CoolGuyLevi

Well guys the time has finaly come where I get to post my own Thread. I have been a DTR member for 5 years. I have also been a member on Pirate and RCC for about the same amount of time. I have alot to write but ill try not to kill you with boredom. My last truck was a 1993 W150, I loved that thing. I put 200K miles on it. Anyways it was basically stock with the exception of the '95 one ton rear end and springs, Superlift, and Custom drive shafts, after rebuilding the entire drive train, and investing thousands of bucks into that truck I got T-boned in the snow. That wasnt enough to make me give up on the beast. I bought a 1990 D150 with 80K miles and drove that truck hard! Then it was time to swap the parts... I did a whole cab and bed swap from the '90 to the '93 frame. Now before I get lost in that truck story let me sum it up really quick... My brother gave me a 2001 V10 magnum, I thought it would make a cool and powerful swap so I put the engine inbetween the frame rails and bolted the stock NV4500 to it. (yes alot more work was required than I described). I was 23 when I did that in 2012, I felt so accomplished. When I was done and had a driving functional truck I decided I needed more power. So whats the first thing that comes to mind???? Turbos and superchargers and Nos, and cam... well I ended up turbocharging it. The end result was a 325 Hp. and 650lb/ft torque first gen V10!




Why did I just tell you that long story about a gasser? Well, I figured I would give you all some info about my skills and knowledge. I always feel the need to do somthing different rather than the same'ol-same'ol. Which brings me to this tread... Project 6.1 my current and most recent truck I picked up from an old man who bought the truck brand new in 1993 and has used it few and far between over the years. It is a '93 CTD W350 CC. It has cross over steering, 325-85-R16's, bone stock suspension, stretched front fenders, trimmed rear dually fenders, and gets 16 mpg. I plan to spray the truck with Scorpion Liner some time soon (Red). and put some HD bumpers on it.









Now what is Project 6.1? That is the ammount of displacement I am shooting for. The plan is to buy a used first gen cummins engine. I have found one with a cracked head the guy says and its got a scored cylinder also all taken apart. My plan is to use the block and maybe the head (i have a feeling its not cracked instead had a blown head gasket). If need be I will put a new head on it. So I am going to fire ring it, head studs, 6.7L crank, bore it .020 over, and put in a performance cam that will hopefully close the comression stoke a little retard to bring my compression back to 18:1 or so. The next thing I am going to do is raise the pressure of the VE, and yes I have a plan to do so. So, with the higher injection pump pressure hopefully around 14-15,000 PSI. I will need to raise the pop pressure of the injectors. For experiamental purposes only I plan on using stock injectors with custom EDM'd modified stock nozzels 10x10's yes that 10x.010 on top of all this modifications I will be puting compound turbos on. With these modifications what would you guys suggest for turbos that can push some air with the retarded intake valve. and longer stroke? Do you guys see anything wrong with my plan? I am hoping to acheive around 400-450hp, and I cant even guess what the torque would be, do you?

I am tired after writing this so I will post pictures of my truck tomorrow. BTW here is my link to my build thus far on Pirate4x4.com.

Link removed due to Profanity

CoolGuyLevi

Pictures added

Angry Johnny

Cool looking truck and it sounds like a cool project but I have some questions.

Why do you think you are going to lose compression? Boring and engine will generally result in an increase in compression with the same design piston and secondly, what are you doing for pistons? The 5.9 piston is going to come too far out of the block. Don't you need custom pistons? In which case you could get any compression ratio you want.

CoolGuyLevi

Thats a good point about the pistons. Im not sure until I get into the project I was hoping to use .020 pistons with the tops machined off. But ive never done that type of work to a Cummins and have no idea even if there is material to be removed... maybe ill machine some out of billet?

1972RedNeck

Mind blown.


My only comment is this:

If you have a compound setup that pushes over 60 lbs. of boost, I think that the bowl penetration will be horrible with only .010" nozzle holes - at least that's what I have read.

thrashingcows

Neat project! And I understand wanting to do things that are off the beaten path...have no problem with that. BUT my question is why go through all this added expense and work building this custom motor to get you 400-450hp?

You could do up a P-Pump motor to make that kind of power for pennies compared to this custom motor?

Jim Lane

Sounds cool.

What are you going to do to get the power into the ground?
What gear ratio in the diffs and how are you going to stop it?

Although the Cummins can twist them I would think that is a lot of stress on the driveline with that size tires.

CoolGuyLevi

I dont need to get the power to the ground, lol I just need to get it to the tires. but seriously the dana 70 that the truck is equipped with will eventually be replaced with dana 80 in the mean time I will be looking for an NV-4500 to replace the Getrag.

dieselJon

No need to mess too much with the VE to achieve 450hp. 5x16's flowing 90-100lpm, an HE351(or S360, S258)/S471 turbos, a nicely rebuilt pump, and intercooler should get you there.

