Blown Oil Fitting, Didn't Notice. Time for a New Engine...Questions
 

Hi all....worst nightmare. Was cruising up the highway at 120k, having a great time. Tunes up.

Then a vibration/loss of power. Radio off....clunk clunk...seize...no oil pressure. ***! Oil in the engine bay, $2 oil fitting broke. No oil in pan...done. F!

So, now that I get to spend some money on my truck, a few questions:

1) Will any year common rail 5.9 fit up and work with my accessories? I'm aware of the different power levels.
2) What's the best way to evaluate a non running engine (Probably looking at a wrecker engine). If it was a gasser I'd do a leak down etc, but with a diesel??

At the moment I'm stuck under 1.5' of snow.....It's been 15 hours and I can't believe how much I already miss my truck!!

Thanks for any help,

Chay

I've done a bunch of reading and I guess it's not super simple to get a newer engine to run on an older ecm.

Does anyone have direct experience running a 2004.5+ engine on a 2003 HO ECM?

Some say it will work fine, but be a bit smokey, others disagree.

Anyone done it?

Thanks,

Chay

Ok, so I'll answer my own question, somewhat.

I guess the injector tips and piston bowls are the issue. After the 2004.5, the piston bowls are smaller, and the injector tips have a smaller angle spray pattern to match. The rest of the injector is the same (HO, SO are a different matter). You can just swap the injector tips, or if you are getting a used engine, leave the used injectors in place if they're good. After 2006 the connectors on the valve cover changed, but the injectors remained the same; simply swap the valve covers and carry on.

Now for the fun stuff...some same the 2003/04 ho has three injection events, others disagree. All agree that the 2004.5+ have three injection events. If there are three injection events, keep the 2003 ECM. If not, you would simply swap a 2004.5+ ECM in with the existing harness and new engine right? (Also need the newer turbo, as the wastegate is electronic and the turbo air flow will be a bit different, affecting fueling somewhat. need to add a bit of wiring/no biggie)

Not quite. Most say the VIN has to match to work with the other peripherals. However, a guy who swapped 2004.5+ key/steering collum with the new ECM and is fired up. I probably won't have that option, but I thought I'd mention it.

Anyone know definitively whether the 2003 HO has 2 or 3 injection events?

Anyone know if it even matters to the newer engine?

Thanks,

Chay

Looks like the Smarty deletes it unless it is required due to loading/temps.

Makes me feel a bit more comfortable.

Chay

OK, the engine seized and no doubt that there is some damage, but would it not be worth your while to pull the engine apart and see how badly it is damaged? Not all seized engines are automatically scrap. Perhaps it would be cheaper and faster to get your engine overhauled?

Fair point. I just want to get her back on the road quickly though. I really do use the truck a lot.

Certainly I'd be looking at crank, pistons, honing, etc etc, so lots of $$.

It started to overheat when I limped it, and no heater output which means somehow I was burning coolant (No ruptures), so either head or cylinder walls or both somehow. So I have a feeling that there are really big issues with it.

If I can get the snow to stop (Another ungodly 15cm forcasted) then I'll pull the head and start doing a post mordem.

Until then I'm learning about what is possible.

I found a thread that describes the third pulse, when it is used, and has traces to back up the words. Turns out the third injection pulse is only used at lower rpms and lower power settings. It may help spool the turbo and make better low end power, but is most likely for the CAT, and NOT a power or cooling scenario at high load.

This makes me feel much better about dropping in a 2006 with the 2003 electronics. I think that's the way I'm going to end up going. I may move to a 2005 turbo as well, but have to see if it will work with my BD engine brake.

Chay

The number of injection events is the least of your issues.

So you have a 2003 truck and you want to drop in a 2006 engine?

That is correct. Please explain your 'least of your issues' comment.

I have no issue with the comment, I'm trying to learn before I make a mistake in buying this sucker. Everything I've read so far indicates it should work out well.


Thanks,

Chay

I think I'm getting trolled lol.

I did a check on the crank flanges...same.

I did a check on the sensors...all the same except coolant temp (Minor issue) and tps/apps (No issue).

What else is there??

Chay

Lol, not trolling.. Just my opinion...

Ok... A 2006 engine into a 2003 truck can be done. You can drop it in and it will run.

But... The injector timing in the 2003 ECM program is completely wrong for the 2006 engine piston domes and injector spray angles.
The lack of the 3rd injection event in the 2003 ECM program is not a factor for the 2006 engine.

The only programmer that I know that will allow custom programming for the 2003 Dodge Cummins ECM is the Smarty Touch.
It's a pricey programmer plus you will have to pay for someone to write or provide a modified ECM program to work with the 2006 pistons and injector angles.

Or if you want to keep the stock 2003 ECM and not make more power for the moment, you could swap 2003 style pistons and injector tips into the 2006 engine.
The 2003 style pistons are superior to the 2004.5-2007 style pistons. Cummins went back to the 2003 style piston domes for the 2007.5 6.7 Cummins.

The small 2003 turbo is not worth keeping. Toss it and install a modified 2004.5-2007 5.9L turbo or an aftermarket turbo.

Thanks for the heads up.


I have looked at the stock maps, supplied to me by the good Smarty folks. They are super good people.

The durations and rail pressures are similar for both engines. You are right though, the timing is significantly different.

In general, the pilot injection event on the 2006 is 5* up to 30* more advanced than the 2003. That was a surprise.

The main injection even is retarded on the 2006, sometimes up to 18* in comparasin with the 2003.

HMMMMMMM.

What to do.

Chay

Even more reading done.

It seems there are good results to be had with advanced timing on the 2004.5+

Maybe not as much as the 2003 will give me though. If I matched the 2004.5+ tuning, plus about 5* generally, that should be a pretty good compromise between in cylinder pressures and lowering EGT.

So, how to do that?

It looks as if I retard the trigger wheel about 3*, most of the main pulse timing map will match very well. The only spot that will be highly advanced over stock is the high load low rpm region. I can only guess that this region is for spooling the turbo. So I may not spool quite as well at the bottom end.

I thinking of using the 2003 wide angle injectors nozzles. Seems like people are being successful running more timing with them. It doesn't really make sense to me though...seems counter-intuitive. the old nozzles will put the fuel closer to the outside of the piston, and also decrease the max timing before the fuel gets out of the piston bowl (To the edges, not the middle), Seems like the intuitive choice would be the narrow injector spray pattern for increased timing?? Comments?


Thanks,

Chay

Simply modifying the crankshaft timing wheel to alter the static base injector timing is completely inadequate.

The timing and fuel maps programmed into the 2003 ECM are much more complex than that.
We all wish that simply advancing the base timing was all we needed to do rather than purchasing programmers and spending hours fine tuning the ECM program.

Keep researching before you make any engine decisions. :)

Why would I advance them?

They are already advanced with respect to the 2004.5. I will retard them.

You are right, to run 'optimally' I need a programmer.

We will see if I am correct, but this seems very much like some tuning that I have done for computer controlled vs non computer controlled gas engines.

For example, an old mechanical advance HEI distributor has one level of advance for a given RPM (With vacuum advance disconnected, which many did). They ran really well.

A computer controlled HEI ignition had many advances for each rpm level, based on the MAP sensor. It ran optimally. This was primarily for emmissions, but also did add some power and efficiency as well.

Much like altering the tone wheel, If you changed the orientation of the distributor you changed the base setting for all the advances (IE: A global setting change).

We'll see how it goes.


Chay

Little off topic here .....what fitting broke?