Fuel in OIL - HELP!
10-10-2017, 05:07 PM
#31
Registered User
Thread Starter
Bigragu PMd me re: this thread, just went through exact same problem. Gallons of diesel pumped into crank case not long after replacing diaphram pump with "low "pressure" piston pump. Initially I had I bought and installed this pump 3936320 | Cummins Fuel Transfer Pump | Diesel Specialists, LLC. Valley Fuel Injection recomended I remove the lift pump and send it to them before tearing into the VE. They opened lift pump and found the guts to be substandard and seals were pushing apart- they sent pump back (all for free) and recommended I try replacing lift pump first. I replaced lift with correct cummins pump, still dumped diesel into crank. Had truck towed to Valley Fuel Injection, they removed and rebuilt VE pump with 3200 gov spring, front seal was culprit but also pump had been rebuilt (poorly) before by another shop using substandard parts or re-used old parts. $1700 later my truck now runs better than ever, oil has never been cleaner. I would have attempted to R&R VE pump myself, but my back is toast and so is my brain as of late, had to borrow money to pay for the job but it was worth it IMO. I think/hope/pray I caught the problem before any damage was done
Thanks so very much for getting back to me. I've been a bit stressed with this, the fires nearby and a sick wife who either has a cold or the smoke is getting to her.
Yes, the pump PN is the same as yours. I DO have the spacer from LarryB's and 2 gaskets. Unfortunately I didn't do any testing of the pump to see what the pressure is. It went since July with no problems other than forcing fuel past probably the original fuel heater seal ring which had to be replaced on day one.
Others have confirmed my assessment of how the spring behind the main piston controls the pressure while the piston diameter and stroke determines volume and I realize the priming pump piston has nothing to do with pump pressure or volume.
I haven't been able to look into the problem yet because I'm like you and not very physically able to do stuff. Last week I had to replace the U-Joints which took a lot out of me and now this.
My VE was replaced with a rebuilt unit from USDieselParts.com which I hope is a quality rebuilder. It has been running about a year before this problem.
My plan is to get a new Piston Pump that's been modified to have the proper pressure and to get the seal replaced in my VE pump. I plan to have all the parts and tools together before I start the job.
Is the front seal in the VE replaceable without disassembling the pump? I'm hoping I can carefully pull the damaged seal out and replace it from the front after I remove the pump. Otherwise I'll have to take it to a shop somewhere.
Any other points I haven't covered?
Thanks for everybody's help.
Edwin
10-10-2017, 05:11 PM
#32
Registered User
Thread Starter
Sorry to hear your fuel leak problem. That sucks for sure. Hopefully you didn’t run the engine too long or hard with your oil being contaminated.
None of these cheap aftermarket lift pumps are high volume (HV) 30mm piston... they are low volume 26mm (LV) lift pumps, plus they are generally made for the 2nd gen engine & run at a much higher psi than what the VE inj pump can handle. I personally won’t/don’t use the Fastenal spring in any of my lift pump builds. They are a weak spring & don’t hold their pressure long. You do need to run a block to lift pump spacer & 2 gaskets, if you are going to try running a piston lift pump on any Cummins B series engine or the piston will have clearance issues and break the lift pump in half.
The 2nd gen trucks don’t need this spacer due to the fuel heater/strainer acts as the spacer.
Also the aftermarket seal/rebuild kits for the VE inj pumps are substandard and the front seal will blow out at a much lower psi than a genuine Bosch rebuild kit. You get what you pay for in most cases.
None of these cheap aftermarket lift pumps are high volume (HV) 30mm piston... they are low volume 26mm (LV) lift pumps, plus they are generally made for the 2nd gen engine & run at a much higher psi than what the VE inj pump can handle. I personally won’t/don’t use the Fastenal spring in any of my lift pump builds. They are a weak spring & don’t hold their pressure long. You do need to run a block to lift pump spacer & 2 gaskets, if you are going to try running a piston lift pump on any Cummins B series engine or the piston will have clearance issues and break the lift pump in half.
