No more Cummins in '09?
11-13-2007, 09:20 AM
#63
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Ford, Chevy, Dodge are way behind in diesel technology, its sad. The rest of the world mainly use diesel. The German government invested heavily in diesel technology in the 90's and turned over the info for free to only thier auto manufactures, who are now way ahead of us. I drove a Mercedes Benz diesel in Germany, mid-sized car that was putting out about 150 hp got me 43mph to the gallon at about 90 mph on the autobahn and the engine is about the size of a honda goldwing
It's not so much the OEMs that you mention that is keeping diesel technoligy down in the USA. It is the EPA. If I recall right, there are two states that outlaw diesel cars. Look to the problems Jeep has been going through trying to put out diesel powered Jeeps.
We rebuilt a Toyota Landcruiser last winter with a diesel. Had to get parts out of Canada or Australia, because Toyota was not allowed to sell them here in the states.
It is hard to keep track of who owns who any more. I don't think you can get a Cummins in a Freightshaker because they prefer to use their own engines, Detroits and Mercedes. That is just what I think, no proof of it. And for the same reason I keep waiting to hear about Detroit or Mercede engine in Dodge trucks. Call that a fear.
Mack and International were the two USA truck makers that also made their own engines. Good ol EPA put an end to Mack making their own engines. Mack didn't want or could not keep up with this emission stuff. We all know the struggles International has been having with the V engines and keeping up with the EPA standards. I am hoping with them going to common rail on the V engines pulls them through.
Newest rumor I am aware of, International is in talks with GMC to buy GMC's medium duty line.
11-13-2007, 09:58 AM
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Ford, Chevy, Dodge are way behind in diesel technology, its sad. The rest of the world mainly use diesel. The German government invested heavily in diesel technology in the 90's and turned over the info for free to only thier auto manufactures, who are now way ahead of us. I drove a Mercedes Benz diesel in Germany, mid-sized car that was putting out about 150 hp got me 43mph to the gallon at about 90 mph on the autobahn and the engine is about the size of a honda goldwing
What specific technology do you thing that Mercedes had that Internation, Cummins, and Isuzu don't have?
Just because they built a car for fuel economy instead of towing/hauling does NOT mean they are "way ahead" in terms of technology.
What is sad is your lack of due dilligence before you trash the home team
11-13-2007, 10:34 AM
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My wife has an 07 MB ML320, which is the mid-size SUV with a turbo diesel in it. It runs great, excellent power, tows up to 5K and get 23 mpg city and 32 mpg highway.
But, it doesn't have any technology I'm aware of that isn't already available to everyone else. It has common rail direct injection, vgt turbo and the same Blutec emissions systems that we have on our trucks.
I lived in Germany 3 years. The govt didn't do any secret research on diesel engine technology. They DID do a lot of very public research on making bio-diesel from non petroleum sources. As a result, most fields you see in Germany are growing a bright yellow plant that is called Rapeweed. They use it to make biodiesel and it apparently works pretty good.
The biggest reason that diesels are much more popular almost every where in the world other than the US, is because one for one comparison they get better fuel economy and produce less emissions than a comparable gas vehicle. As a result, most of those other governments subsidize diesel fuel to make it much cheaper than gas thus giving people an incentive to not buy gas vehicles.
But, it doesn't have any technology I'm aware of that isn't already available to everyone else. It has common rail direct injection, vgt turbo and the same Blutec emissions systems that we have on our trucks.
I lived in Germany 3 years. The govt didn't do any secret research on diesel engine technology. They DID do a lot of very public research on making bio-diesel from non petroleum sources. As a result, most fields you see in Germany are growing a bright yellow plant that is called Rapeweed. They use it to make biodiesel and it apparently works pretty good.
The biggest reason that diesels are much more popular almost every where in the world other than the US, is because one for one comparison they get better fuel economy and produce less emissions than a comparable gas vehicle. As a result, most of those other governments subsidize diesel fuel to make it much cheaper than gas thus giving people an incentive to not buy gas vehicles.
