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Who's got a Mechanical Belt Driven Lift Pump System?

Old 08-20-2010, 01:38 PM
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Who's got a Mechanical Belt Driven Lift Pump System?

Electric pumps...OEM/FASS/AIRDOG/ECT/ECT....yeah, they just burn up,....thats kinda hard to fix on the side of the road or in the middle of nowhere, unless you carry a spare motor around! Even then it's gonna be a pain to fix!
With a mechanical setup a spare belt will fix it in notime,...dont have a sparebelt,..no-problem your OEM (back-up) Lift Pump will at least get you to the civilian world without FRYING your VP44


So I'm looking into Mechanical Belt Driven Lift Pump Systems right now.
Sofar there is only two makes available in the USA: Mitusa & GDP Fuel Boss
Both systems use the factory "electrical" liftpump as BACKUP incase of failure/belt break.
Seeing that my OEM LP is gone aswell I'll use the FASS DDRP as a "backup" pump.

But then,...most reviews are pretty old 2007 and older,.....sooo I'm very curious as to what the results are today with those Mechanical Belt Driven Lift Pump Systems.


GDP Fuel Boss info a working link this time>>>:http://www.glacierdieselpower.com/pr...pf_id=FB-98502
GDP water / fuel separator info a working link this time>>>http://www.glacierdieselpower.com/pr..._id=FW1220-TFK
MITUSA info: http://www.opieparts.com/Products.htm


[EDIT]whichever one it's going to be, it HAS TO be compatible with the "SPECIAL X VP44" from Blue Chip Diesel:http://www.bluechipdiesel.com/bfmVP44.html

[EDIT]tHE Maximum psi fuel pressure allowed for the "SPECIAL X" IS 12-15psi (thanks wyododge!) [/EDIT]


Sooo,...who's got these Mechanical Belt Driven Lift Pump Systems on their truck, and how miles have you driven without ANY trouble?
And which one would be best to go with GDP or MITUSA - designed by OPIE?


Any comments / hints / tips / advice is very welcome!

Thanks.

Regards NICE_N_EEEZ
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Old 08-20-2010, 01:50 PM
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My only comment since I dont have one is that I understand they're awesome. Pressure only goes up and not down at WOT. If I was starting over, I'd seriously look into one but with that said, I like my Raptor. It does what I need it to do.
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Old 08-20-2010, 02:20 PM
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Do you really think that just because it is a mechanical (belt driven pump) that it will NEVER FAIL. IT IS LIKE ANYTHING ELSE MAN MADE it can and will, someday fail. if these are so good why even have a backup pump like the fass or any other. To me it is just one more thing to go wrong, and there is enough wrong with these trucks to start with. I am getting to DISLIKE these trucks more everyday. just my $.02
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Old 08-20-2010, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bowhunter57 View Post
Do you really think that just because it is a mechanical (belt driven pump) that it will NEVER FAIL. IT IS LIKE ANYTHING ELSE MAN MADE it can and will, someday fail. if these are so good why even have a backup pump like the fass or any other. To me it is just one more thing to go wrong, and there is enough wrong with these trucks to start with. I am getting to DISLIKE these trucks more everyday. just my $.02
Wow..... That was harsh. Having a bad day? I like my truck and I think the level of reliability of these trucks is directly related to knowledge of their workings. Especially the fuel system.
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Old 08-20-2010, 02:41 PM
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Very Bad day with this truck seems like you fix one thing an another goes wrong the next day and nothing is cheap to repair CHRYSLER SHOULD BE MADE TAKE THEM BACK AND FIX ALL THE COMMON PROBLEMS.
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Old 08-20-2010, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bowhunter57 View Post
Do you really think that just because it is a mechanical (belt driven pump) that it will NEVER FAIL. IT IS LIKE ANYTHING ELSE MAN MADE it can and will, someday fail. if these are so good why even have a backup pump like the fass or any other.
I dont "think" ANY system is fulltime bulletproof, however it's a peace of mind "knowing" that if it fails it's either "easy" to fix on the side of the road with a new belt OR your OEM/OEM replacement will bring you home.

from my point of view it's a VERY comfortable thought that at least my VP44 won't get fried, incase of a failure.

I am sorry to hear,...that you have such bad luck with your rig.
Maybe its time to sell it, and give Dodge another chance with a differend one!

ONE thing is for sure for me,.....my "old" '02 Dodge is THE VERY BEST TRUCK I ever bought used!!!
Especially when compared with '07-'08 & '09 F250/F450/ & F550
Yeah USED to have quite a bunch of trucks, ford pickups/Peterbuilts ect,.....Fords however are REAL PIECES OF CRAP,...no matter which model you go with buying it brand new or not THEY WILL LET YOU DOWN within the first 15K!!!
"Fords are litterally more in the SHOP,....then on the JOB!"

Anyway,...thats a different topic!

Back to ON-TOPIC PLZ!

regards NICE_N_EEEZ
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Old 08-20-2010, 03:09 PM
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This is from Blue chip web site. Not sure if it would relate to the x series, but the x series and the standard are similar.

