I cant get all my engine oil to drain out!
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I cant get all my engine oil to drain out!
I am not new to working on engines (or biulding them for that matter) but I am baffled. I have a 06 3500 quad cab. 73k miles. no trouble. the last 2 oil changes it only takes 2.5 gallons of oil to get to full and it is all black. It seems I am leaving about .5 gal old oil in there and it is contaminating my new oil immediately. I thought maybe I had the truck not level on the last change so this time I made sure it was level and the same thing just happened. Is there 2 oil drain plugs? I looked at the oil pan but cant find another one. I am confused.
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From: NW Indiana
Also, your oil will be black immediately all the time. Get used to it... cause that ain't gonna change. Between the filter and the various journals inside the block is where the missing oil is hiding.
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From: McDonough GA
Dipsticks have been know to be off and\or mismarked. Generally, warm engine and 1/2 hour drain time will get the bulk of it.
Change the filter and add 3 gallons. Run the negine to make sure you get oil pressure and warm it a little bit.
Shutoff and let set for 5 minutes then check the oil. Where the level is likely your full mark.
As long as it doesn't blow a 1/2 quart out of the engine in the first 500 miles its not over full.
Change the filter and add 3 gallons. Run the negine to make sure you get oil pressure and warm it a little bit.
Shutoff and let set for 5 minutes then check the oil. Where the level is likely your full mark.
As long as it doesn't blow a 1/2 quart out of the engine in the first 500 miles its not over full.
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From: Claxton, GA
Get used to the black oil. It's normal for 04.5 up trucks. As soon as you pour it in, it is black. This is due to emissions.
Yeap, 3 gallons with a filter change. Don't run it low on oil or else.
Yeap, 3 gallons with a filter change. Don't run it low on oil or else.
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thanks for the replies, that makes more sense. I was pulling my hair out. I will have to add another .5 gallon. So after I add 3 gallons I will make note of where it is on my dipstick and use that in the future. thanks again.
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From: McDonough GA
You might try running a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil in with the engine oil to clean up a sludge that may be influencing the reading. Normally a problem shows as no or low reading on the dip stick, but, there is a possibility oil could be held up also. Something else to try.
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From: Kuna, Idaho
I am always amazed at how many people think that crankcase capacity is oil change capacity and that all the dipsticks are wrong.. seriously it boggles the mind!
There will always be oil left in the block, always. The oil cooler, head, journals all have some oil left in them, and the pan design doesn't allow all the oil to drain out.
So why would you knowingly overfill your motor? As with ANY motor put about 90% of the oil that is called for into the motor, start it and let the filter fill. Shut it off and let it sit for 15 minutes and now add oil to the middle of the safe mark.
Adding 3 gallons blindly will always result in an overfilled condition, overfilled can be just as bad as underfilled.
The black is 100% normal, really nothing you can do about it.
There will always be oil left in the block, always. The oil cooler, head, journals all have some oil left in them, and the pan design doesn't allow all the oil to drain out.
So why would you knowingly overfill your motor? As with ANY motor put about 90% of the oil that is called for into the motor, start it and let the filter fill. Shut it off and let it sit for 15 minutes and now add oil to the middle of the safe mark.
Adding 3 gallons blindly will always result in an overfilled condition, overfilled can be just as bad as underfilled.
The black is 100% normal, really nothing you can do about it.
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From: McDonough GA
No it doesn't due to the conditions during running. Even 14 quarts is not neccessarily over full. To determine what an overfull condition is you have to define it.
For the sake of argument lets say that crank journals hitting the oil in the sump during a running condition is "over full". Where is that mark on the dip stick? Its not there because you can't measure that point with the engine running. The actual level of the sump is up to 3 quarts lower at run time as opposed to engine off. If you want to prove that get an oil pan and fill it with 3 gallons of fluid.
The safe range on the dip stick is an approximation of oil level when the easily drained oil has settled to the sump. Given all other things are equal, that occurs at about 5 minutes after engine off at operating temp. A 1/2 hour or more of drain back time will add more but thats does not figure into oil levels because it is not there during engine operation.
Try this, drain engine for at least 1/2 hour when up to temp. Change filter and add 3 gallons of oil, then:
Warm engine and oil to operating temp again
Shut it off and immediately check the oil level
Check the oil level after about 5 mintues
Check the oil level after 1/2 hours
The results of this on 4 different trucks (92, 93, 01, 05) have always been consistent.
