HOHN

Herb, Sean--

Sorry to hear of your problems.

Herb, your dealer is dancing around the issue, but there's a lot of info missing. What's the fuel pressure? What was it like before the LP was replaced? How many miles on the truck running with a bad LP? It's most likely that you have the P0216 error code in your ECM. This is the "injection pump timing code" that means a dead VP. If Cummins can trip it AT ALL, then your VP is most likely dead. The symptoms you are describing are those of a dead VP. It's entirely likely that you have BOTH a VP and an APPS going out.
The low MPG is the biggest indicator of a dead VP.
Sorry to say it herb, but you need a new injection pump.

I know you're disappointed and frustrated at your experience with this truck. Did you buy it new? If it was used, then it sounds like the previous owner didn't do you any favors because he was ignorant, and didn't read DTR/TDR/etc. I would wait another year before considering a 3rd gen. It always seems to take 3 years for them to get a new design working right.

Sean, no need to pay to get the codes read. Autozone will read them for free. Then look them up online and you will know what they are. Or you can just do the key off-on three times trick and the codes will pop up in the odometer window.

Sean, you are right to think FUEL when it comes to diesels. EVERYTHING in a diesel is done by fuel-- timing, power output, etc. If you have air issues, then you should see high temps (coolant and/or EGT). You should also have smoke if you have serious air issues.

Since we always start with fuel when diagnosing diesels, ask some questions. IS there fuel to the lift pump? TO the filter housing? TO the injection pump? Any leaks? Hairline cracks?
What about electronic controls? What determines computer calculations? MAP sensor input? Crank sensor input? Cam sensor input? IAT sensor input? Oil temp/pressure sensor good? Is the wiring from all these sensors to the ECM intact and not frayed? What about the ECM-PCM connections?

If you think about it, with an electronically controlled injection pump, all your fuel issues will either be the pump itself, or one of the sensors or computers that govern the function of the pump.

There IS no such thing as an unfixable problem. Be patient, methodical, persistent, and logical. The problem will be fixed and life will go on....

Hope this helps.

Justin

herb

i am not sure, but i think my running problem may have been solved by replacing the Apps. I drove to Nashville tenn a couple weeks ago with a 16 foot trailer and one horse buggy , so it really wasn't working, but it did well. was supposed to left this week for montana with a 40 foot gooseneck with 4 buggys but the tranny went out.
am waiting for a ATS tranny and triple lock converter to be installed so i can get back on the road.
if i did not have a warranty , the ability to repair myself or a trusted mecanic i would bypass dodge and go directly to a cummins repair center.

Sean S

Thanks Justin,

You may be able to tell that I'm a bit frustrated. Forgive me if I lay that on the group from time to time (it's much dilluted from the side-of-the-road version).

I just got back from Banks Power, which is local to me, and I picked up a "Lift Pump Tester kit", which is basically a fuel pressure gauge, hose, and a couple fittings.
I suppose they don't offer *actual" fuel pressure gauge installation kits due to liability issues.

Anyway, I ran the truck *empty* back on the fwy and I more or less am getting 13 PSI at idle and cruising and 9-10 at full throttle.
I don't have my trailer on (yet), but I ran it with the brakes on an tried to get the pressure down (simulating a load), but couldn't drop below 9psi. I'm assuming this means a good LP.
I haven't the means to do a flow test, but I've cracked open the water separator valve while it's running, and there is flow (I mean I could probably fill a gallon in 30 seconds or less).

So pressure and flow and now I'm back to reading the APPS threads for days even though it could be a VP44.

I purchased my truck used and it now has 275K on it, so I shouldn't complain too much. It's not the truck I'm complaining about, it's the vaugeness and inconsistancy I'm finding in diagnosing the problems it has...even from people who *should* know by now.
It's scary when you know enough about engines, that when you take it to three places 5 times, nobody gives you the same answer, but all are willing to take your money.
I know darned well that the dealer who insists it's a VP44 and installs one, isn't going to take it off, or give it to me for free if it doesn't solve the problem and they replace a cracked hose afterwards (all in there "secret" area where customers aren't allowed to watch).
So far I haven't found a place who could give an answer that made me feel confident that they weren't going to do anything but throw my money at it until it works.
This is a high contrast from the gas engines I've dealt with in the past. I can pretty much walk up to a gas engine and tell you what is wrong with it. From listening to the valves, to smelling the exaust on my hand, to driving it around the block... I'll get pretty darned close almost every time and so will any mechanic that's worth any salt.
It is probably a poor assumption, but I would think that the same thing exists for diesel mechanics?
It is not because of the computer and all the new stuff either. I can apply much of, if not most of my experience to my 300zx TT, which is computerized beyond HAL.

Well, I'll keep at it (not much choice) and let you know the results.

All the Best
Sean

HOHN

Sean, your fuel situation sounds good. Depending on where you are taking your FP readings, I don't think you could possibly have good FP and poor flow.

The APPS is a really quirky piece. No doubt you have read Sticks' TDR posts on the APPS autopsy? It's worth a gander. Seems that if the APPS is screwy, it can send a signal to the ECM that the ECM doesn't understand. Thus, the ECM sends a screwy signal to the VP and things don't perform well. IIRC, the ECM also has a dummy function where if it gets thoroughly confused, it will send a certain default to the VP.

I went through the same thing you are when I bought my CTD-- being I knew gassers pretty well but hadn't a clue about diesels. I think diesels are harder to t-shoot because so much is controlled by the fueling. It's not like a gasser where you have fuel and spark and it's pretty easy to tell which is acting up.

I don't think Dodge would really care if they came on here and read all this. With companies that large, the loyalty is one-way. Lots of customers are loyal to a Ford, Dodge, or Chevy-- but NONE of the companies has ANY loyalty to their customers. They know that losing one customer is no big deal, because there's another sucker waiting in line to take his place.

I think most large corporations have gotten to the point where they are willing to sacrifice their self-respect to make a quick buck. You see it in little things. When you can build a car with a part that costs $10 and would last almost forever OR with a part that costs $4 but is borderline, the companies choose the latter every time. They say that on the scale of millions of vehicles, it makes a difference of many millions of dollars. That may be true, but YOU and *I* will NOT be buying many cars. We only care about the one we own and how long it will last. And almost all of us would choose the $10 part every time.

Why do you have to spend a fortune on a car like a Lexus in order to find something that's actually built with QUALITY in mind, not just low-cost manufacturing? I mean if the difference between the best door handles in the world and a "good enough" one is only $30, why NOT do things better.

One thing the time has proven is that people are willing to pay more for something that's built better. How else could Dodge sell so many CTDs when the option price is OVER $5000???

"Penny wise, Pound Foolish"

Justin