The 2nd gen trucks don’t need this spacer due to the fuel heater/strainer acts as the spacer.
Also the aftermarket seal/rebuild kits for the VE inj pumps are substandard and the front seal will blow out at a much lower psi than a genuine Bosch rebuild kit. You get what you pay for in most cases.
Edwin
10-10-2017, 11:00 PM
#33
Registered User
The front seal is pretty easy to change once the pump is out. Just pull it out the front like any other seal. I put a bit of red lock tite on the new one when I replaced mine. I do recall reading somewhere that even the low pressure Cummins piston pumps put out a couple of PSI more than a diaphragm pump. I pushed my front seal out of my pump shortly after putting the piston pump on. Haven't had any trouble since.
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edwinsmith (10-10-2017)
10-10-2017, 11:26 PM
#34
Registered User
Thread Starter
The front seal is pretty easy to change once the pump is out. Just pull it out the front like any other seal. I put a bit of red lock tite on the new one when I replaced mine. I do recall reading somewhere that even the low pressure Cummins piston pumps put out a couple of PSI more than a diaphragm pump. I pushed my front seal out of my pump shortly after putting the piston pump on. Haven't had any trouble since.
Did your seal invert or did it push the whole thing out?
Thanks
Edwin
10-11-2017, 01:19 PM
#36
Found these on the net, and saved them to my iPad should I ever have to replace mine:
10-11-2017, 01:20 PM
#37
More
10-11-2017, 01:24 PM
#38
Wish I could add on this seal stop. I don't know who did it, but you can find his pics in the web. He had to machine part of the surrounding seal area, and drill/tap so it could accept this plate he machined. Keeps that seal nice and secure.
10-11-2017, 01:32 PM
#39
Edwin, you take apart that lift pump yet? Find anything?
I recently read somewhere of a guy replacing that VE seal with his pump still installed. He went thru the timing case, and removed the pump gear and woodruff key, and hammered on his seal that way. May seem like more work, but it's also a pain trying to remount that pump and align the slots w/o dropping that key into the timing case. Then, you may end up like I did(still don't know how it happened to this day) and disrupt your timing, even though the marks on the pump and rear of timing case still align up.
I guess if you way out the injector line removal, throttle linkages, bleeding of air in all the lines, etc, may be the front access isn't so bad after all? Gives you a chance to recheck all the bolt heads for tightness inside that timing case, and do your kdp if you haven't done so already.
I recently read somewhere of a guy replacing that VE seal with his pump still installed. He went thru the timing case, and removed the pump gear and woodruff key, and hammered on his seal that way. May seem like more work, but it's also a pain trying to remount that pump and align the slots w/o dropping that key into the timing case. Then, you may end up like I did(still don't know how it happened to this day) and disrupt your timing, even though the marks on the pump and rear of timing case still align up.
I guess if you way out the injector line removal, throttle linkages, bleeding of air in all the lines, etc, may be the front access isn't so bad after all? Gives you a chance to recheck all the bolt heads for tightness inside that timing case, and do your kdp if you haven't done so already.
10-11-2017, 01:47 PM
#40
Registered User
I think going through the front of the gear case would take way longer than just removing the pump. However if you needed to do the dowel pin too might be worth it.
10-11-2017, 02:09 PM
#41
Registered User
Thread Starter
Edwin, you take apart that lift pump yet? Find anything?
I recently read somewhere of a guy replacing that VE seal with his pump still installed. He went thru the timing case, and removed the pump gear and woodruff key, and hammered on his seal that way. May seem like more work, but it's also a pain trying to remount that pump and align the slots w/o dropping that key into the timing case. Then, you may end up like I did(still don't know how it happened to this day) and disrupt your timing, even though the marks on the pump and rear of timing case still align up.
I guess if you way out the injector line removal, throttle linkages, bleeding of air in all the lines, etc, may be the front access isn't so bad after all? Gives you a chance to recheck all the bolt heads for tightness inside that timing case, and do your kdp if you haven't done so already.