We proved on a dynomometer in 1998 that if you have 5 PSI, under load, you can make all the power available from a VP44, and 5 psi will provide plenty of return fuel for pump lubrication. We do not recommend running more than 12-15 PSI as that does NOT help the fuel system in any way. In fact higher pressures could diminish fuel delivery to the rotor and make the truck run worse at high RPM and possibly overheat and damage the fuel bypass solenoid.
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Old 08-20-2010, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by wyododge View Post
This is from Blue chip web site. Not sure if it would relate to the x series, but the x series and the standard are similar.
Thanks Jeff!


regards NICE_N_EEEZ
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Old 08-20-2010, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NICE_N_EEEZ View Post
Thanks Jeff!


regards NICE_N_EEEZ
You bet,

I'm actually gonna look into getting my FASS turned down. It runs right at 15 PSI. Comes down a bit at WOT, but not very much.
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Old 08-20-2010, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by wyododge View Post
Quote:
We proved on a dynomometer in 1998 that if you have 5 PSI, under load, you can make all the power available from a VP44, and 5 psi will provide plenty of return fuel for pump lubrication. We do not recommend running more than 12-15 PSI as that does NOT help the fuel system in any way. In fact higher pressures could diminish fuel delivery to the rotor and make the truck run worse at high RPM and possibly overheat and damage the fuel bypass solenoid.
I think that if you're going to post verbage from Chips website then you should post the entire page because everything he says is relevant to that comment you quoted.

This is copied directly from bluechipdiesel.com, the page titled Longer life for VP44's:

After many years of trying to improve or fix the problematic VP44 Injection pump, I have made great progress, but I am frustrated that I can’t make them last forever. Computer failures are 90% of almost all drivability issues in my experience. This is from listening to all of you in the “Real World” and testing the accuracy of my diagnostic procedures daily. I am convinced that HEAT IS THE KILLLER OF THESE PUMPS, based on information I have learned over the years. I got this information by listening to all the great people who call me for technical help, and keeping track of initial as well as repeat failures. I have spent many hours and dollars trying to figure out how to solve this problem. I have tried remote mounting the computer to keep it cool, only to have it be affected by stray radio Interference. I have tried putting a cooling plate on top of the computer, like they do in big high powered computers, only to find out there isn’t enough temperature difference between the computer and underhood air temperatures to allow it to work. I tried to thermally insulate the computer and that just created more heat, so I learned that the computer itself generates the heat. Fuel flow actually cools the computer. The more horsepower or work you make the truck do, the hotter the computer gets. This DID make me realize that fueling boxes are better for making extra power than programmers because they take the heat from the added HP and dissipate it in the performance box itself, instead of the computer. Programmers put all the heat from holding the fuel solenoid closed longer into the computer on the injection pump.

From my observations and experiments I truly feel that the working environment of the truck and horsepower determines the life expectancy of a VP44. A truck that lives and works in hotter parts of the country has more problems than one that lives and works in cooler regions. I DON’T know if it is just heat or “heat cycles” or both that kills computers, so I want to share an idea that MIGHT work. I think this is pretty common sense thinking, so give it a listen below.

Blue Chip Diesel Performance proved in 1999 that 5 PSI, under load, made all the horsepower the VP44 pump could make, even with stock fuel lines, fittings and supply pump. We did this test on a dyno when we were testing our Fuel Management System. We thought the amount of return fuel flow at this pressure was adequate for internal lubrication. This proved to be all good information as it turned out, just not enough information. We didn’t know then what we do now, namely that of the heat issue, so we never measured the temperature of the return fuel under a variety of operating conditions. Determining the effect of volume versus cooling seems like an almost impossible test to do in a shop. As I prefer “Real World” tests anyway, here is a theory and a test that makes sense to me. You be the judge and see if you think I might be onto something worthwhile.

If you pump fuel through a line at 5 PSI a certain volume will flow, creating a certain amount of cooling for the computer. If you pump fuel through the same size line at 15 PSI, more fuel should flow and therefore offer more cooling, right??? So, let’s try using 15 PSI or so, all the time for a test to see if repeat failures are diminished or eliminated. Only time will tell, and only you the customers in the “Real World” can give me good information to share with others. It may be a few years before this becomes fact or fiction, but I think it is worth a try. I am recommending, if the customer can afford it and especially if they have had really bad luck with computers and therefore injection pumps, to pay about $105.00 more for a Fass lift pump that makes about 33% more fuel flow, according to the manufacturer. So from now on I am offering two lift pumps, one for $170 that is a third generation Carter made OEM one, or a Fass OEM replacement unit for $275, both designed to fit in the same location as the original one. Installation of either choice makes installation a lot easier than the far more expensive options.

Call me when you have an opinion, to tell me how either of these choices are doing for you. Do you think your injection pump has lasted longer because of this choice of lift pump? In time you will be able to tell me if you are experiencing better durability and lower cost per mile of operation!