11-13-2007, 10:55 AM
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The 2007 LMM duramax is literally an LBZ dmax simply with a bigger EGR cooler, intake throttle body, and DPF bolted on.If the duramax had had a complete redesign for the 2007 model year (like the 6.7 and 6.4), im sure it would have met 2010 emmisisons too...why Ford went thru a complete redesign in 2007 WITHOUT going the extra mile to plan for the future and make it 2010 compliant is beyond me!!!
ben
11-13-2007, 11:05 AM
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The Rapeweed is interesting. Thanks.
I read a story on MSN a few months ago, it was about Europes need for Bio diesel, and how more of the rain forests were being mowed down to plant crops to support this need. Conteracting the fuels ability to reduce green house gases. I felt it was sad, because the USA already has many acres of farm land not being used, and maybe even farmers getting paid by the gov not to plant crops.
There is little doubt in my mind our diesel engines could get a lot better mileage if it was not for the emission standards. Question is simply what is more important. The engine makers had to reduce the effecentcy(sorry) of the engines to meet the standards. The idea is to put the pollution into the oil instead of the air. This is why for many years a DT-466 would start in below zero temps without starting aids. But now the new ones require starting aids in cold weather climates. International had to lower the compression and change the cylinder head chamber to meet the 04 standards.
My hopes are as new tech comes around, the engines can once again become more effeciant.
I read a story on MSN a few months ago, it was about Europes need for Bio diesel, and how more of the rain forests were being mowed down to plant crops to support this need. Conteracting the fuels ability to reduce green house gases. I felt it was sad, because the USA already has many acres of farm land not being used, and maybe even farmers getting paid by the gov not to plant crops.
There is little doubt in my mind our diesel engines could get a lot better mileage if it was not for the emission standards. Question is simply what is more important. The engine makers had to reduce the effecentcy(sorry) of the engines to meet the standards. The idea is to put the pollution into the oil instead of the air. This is why for many years a DT-466 would start in below zero temps without starting aids. But now the new ones require starting aids in cold weather climates. International had to lower the compression and change the cylinder head chamber to meet the 04 standards.
My hopes are as new tech comes around, the engines can once again become more effeciant.
11-13-2007, 11:32 AM
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It's not so much the OEMs that you mention that is keeping diesel technoligy down in the USA. It is the EPA. If I recall right, there are two states that outlaw diesel cars. Look to the problems Jeep has been going through trying to put out diesel powered Jeeps.
We rebuilt a Toyota Landcruiser last winter with a diesel. Had to get parts out of Canada or Australia, because Toyota was not allowed to sell them here in the states.
It is hard to keep track of who owns who any more. I don't think you can get a Cummins in a Freightshaker because they prefer to use their own engines, Detroits and Mercedes. That is just what I think, no proof of it. And for the same reason I keep waiting to hear about Detroit or Mercede engine in Dodge trucks. Call that a fear.
Mack and International were the two USA truck makers that also made their own engines. Good ol EPA put an end to Mack making their own engines. Mack didn't want or could not keep up with this emission stuff. We all know the struggles International has been having with the V engines and keeping up with the EPA standards. I am hoping with them going to common rail on the V engines pulls them through.
Newest rumor I am aware of, International is in talks with GMC to buy GMC's medium duty line.
We rebuilt a Toyota Landcruiser last winter with a diesel. Had to get parts out of Canada or Australia, because Toyota was not allowed to sell them here in the states.
It is hard to keep track of who owns who any more. I don't think you can get a Cummins in a Freightshaker because they prefer to use their own engines, Detroits and Mercedes. That is just what I think, no proof of it. And for the same reason I keep waiting to hear about Detroit or Mercede engine in Dodge trucks. Call that a fear.
Mack and International were the two USA truck makers that also made their own engines. Good ol EPA put an end to Mack making their own engines. Mack didn't want or could not keep up with this emission stuff. We all know the struggles International has been having with the V engines and keeping up with the EPA standards. I am hoping with them going to common rail on the V engines pulls them through.
Newest rumor I am aware of, International is in talks with GMC to buy GMC's medium duty line.
11-13-2007, 12:39 PM
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You need to remember that for the most part, the duramax design has remained the same since 2001. It is the only diesel of the big three that didnt need to be completely redesigned for the 2007 emmissions. The 2007 LMM duramax is literally an LBZ dmax simply with a bigger EGR cooler, intake throttle body, and DPF bolted on.