On the 6.1L of displacement, many people have done 6.4L. Main thing is you need custom length rods and custom pistons to change the pin height. Otherwise there is too much side load.

CoolGuyLevi

But with higher injection pressure, will result in better atomizeation = better efficiancy, better efficancy = better mpg for the hp range. Can you explain the side load?

patdaly

Have you ever seen a non common rail diesel run the types of injection pressures you propose? Any idea on how you load the injector to those pop pressures, or what the resonance will do to the injector lines? We see plenty of issues with the lines on the common rails now, and I am quite sure they don't flex like the lines you would have will.

I always like to see innovation, but something tells me if this were the way to go, that we would not be seeing common rails right now.

CoolGuyLevi

After further review, I have done more research and have come to the conclusion that 14-15,000 psi is not enough. my research shows that the injection pressure of the VE is factory set at 17,000 PSI. while the Bosch P7100 is 18,000 PSI. I belevie that the reason people can make more power with the p-pump is due to the higher injection pressure and better atomized fuel. So my new target range for injection pressure is around 18-19,000 psi. I personally don't believe this will have an affect on the injection lines. With the stock first gen injection lines will hold more pressure than the second gen due to surface area. The inside diameter of the first gen cummins lines are smaller than the second gen there fore able to withstand greater pressures.

patdaly

Where are you getting this information?

18,000 PSI would be roughly 1,225 Bar........... our P7100 pop pressure is around 260 Bar ( 3,800 PSI )

You aren't quite to waterjet cutting pressures at 18,000, but you are coming uncomfortably close.

dieselJon

Uh... no.

The p-pump makes more power due to things like a separate plunger per injector allowing for 720* of rotation to refill the plunger vs the VE that has 1 plunger for all 6 and only has 120* of rotation to fill the plunger with fuel. Injection pressure helps but not that much.

To help with the higher pop pressure needed, the P-pump has a cam like your engine.This provides a more reliable, less component stress to the plungers. The VE uses a camplate that pushes on 4 rollers and 2 drive lugs. Upping the pop pressure puts more stress on these components. These have less material to help with the stress vs a cam and plunger.

Read up on how the P-pump operates and the VE. The later VP44 on the 24V Cummins before there was a commonrail injection uses a similar setup like the VE. It is limited to a max of around 1000hp so far. Only a handful have hit this 4 digit mark with a VP. This is in spite of having even more of a pop pressure than the P-pump and 2 more valve per cylinder.

Pop pressures:
VE injectors: 3,600psi.
P-Pump injector: 3,800psi
VP injector:4200psi

Now the commonrail is a whole different ball game due to the computer fired injectors. This alleviates a lot of things the you cannot do with mechanical pumps. Things like variable timing, injector open time, multiple injection events, all of which are variable. You can open the injector late when you go up to the line to spool your turbo to race and as soon as the computer detects wheel movement, it can start adding more timing to help with higher RPM power.

CoolGuyLevi

I'm confused as to your source or experience with hydraulics? Pop pressure and injection pressure are two totally different things. The pop pressure is the amount of pressure it takes to defeat the needle spring on the inside of the injector (aka valve). Let me try to explain this a little more detailed so you all know what I am talking about.

I was the Quality Assurance Manager for an international hydraulic manufacturer, PMC Group (Power, Motion, and Control) during my employment at PMC I acquired a lot of training in hydraulic R&D, Engineering, Customer Specifications and more.

So to explain the injection of diesel fuel via Bosch VE injection pump. A series of events take place. First, there is a vain pump that compresses the diesel fuel from the lift pump to 10-15 Bar ( 1 bar = 14.5 psi (Bar is a metric form of measuring pressure it originated a long time ago when it was believed that the atmospheric pressure at sea level was 14.5 psi or 1 bar when it is actually 14.7 psi or 1.013 bar)) or 145-217.5 psi. The next thing that happens is the diesel fuel is delivered to the injection plunger (basically a distributor) on the compression stroke of the plunger the fuel pressure raises to 3,600 psi at the time the pressure reaches 3,601 psi (theoretically) the diesel fuel defeats the spring pressure holding down the needle valve in the injector. The third thing that happens is, once the injector is open the plunger inside the VE continues to raise the diesel fuel pressure within the injector. This is only possible because the fuel can not escape the injector faster than the plunger is pushing fuel into it, raising the fuel to around 17,000 psi or 1172 Bar.

Excuse me for being blunt (not trying to be rude) but for you to say that 18,000 psi is coming close to waterjet pressures, you are far, far off. Common rail pumps which inject pressures around 44,000 psi is still 20,000 psi short of waterjet pressure. Contrary to belief waterjets don't just use water to cut, they use media such as silicon, silicon carbide, or aluminum oxide. This is why contaminates in diesel fuel is very bad because they can move at incredible rates of speed and be very destructive upon impact inside the fuel system or combustion chamber.