate, and even some '03s and maybe early '04s, but that sometime in '04 they changed them ( engine change to 600? ) and that they are too weak. He said that he has seen late '04s and '05s with 450hp at the wheels destroy the flexplate - I'll be lucky to have 400 at the wheels, yet he still recommended it. He said that an earlier flexplate will bolt right on and if a guy could find a stock one that would be fine rather than buying an aftermarket.
The funny thing is that the guys that right away say you need a flexplate never mention the input shaft unless you ask. The guys that automatically recommend the input shaft say that it is the weakest link after you replace the converter and that the flexplate is the weak link after you replace the input shaft. In other words, these guys say the input shaft is more likely to fail than the flexplate. According to their thinking it would be pointless to replace the flexplate and not the shaft. If I buy both, that's another $1000 - OUCH! I wish I knew the TRUTH about if they are needed or not. I hate to spend that kind of money for no reason.
Like I said before, I've gotten a lot of information and have learned some things, but I STILL DON"T KNOW WHAT TO DO!
03-17-2006, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by omaharam
When talking to everyone, we never discussed billet flexplates, only a stronger one like BD makes for $400.
I just got off the phone with Dusty at HTS. Didn't realize he doesn't build converters. He sells Suncoast converters and said he has had problems with other brands. He does not want to name bash and wouldn't say who's he had trouble with, but only that he has never had a Suncoast fail. He also recommends the flexplate. He said that they do not break where the converter bolts are so that is not the issue. They fail around the crank bolts and rip the center out - which is what I've heard on this forum. He said he has seen '01 an d '02s with 800+ HP at the wheels with a stock flexplate, and even some '03s and maybe early '04s, but that sometime in '04 they changed them ( engine change to 600? ) and that they are too weak. He said that he has seen late '04s and '05s with 450hp at the wheels destroy the flexplate - I'll be lucky to have 400 at the wheels, yet he still recommended it. He said that an earlier flexplate will bolt right on and if a guy could find a stock one that would be fine rather than buying an aftermarket.
The funny thing is that the guys that right away say you need a flexplate never mention the input shaft unless you ask. The guys that automatically recommend the input shaft say that it is the weakest link after you replace the converter and that the flexplate is the weak link after you replace the input shaft. In other words, these guys say the input shaft is more likely to fail than the flexplate. According to their thinking it would be pointless to replace the flexplate and not the shaft. If I buy both, that's another $1000 - OUCH! I wish I knew the TRUTH about if they are needed or not. I hate to spend that kind of money for no reason.
Like I said before, I've gotten a lot of information and have learned some things, but I STILL DON"T KNOW WHAT TO DO!
I just got off the phone with Dusty at HTS. Didn't realize he doesn't build converters. He sells Suncoast converters and said he has had problems with other brands. He does not want to name bash and wouldn't say who's he had trouble with, but only that he has never had a Suncoast fail. He also recommends the flexplate. He said that they do not break where the converter bolts are so that is not the issue. They fail around the crank bolts and rip the center out - which is what I've heard on this forum. He said he has seen '01 an d '02s with 800+ HP at the wheels with a stock flexplate, and even some '03s and maybe early '04s, but that sometime in '04 they changed them ( engine change to 600? ) and that they are too weak. He said that he has seen late '04s and '05s with 450hp at the wheels destroy the flexplate - I'll be lucky to have 400 at the wheels, yet he still recommended it. He said that an earlier flexplate will bolt right on and if a guy could find a stock one that would be fine rather than buying an aftermarket.
The funny thing is that the guys that right away say you need a flexplate never mention the input shaft unless you ask. The guys that automatically recommend the input shaft say that it is the weakest link after you replace the converter and that the flexplate is the weak link after you replace the input shaft. In other words, these guys say the input shaft is more likely to fail than the flexplate. According to their thinking it would be pointless to replace the flexplate and not the shaft. If I buy both, that's another $1000 - OUCH! I wish I knew the TRUTH about if they are needed or not. I hate to spend that kind of money for no reason.
Like I said before, I've gotten a lot of information and have learned some things, but I STILL DON"T KNOW WHAT TO DO!
For what its worth I believe the truth for running no more than 100hp without problems, driving without doing any 20psi 4x4 launches but still hammering on the pedal from standstill and having fun is this.......