Immediate check after engine off - close to bottom of the safe range
After 5 minutes - 1/2 to full of the safe range
After 30 minutes - at or over the top of the safe range
The variance across trucks has always been the same after oil change, 1/4 of the safe range. Not all dip sticks are marked the same in every engine. The only other variance noted is a tendency of the older engine to leak a quart or 2 over 7k miles. One of these days I will find and plug ALL the leaks.
As long as it is not taking 1 or 2 quarts off the top in the first couple hundred miles or so, it is not over full.
To set the full mark at the middle of safe range after 30 minutes of drain time is shorting the capcity about 2 quarts. Not a big deal in normal operation, but, begs the question: Why?
If that is after 5 minutes then it is about as close to correct as possible. The safe level is very dependent on drainback and sample time.
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From: Kuna, Idaho
Sump capacity is the amount of oil a motor holds, and takes to get to the appropriate running level when the motor is dry, not when drained.
Its amazing all the ways people convince themselves and others that the dipstick is wrong, and from my experience it's only in these Cummins forums. It doesn't happen in the other forums I have been a part of.
The best way to check oil is the middle of the safe range when cold and fully drained. This is what the dipstick has been calibrated for. I am dead center of the safe range when cold and about 1/8" below the top of the safe zone when warm. That takes about 14qts with my bypass.
Just adding 12 qts and calling that level "full" is not correct, regardless of how many ways you try to justify it.
2nd gen's only had a capacity of 11 qts, so 12qts was already a 1qt overfill in addition to what was left in the block.
Based on info from Cummins the block capacity is approx 1qt, so on a standard oil change all you need to add is 11qts for a 12qt system, thou this can be increased if you drain hot and overnight. The reason people get away with adding 12qts blindly is becuase the top of the safe range on the dipstick is 13qts total.
No where does it say to add oil based on the capacity, it says to ensure its in the safe range after draining 15 minutes.
Its amazing all the ways people convince themselves and others that the dipstick is wrong, and from my experience it's only in these Cummins forums. It doesn't happen in the other forums I have been a part of.
The best way to check oil is the middle of the safe range when cold and fully drained. This is what the dipstick has been calibrated for. I am dead center of the safe range when cold and about 1/8" below the top of the safe zone when warm. That takes about 14qts with my bypass.
Just adding 12 qts and calling that level "full" is not correct, regardless of how many ways you try to justify it.
2nd gen's only had a capacity of 11 qts, so 12qts was already a 1qt overfill in addition to what was left in the block.
Based on info from Cummins the block capacity is approx 1qt, so on a standard oil change all you need to add is 11qts for a 12qt system, thou this can be increased if you drain hot and overnight. The reason people get away with adding 12qts blindly is becuase the top of the safe range on the dipstick is 13qts total.
Checking Oil Level
To assure proper lubrication of your vehicle’s engine, the
engine oil must be maintained at the correct level. Check
the oil level at regular intervals. The best time to check
the oil level is before starting the engine after it has been
parked overnight. When checking oil after operating the
engine, first ensure the engine is at full operating temperature,
then wait at least 15 minutes after engine
shutdown to check the oil.
Checking the vehicle while it’s on level ground will also
improve the accuracy of the oil level readings. Add oil
only when the level on the dipstick is below the “ADD”
mark. The total capacity from the low mark to the high
mark is 2 quarts (1.9 liters).
Never operate the engine with oil level below the “ADD”
mark or above the upper “SAFE” mark.
CAUTION!
Overfilling or underfilling the crankcase will cause
oil aeration or loss of oil pressure. This could damage
your engine.
To assure proper lubrication of your vehicle’s engine, the
engine oil must be maintained at the correct level. Check
the oil level at regular intervals. The best time to check
the oil level is before starting the engine after it has been
parked overnight. When checking oil after operating the
engine, first ensure the engine is at full operating temperature,
then wait at least 15 minutes after engine
shutdown to check the oil.
Checking the vehicle while it’s on level ground will also
improve the accuracy of the oil level readings. Add oil
only when the level on the dipstick is below the “ADD”
mark. The total capacity from the low mark to the high
mark is 2 quarts (1.9 liters).
Never operate the engine with oil level below the “ADD”
mark or above the upper “SAFE” mark.
CAUTION!
Overfilling or underfilling the crankcase will cause
oil aeration or loss of oil pressure. This could damage
your engine.
OIL
STANDARD PROCEDURE
STANDARD PROCEDURE - ENGINE OIL LEVEL
CAUTION: Do not overfill crankcase with engine
oil, oil foaming and oil pressure loss can result.
To ensure proper lubrication of an engine, the engine
oil must be maintained at an acceptable level. The
acceptable oil level is in the SAFE RANGE (3) on the
engine oil dipstick.