I think the bold words explain what is currently known about fuel pressure and VP reliability. That’s why I say that the VP should stay cooler as long as you keep your fuel pressure above 14-16 psi so as to continuously pass through the overflow valve.
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Old 08-20-2010, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by KATOOM View Post
I think that if you're going to post verbage from Chips website then you should post the entire page because everything he says is relevant to that comment you quoted.

This is copied directly from bluechipdiesel.com, the page titled Longer life for VP44's:

If you pump fuel through a line at 5 PSI a certain volume will flow, creating a certain amount of cooling for the computer. If you pump fuel through the same size line at 15 PSI, more fuel should flow and therefore offer more cooling, right???

I think the bold words explain what is currently known about fuel pressure and VP reliability. That’s why I say that the VP should stay cooler as long as you keep your fuel pressure above 14-16 psi so as to continuously pass through the overflow valve.
I don't necessarily agree with the bold print as diesel fuel is not designed to be a cooling agent, (At least I don't think it is). I am not sure of it's heat transferring ability. Pumping it slower may actually cool better. If it picks up heat rapidly, pumping your fuel fast could bring your tank temperature up to engine compartment temperature quickly, reducing effective cooling. No real data so I don't know. He proved that he got full power out of his VP with only 5 PSI. That is well below the average range of most aftermarket pumps out there.

FWIW, I happen to believe one of the major culprits to VP failure is the fuel itself. Meaning the lubricity of it, not just the cooling. Most likely it is a combination of both. Dry fuel causes more friction, causing more heat type of deal, resulting in the need for more cooling from the fuel, which it may or may not be able to provide. The VP was not designed for ULSD.

But your point is well taken, and you are correct, out of context quotes, even if unintended, can and usually are misleading. Kudos to you sir, I stand corrected.

Sorry for the Hijack Mr. Eeez!!
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Old 08-20-2010, 06:08 PM
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I don't have a mechanical pump on my 24 valve truck, but it makes sense to supply more fuel volume as RPM increase. The VP44 has a built-in rotary vane pump at its input. This pump is a positive displacement pump that will supply a volume of fuel in proportion to the VP44 RPM. An external mechanical lift pump will keep up with the volume need of the VP44.

When using an electric lift pump it is necessary to size the pump to supply the greatest volume needed by the VP44 at maximum load and RPM. This is why a pressure regulator is used to limit the fuel volume and pressure at less than maximum RPM and load.

In my opinion Chip has it wrong. The fuel cooling the VP44 does not increase with added lift pump pressure. The volume of fuel to carry away heat does not increase. The positive displacement rotary vane pump at the input of the VP44 determines the volume of fuel through the VP44 and there is no path around the internal vane pump to increase the cooling volume, but since Chip started selling lift pumps the story seems to get modified.
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Old 08-20-2010, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by wyododge View Post
Sorry for the Hijack Mr. Eeez!!
Thats allright Jeff,...
We are all here to LEARN something more about our beloved trucks.
The more the knowledge the better!

Going off on the info you suplied I'll probably set the system to 12-13PSI just to be on the "safe" side,..and keep everything lubricated and cooled without overkilling it in the WOT!

I have to admit, seeing that these Belt Driven Lift Pump systems are about 5 years on the market,...I am kind of supprised that no one (so far) WITH a belt driven system has replied though.

Regards NICE_N_EEEZ
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Old 08-20-2010, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bent valves View Post
I don't have a mechanical pump on my 24 valve truck, but it makes sense to supply more fuel volume as RPM increase.
The VP44 has a built-in rotary vane pump at its input. This pump is a positive displacement pump that will supply a volume of fuel in proportion to the VP44 RPM. An external mechanical lift pump will keep up with the volume need of the VP44.
THAT'S EXACTLY what I meant/was looking for.
Seeing that I do not have a money tree in my back yard, i can spend IT only ONCE,...therefore i need to spend it as wisely as possible, thats why I'm bombarding you guys with all these questions!

Just trying to figure out which is the most reliable fuel system on the market!

Regards NICE_N_EEEZ
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Old 08-20-2010, 07:05 PM
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I'm running the fuel boss belt driven pump. Ive had it on for about 7 months now, and so far, so good. The nice thing about it is it bypasses, not replaces the stock pump. Plus, it has a pressure switch built inline, so that if someting should happen, like a belt goes, your stock LP will kick in and you wont kill your VP. Also, you can still prime after a filter change. I have 18-20 psi at idle, and when you hammer on it, it will drop to about 14, then rise back up to 16-18 at wot. The guy at glacier was real cool, I had a fleck of rubber in the releif valve and was getting no f.p. He knew exactly what the problem was, and went into great detail as to howto remove and dissassemble it. He also mentioned that he has and knows ppl who have 100k+ miles onit with no issues. Plus, its upgradeable. I havent needed it yet, so no comments as to performance, but its a smaller pulley so it spins the pump faster at the same rpm, giving higher psi's to keep up. Also, the install is very easy, great directions. Took me about 3 hours, but thats because i was real picky about running the lines, and covered all hoses in wire loom. The price is a little higher than an elec. pump, but I think its worth it. Simple design= less likelyhood of problems
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