1) high pressure valvebody
2)triple disck tc.
3)flexplate (if for nothing else at least peace of mind)
you will not break an input shift running 100hp as i described. its not gonna happen. you can do these upgrades yourself for only 2000-2200. in my opinion you will be fine with this setup. I am running this exact setup with my edge/attitude on level 5 stacked with an mp-8 turned all the way up. I have no worries at all. I do not sledpull and I do not do 20psi launches......I know its hard to choose because everone has a differnt opinion. all you can do is gather as much info as you can and make an educated decision...luckily you have this sight or you would have to learn everything the hardway.......
and like Dusty said you could also buy a flexplate from a pre 04 truck and save a couple bucks....it wont be as strong as a laminated but it will be better than the new ones are.
03-17-2006, 07:58 PM
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Looking back over my own list, mostly I was told I don't need the shaft or the flexplate. I had specific discusions regarding the abuse of the truck and Rusty at TCS, Stephan at DTT, and Dave at Goerend basically all said that if I abuse it I could have problems with the shaft or flexplate, but that if I'm not doing high boost launches or sled pulling, that I will be ok. Both DTT and Goerend get nothing but rave revues on this forum. Rusty actually makes the billet shafts and many of the other companies selling them buy from him. He is also the only one that I know that did a stress test on the stock shaft to find its limits. If his numbers are acurate for every stock shaft made, I am fine with stock as I will not be more than 900lb/ft of torque at the crank and the stock is good to 1100 or so. So I've decided I'm not doing the billet input shaft. Now I have to decide if I believe the opinion that the flexplate is more likely to break than the shaft, or the opinion that the shaft is more likely to break - eliminating my need for one. THEN... I have to decide who's TC and VB to go with. I think it's down to either DTT or Goerend.
I'm getting closer to a final decision.
I'm getting closer to a final decision.
03-18-2006, 02:52 AM
#22
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Here's my theory on building a tranny, there's no such thing as to much. I'd rather have an overbuilt tranny than an underbuilt one. While it might cost more in the beginning, it could possibly save you a lot more in the long run. For example, if the input shaft snaps, it could take out the front pump and trash the torque converter. So not only would you have to replace the shaft, you'd have to replace the TC and front pump which would cost you more than if you had just gone ahead and changed the shaft in the beginning. If the flex plate guts itself, well, I'd hate to see what would happen with that.
03-18-2006, 04:45 AM
#23
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Of course, my whole theory is there will always be a weak link somewhere. I subscribe to the performance single dics conv. being that thay are a softer lock up, and could possibly save parts. Heres the thing, a flex plate is made to flex. you take away that flex, and you transfer the load to the next thing in line and so on. One thing most people are affraid to mention is the fact your tq conv should slip, thats right, when you apply huge amounts of torque at full throttle, something has to give, and if you put in a high pressure, non slipping billet covered tripple disc, then yes you would need an upgraded flexplate, and shafts. It's not a slipping converter that will destroy the tranny, it depends on if the conv. you are running is a performance style that can handle a certain amount of slippage without glazing and shredding apart like the factory one. I have called Tony a few imes regading the fact that I can slip the converter somewhat in me truck, and he said that is how it was desinged. But with the type of materials that go into his converters, he said they can sustain a fair amount, and in no way would it affect my warranty. I will have to say, the only time I can slip this thing is if I'm cruisin at 50-65mph and I hammer the throttle hard without getting a down shift and even then, I've never seen over 15% on my Juice monitor.
03-18-2006, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by omaharam
As far as DTT being the only "hold out", he has a completely different theory than the other guys. His opinion is that 100psi against one thick disc is stronger and more dependable than 100psi split between three thinner discs(33.3psi per disc). He aslo claimes that the extra parts inside create a flow problem for fliud entering, circulating, and exiting the converter housing. He said that eventually the middle disc will come apart because it does not get enough fluid. Also, he said that a single disc is rebuildable for about a third of the price of re-doing a 3 disc which really insn't rebuildable and your basically starting from scratch.
There are trucks with well over 10 times that amount of mileage without a hint of that problem.