1. Position vehicle on level surface.
2. With engine OFF, allow approximately 15 minutes
for oil to settle to bottom of crankcase, remove
engine oil dipstick.
3. Wipe dipstick clean.
4. Replace dipstick and verify it is seated in the tube.
5. Remove dipstick, with handle held above the tip, take oil level reading.
6. Add oil only if level is below the SAFE RANGE area on the dipstick.
7. Replace dipstick.
STANDARD PROCEDURE - ENGINE OIL SERVICE
WARNING: HOT OIL CAN CAUSE PERSONAL INJURY.
NOTE: Change engine oil and filter at intervals specified in the owner’s manual.
1. Operate the engine until the water temperature reaches 60°C (140°F). Shut the engine off.
2. Use a container that can hold at least 14 liters (15 quarts) to hold the used oil. Remove the oil drain plug and
drain the used engine oil into the container.
3. Always check the condition of the used oil. This can give you an indication of engine problems that might exist.
² Thin, black oil indicates fuel dilution.
² Milky discoloration indicates coolant dilution.
4. Clean the area around the oil filter head. Remove the filter (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/LUBRICATION/OIL FILTER -
REMOVAL).
5. Install new oil filter (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/LUBRICATION/OIL FILTER - INSTALLATION).
6. Clean the drain plug and the sealing surface of the pan. Check the condition of the threads and sealing surface
on the oil pan and drain plug.
7. Install the drain plug. Tighten the plug to 50 N·m (37 ft. lbs.) torque.
8. Use only High-Quality Multi-Viscosity lubricating oil in the Cummins Turbo Diesel engine. Choose the correct oil
for the operating conditions (Refer to LUBRICATION & MAINTENANCE/FLUID TYPES - DESCRIPTION).
9. Fill the engine with the correct grade of new oil (Refer to LUBRICATION & MAINTENANCE/FLUID CAPACITIES
- SPECIFICATIONS).
10. Start the engine and operate it at idle for several minutes. Check for leaks at the filter and drain plug.
11. Stop engine. Wait 15 minutes to allow the oil to drain back to the pan and check the level again.
STANDARD PROCEDURE
STANDARD PROCEDURE - ENGINE OIL LEVEL
CAUTION: Do not overfill crankcase with engine
oil, oil foaming and oil pressure loss can result.
To ensure proper lubrication of an engine, the engine
oil must be maintained at an acceptable level. The
acceptable oil level is in the SAFE RANGE (3) on the
engine oil dipstick.
1. Position vehicle on level surface.
2. With engine OFF, allow approximately 15 minutes
for oil to settle to bottom of crankcase, remove
engine oil dipstick.
3. Wipe dipstick clean.
4. Replace dipstick and verify it is seated in the tube.
5. Remove dipstick, with handle held above the tip, take oil level reading.
6. Add oil only if level is below the SAFE RANGE area on the dipstick.
7. Replace dipstick.
STANDARD PROCEDURE - ENGINE OIL SERVICE
WARNING: HOT OIL CAN CAUSE PERSONAL INJURY.
NOTE: Change engine oil and filter at intervals specified in the owner’s manual.
1. Operate the engine until the water temperature reaches 60°C (140°F). Shut the engine off.
2. Use a container that can hold at least 14 liters (15 quarts) to hold the used oil. Remove the oil drain plug and
drain the used engine oil into the container.
3. Always check the condition of the used oil. This can give you an indication of engine problems that might exist.
² Thin, black oil indicates fuel dilution.
² Milky discoloration indicates coolant dilution.
4. Clean the area around the oil filter head. Remove the filter (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/LUBRICATION/OIL FILTER -
REMOVAL).
5. Install new oil filter (Refer to 9 - ENGINE/LUBRICATION/OIL FILTER - INSTALLATION).
6. Clean the drain plug and the sealing surface of the pan. Check the condition of the threads and sealing surface
on the oil pan and drain plug.
7. Install the drain plug. Tighten the plug to 50 N·m (37 ft. lbs.) torque.
8. Use only High-Quality Multi-Viscosity lubricating oil in the Cummins Turbo Diesel engine. Choose the correct oil
for the operating conditions (Refer to LUBRICATION & MAINTENANCE/FLUID TYPES - DESCRIPTION).
9. Fill the engine with the correct grade of new oil (Refer to LUBRICATION & MAINTENANCE/FLUID CAPACITIES
- SPECIFICATIONS).