If the duramax had had a complete redesign for the 2007 model year (like the 6.7 and 6.4), im sure it would have met 2010 emmisisons too...why Ford went thru a complete redesign in 2007 WITHOUT going the extra mile to plan for the future and make it 2010 compliant is beyond me!!!
ben
The 2007 LMM duramax is literally an LBZ dmax simply with a bigger EGR cooler, intake throttle body, and DPF bolted on.If the duramax had had a complete redesign for the 2007 model year (like the 6.7 and 6.4), im sure it would have met 2010 emmisisons too...why Ford went thru a complete redesign in 2007 WITHOUT going the extra mile to plan for the future and make it 2010 compliant is beyond me!!!
ben
The reason Ford(Navistar) only made a 2007 compliant engine is because they are not going to be using the 6.4 for 2010... Ford is dropping Navistar and doing in house design for both the HD diesels and the light-duty diesels.
11-13-2007, 04:05 PM
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And there havent been any diesel emission regulations to deal with in those 20 years! 
1989-1991??...change (intercooler added in 1991.5 I think??)
1994 12v...change (P pump, diff turbo I think)
1994+ 12v to 24v...change (12 more valves, VP44, injectors, pistons, very significant change)
24v to CR...change (pistons, injectors, turbo, etc change)
LB7 to LLY dmax...change (injectors, heads, turbo)
LLY to LBZ dmax...change (injectors, heads, intake manifold)
LBZ to LMM dmax...change (throttle body added, EGR cooler updated, DPF added)
I would say they have had an almost equal amount of changes...JMO tho!!
ben
1989-1991??...change (intercooler added in 1991.5 I think??)
1994 12v...change (P pump, diff turbo I think)
1994+ 12v to 24v...change (12 more valves, VP44, injectors, pistons, very significant change)
24v to CR...change (pistons, injectors, turbo, etc change)
LB7 to LLY dmax...change (injectors, heads, turbo)
LLY to LBZ dmax...change (injectors, heads, intake manifold)
LBZ to LMM dmax...change (throttle body added, EGR cooler updated, DPF added)
I would say they have had an almost equal amount of changes...JMO tho!!
ben
11-13-2007, 05:25 PM
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11-13-2007, 09:13 PM
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And there havent been any diesel emission regulations to deal with in those 20 years!
1989-1991??...change (intercooler added in 1991.5 I think??)
1994 12v...change (P pump, diff turbo I think)
1994+ 12v to 24v...change (12 more valves, VP44, injectors, pistons, very significant change)
24v to CR...change (pistons, injectors, turbo, etc change)
LB7 to LLY dmax...change (injectors, heads, turbo)
LLY to LBZ dmax...change (injectors, heads, intake manifold)
LBZ to LMM dmax...change (throttle body added, EGR cooler updated, DPF added)
I would say they have had an almost equal amount of changes...JMO tho!!
ben
1989-1991??...change (intercooler added in 1991.5 I think??)
1994 12v...change (P pump, diff turbo I think)
1994+ 12v to 24v...change (12 more valves, VP44, injectors, pistons, very significant change)
24v to CR...change (pistons, injectors, turbo, etc change)
LB7 to LLY dmax...change (injectors, heads, turbo)
LLY to LBZ dmax...change (injectors, heads, intake manifold)
LBZ to LMM dmax...change (throttle body added, EGR cooler updated, DPF added)
I would say they have had an almost equal amount of changes...JMO tho!!
ben
11-13-2007, 09:46 PM
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I wasnt very clear in my description...yes I know the ctd went to 24v in 98.5
Yes, the LBZ does have different pistons and rods, and a slightly different block, BUT everything is still interchangable...I could run LBZ pistons and rods in my LLY block and crank if I wanted to, etc...
Yes, the LBZ does have different pistons and rods, and a slightly different block, BUT everything is still interchangable...I could run LBZ pistons and rods in my LLY block and crank if I wanted to, etc...
11-14-2007, 02:55 AM
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Ford uses Cummins in the F650+ trucks. the 450 and 550 use the 6.4l
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