03-18-2006, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by streetsmoker
Of course, my whole theory is there will always be a weak link somewhere. I subscribe to the performance single dics conv. being that thay are a softer lock up, and could possibly save parts. Heres the thing, a flex plate is made to flex. you take away that flex, and you transfer the load to the next thing in line and so on. One thing most people are affraid to mention is the fact your tq conv should slip, thats right, when you apply huge amounts of torque at full throttle, something has to give, and if you put in a high pressure, non slipping billet covered tripple disc, then yes you would need an upgraded flexplate, and shafts. It's not a slipping converter that will destroy the tranny, it depends on if the conv. you are running is a performance style that can handle a certain amount of slippage without glazing and shredding apart like the factory one. I have called Tony a few imes regading the fact that I can slip the converter somewhat in me truck, and he said that is how it was desinged. But with the type of materials that go into his converters, he said they can sustain a fair amount, and in no way would it affect my warranty. I will have to say, the only time I can slip this thing is if I'm cruisin at 50-65mph and I hammer the throttle hard without getting a down shift and even then, I've never seen over 15% on my Juice monitor.
How do you know its the converter slipping? its way more likely that you are slipping your clutches than the converter. I have the Dunrite triple running edge/attitude stacked with the mp-8 both maxed out and I only see 5% slippage ever. 15% seems pretty high.
03-18-2006, 08:43 AM
#26
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The One area I share the most concern is the Shop that Promote"s I can do the same for Less,This is just not the case Don"t be a victim of such deception,Now concerning the Flex plate,if your concern about vibration the the solid plate differently will increase it and yes you can feel it.If you look at my 2003 in truck Gallery you will see a Txi-axle Dump GVW at the scale 24,000/30,000 I have scale tickets to prove this.Back in Dec 2002 no flex Plate was available, so at that time we did a complete dare down and rebuild on stock shafts with ATS TC/VB T-Commander, Truck only had 3,000 miles on it ,Truck goes on Dyno this Week (Hopefully) My goal is 600HP Max,I generally operate around 425Hp.Over three years of testing and Not one issue,(Now when you compete or operate off-road this is entirely different scenario).
I like all the companies mention in this thread,DTT is the most verbal and I can see why they believe in what they sell and justifiably so, they have years of development and success and freedom of speech.I also Like Dave Goerend T&C rolls over many customers to him and no complaints (Truck Specialties is a T&C Dealer in Clear Lake Iowa).One Reason we are a ATS Dealer is the Commander and Triple Lock.
I like all the companies mention in this thread,DTT is the most verbal and I can see why they believe in what they sell and justifiably so, they have years of development and success and freedom of speech.I also Like Dave Goerend T&C rolls over many customers to him and no complaints (Truck Specialties is a T&C Dealer in Clear Lake Iowa).One Reason we are a ATS Dealer is the Commander and Triple Lock.
03-18-2006, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by BigBlue
Here's my theory on building a tranny, there's no such thing as to much. I'd rather have an overbuilt tranny than an underbuilt one. While it might cost more in the beginning, it could possibly save you a lot more in the long run. For example, if the input shaft snaps, it could take out the front pump and trash the torque converter. So not only would you have to replace the shaft, you'd have to replace the TC and front pump which would cost you more than if you had just gone ahead and changed the shaft in the beginning. If the flex plate guts itself, well, I'd hate to see what would happen with that.
Banshee:
Of course I don't know if it's true or not, but, Stephan at DTT specifically mentioned the ATS and that he had one cut open in his shop right now that is trashed. The hard part about all this is knowing who is being honest regardless of sales, or who is trying to make the sale.
twest:
I don't subsribe to your idea that less expensive means a lesser quality. Back around '90 there were a lot of guys building small block chevys that said you needed a 4bolt main block, and blah, blah, blah to make a strong engine without issues. They were spending $3000 on an engine. I took a 2bolt block and used cheaper, but quality, parts and for $1400 had an engine that pushed my Camaro to low 12s for 2 years without ever a problem or teardown. These guys are making a killing on these converters priced at $1200. They could certainly provide the exact same quality for less money, but with less in their pocket.
It's also funny that you mention DTT and Goerend. These are the two I have narrowed it down to, and yet they have basically opposite thoughts on application.