10. Start the engine and operate it at idle for several minutes. Check for leaks at the filter and drain plug.
11. Stop engine. Wait 15 minutes to allow the oil to drain back to the pan and check the level again.
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From: McDonough GA
Based on info from Cummins the block capacity is approx 1qt, so on a standard oil change all you need to add is 11qts for a 12qt system, thou this can be increased if you drain hot and overnight. The reason people get away with adding 12qts blindly is becuase the top of the safe range on the dipstick is 13qts total.
As the text you posted proves, they purposely do not list amounts because of the lack of knowledge how to check oil level, the differences between sump capacity and total oil capacity, and what really happens when the engine is running. Trying to interpret conclusions without facts just leads to a incorrect hypothesis. Cummins has listed 12 quarts with a filter for years on the 6bt and ISB. This is backed up by continuous 2nd party verification. Its hard to argue with validation, no matter what some forums seem to think.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,290
Likes: 0
From: MN
C'mon, thats just being obtuse. There IS a difference between sump capacity and engine oil capacity. Not just with a diesel, with every engine.
Nope, many sources will verify the 2nd gen engine has the same capacity, 12 quarts with a filter. There was a TSB for the later 24V engines that said oil change should only take 11 quarts because there were rare instances of some engines loosing a quart quickly. I will leave you to discover exactly what the problem ended up being. Hint: think crank case vent position.
Starting with invalid assumptions leads to invalid conclusions.
As the text you posted proves, they purposely do not list amounts because of the lack of knowledge how to check oil level, the differences between sump capacity and total oil capacity, and what really happens when the engine is running. Trying to interpret conclusions without facts just leads to a incorrect hypothesis. Cummins has listed 12 quarts with a filter for years on the 6bt and ISB. This is backed up by continuous 2nd party verification. Its hard to argue with validation, no matter what some forums seem to think.
Nope, many sources will verify the 2nd gen engine has the same capacity, 12 quarts with a filter. There was a TSB for the later 24V engines that said oil change should only take 11 quarts because there were rare instances of some engines loosing a quart quickly. I will leave you to discover exactly what the problem ended up being. Hint: think crank case vent position.
Starting with invalid assumptions leads to invalid conclusions.
As the text you posted proves, they purposely do not list amounts because of the lack of knowledge how to check oil level, the differences between sump capacity and total oil capacity, and what really happens when the engine is running. Trying to interpret conclusions without facts just leads to a incorrect hypothesis. Cummins has listed 12 quarts with a filter for years on the 6bt and ISB. This is backed up by continuous 2nd party verification. Its hard to argue with validation, no matter what some forums seem to think.
My FSM even list 11 qts /W filter
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,737
Likes: 4
From: Kuna, Idaho
Cummins doesn't even offer the ISB with a sump as small as the one in our trucks.
Nope, many sources will verify the 2nd gen engine has the same capacity, 12 quarts with a filter. There was a TSB for the later 24V engines that said oil change should only take 11 quarts because there were rare instances of some engines loosing a quart quickly. I will leave you to discover exactly what the problem ended up being. Hint: think crank case vent position.
Early 24V's had improper dipsticks that allowed the enigne to be overfilled by 1.5 qts, the TSB stated it was not enough to cause damage under normal use but could. (Another reason why people that add 12 qts and feel the dipstick is wrong aren't doing damage).
1989 - 1993: 12 quarts
1994: 10 Quarts with the original dipstick (should be replaced)
11 quarts with new dipstick - Cummins p/n 3928740, Dodge p/n 4796874
11 quarts by remarking original dipstick "full" to 1 3/16" above add mark.
1995 - 1998: 11 quarts
1998+ ISB: 11 quarts
NOTE: there are ISB's with the wrong dipstick. See TSB 09-06-98
http://dodgeram.info/tsb/1998/09-06-98.htm
http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2002/09-002-02.htm
As the text you posted proves, they purposely do not list amounts because of the lack of knowledge how to check oil level, the differences between sump capacity and total oil capacity, and what really happens when the engine is running. Trying to interpret conclusions without facts just leads to a incorrect hypothesis. Cummins has listed 12 quarts with a filter for years on the 6bt and ISB. This is backed up by continuous 2nd party verification. Its hard to argue with validation, no matter what some forums seem to think.
Where is the validation for 12 qts, all the industrial ISB's use much more oil.. at least the ones I have Cummins specs for. I also only can find data on 11 qts for 94-02 trucks. There could be a TSB I can't find, but nothing I find says to use 11 qts for the crank cast vent, it simply states the capacity as 11 qts including the filter.
Your data has no validation, just your belief that adding 3 gallons and ignoring the dipstick is the way to go.. Yet the dipstick is the only factual basis to go on. There has been no TSB effecting 3rd gen motors to improper dipstick markings.
I have offered far more validation than you have.