03-18-2006, 03:37 PM
#28
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Quote by "omaharam::
"Stephen at DTT specifically mentioned the ATS and that
he had one cut open in his shop right now that is trashed."
_________________________________________________
omaharam:
I really don't want to start a "tranny war" here, as I want you to get whatever transmission you feel is the best FOR YOU! But,...IMO,.....and FWIW,.....Bill and Stephan Kondolay are going to tell you anything negative they can about ATS because they never have and never will like them!
As you pointed out, they are competitors and want each and every consumer to buy THEIR product. All I am trying to say is to think about that as you try to make your choice. The "tactics" used by DTT against the triple disc converters just don't hold up anymore and "banshee" brings up some good points in his post to you on why that is. There are just WAY too many of them out there now and they are holding up darn well under some pretty extreme conditions,.....like Jeff Garmon's DHRA Drag Truck (Suncoast), Darren Morrisons DHRA Drag Truck (Suncoast) or Scott Bentz's DHRA Diesel Rail Dragster (ATS). All of those listed are triple disc converters!
Also, I have personally seen a few DTT converters at ATS's facility that were "trashed" too,.....so don't let them tell you they have no failures or less problems than the competition, because their units experience problems just like all the rest! I know one DTR Member here that has had his DTT unit out of his truck four (4) times "omaharam."
The fact of the matter is,......all of the companies have problems with their products occasionally. I sincerely hope you find what you are looking for and once the unit is in, that you have very good luck with it!
--------
John_P
Quote by "omaharam::
"Stephen at DTT specifically mentioned the ATS and that
he had one cut open in his shop right now that is trashed."
_________________________________________________
omaharam:
I really don't want to start a "tranny war" here, as I want you to get whatever transmission you feel is the best FOR YOU!
But,...IMO,.....and FWIW,.....Bill and Stephan Kondolay are going to tell you anything negative they can about ATS because they never have and never will like them! As you pointed out, they are competitors and want each and every consumer to buy THEIR product. All I am trying to say is to think about that as you try to make your choice. The "tactics" used by DTT against the triple disc converters just don't hold up anymore and "banshee" brings up some good points in his post to you on why that is. There are just WAY too many of them out there now and they are holding up darn well under some pretty extreme conditions,.....like Jeff Garmon's DHRA Drag Truck (Suncoast), Darren Morrisons DHRA Drag Truck (Suncoast) or Scott Bentz's DHRA Diesel Rail Dragster (ATS). All of those listed are triple disc converters!
Also, I have personally seen a few DTT converters at ATS's facility that were "trashed" too,.....so don't let them tell you they have no failures or less problems than the competition, because their units experience problems just like all the rest! I know one DTR Member here that has had his DTT unit out of his truck four (4) times "omaharam."
The fact of the matter is,......all of the companies have problems with their products occasionally. I sincerely hope you find what you are looking for and once the unit is in, that you have very good luck with it!
--------
John_P
03-18-2006, 05:05 PM
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Hey all
I just wanted to make a short post in thanks to all who have chimed in with opinions and experiences, as well as the PMs.
In talking about all this to the wife today ( who makes a larger portion of our income - sugar momma
) she initially didn't want me to spend a whole lot if I could help it, she told me to just go ahead and buy the flexplate and input shaft so we don't ever have to worry about it. I love her!
Now I think I'm going to call my top runners back and ask a few questions that I have thought of in the mean time, and get some parts coming. Besides - you never know when I might decide I want more power - SHHHH! don't tell the wife.
I just wanted to make a short post in thanks to all who have chimed in with opinions and experiences, as well as the PMs.
In talking about all this to the wife today ( who makes a larger portion of our income - sugar momma
) she initially didn't want me to spend a whole lot if I could help it, she told me to just go ahead and buy the flexplate and input shaft so we don't ever have to worry about it. I love her!Now I think I'm going to call my top runners back and ask a few questions that I have thought of in the mean time, and get some parts coming. Besides - you never know when I might decide I want more power - SHHHH! don't tell the wife.
03-18-2006, 05:32 PM
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most multi disk companies would like to see a billet plate....but for reasons not yest brought up. The extra weight of a triple with a billet front cover!! Stock plates will flex too much and the added weight will casue havok on the pump and front seal if the flexplate can't control it!!