I recently read somewhere of a guy replacing that VE seal with his pump still installed. He went thru the timing case, and removed the pump gear and woodruff key, and hammered on his seal that way. May seem like more work, but it's also a pain trying to remount that pump and align the slots w/o dropping that key into the timing case. Then, you may end up like I did(still don't know how it happened to this day) and disrupt your timing, even though the marks on the pump and rear of timing case still align up.
I guess if you way out the injector line removal, throttle linkages, bleeding of air in all the lines, etc, may be the front access isn't so bad after all? Gives you a chance to recheck all the bolt heads for tightness inside that timing case, and do your kdp if you haven't done so already.
If I were killing my KDP I would probably replace the seal through the front. Otherwise I've been through swapping the pump a couple of times so I know exactly which bolts to take out and which wrenches to use.
I haven't decided what to do if the Lift Pump turns out to be putting out too much pressure. I haven't found anything definitive yet as to what the genuine Cummins part with that PN is specified to put out. I could sue the supplier for selling me a defective pump but I don't know if I'd win. But I can bad mouth them to all heck.
Thanks for the pics and Thrub for clarifying that the seal was pushed out. It might be possible to drill/tap some holes around the seal and put a ring and some screws there to hold the new seal in. I'm also considering just going back to the standard diaphragm lift pump. I really don't need the extra volume since my VE and injectors are stock.
Edwin
10-11-2017, 03:40 PM
#42
Edwin, I'm almost positive that guy that put that round plate on top of his pump seal had to machine a ridge slightly larger than the diameter of that round plate, so it would drop down. Just putting a round something in top of that seal will cause interference with the fir up back onto the pump gear! I suggest you find those pics I sent you on the net, click on that link, and read up on the steps he took to make that work. That is nut a plug and play deal, per se.
Whose lift pump are you going with? Like I mentioned earlier, Hungry diesel and dieseltuff are the only "for sure" ones that I know of, that you do not have to worry about over pressures.
Just a suggestion, Edwin, after you get your new, correct lift pump mounted, I would pour in some cheap 15/40 oil in and just drive around the block, keeping it close to home. For all you know, your VE seal may still be intact, and it was that faulty LP and only that that caused the leak.
Just hate to see you open up another can of worms, removing that VE, only to find your seal still good. I would put enough of that cheap oil to get in between the two marks on your dipstick, drive it, and if it shows full or above the full mark, then dive into the pump removal.
Also, as far as that VE seal, there's actually a wrong sized ones in some of these seal kits, or being sold by some vendors. There's an exact size in mm, I want to say 20mm, that is the correct one. Can't remember.
Just making you aware
Whose lift pump are you going with? Like I mentioned earlier, Hungry diesel and dieseltuff are the only "for sure" ones that I know of, that you do not have to worry about over pressures.
Just a suggestion, Edwin, after you get your new, correct lift pump mounted, I would pour in some cheap 15/40 oil in and just drive around the block, keeping it close to home. For all you know, your VE seal may still be intact, and it was that faulty LP and only that that caused the leak.
Just hate to see you open up another can of worms, removing that VE, only to find your seal still good. I would put enough of that cheap oil to get in between the two marks on your dipstick, drive it, and if it shows full or above the full mark, then dive into the pump removal.
Also, as far as that VE seal, there's actually a wrong sized ones in some of these seal kits, or being sold by some vendors. There's an exact size in mm, I want to say 20mm, that is the correct one. Can't remember.
Just making you aware
10-11-2017, 04:06 PM
#43
Registered User
Thread Starter
Edwin, I'm almost positive that guy that put that round plate on top of his pump seal had to machine a ridge slightly larger than the diameter of that round plate, so it would drop down. Just putting a round something in top of that seal will cause interference with the fir up back onto the pump gear! I suggest you find those pics I sent you on the net, click on that link, and read up on the steps he took to make that work. That is nut a plug and play deal, per se.
Whose lift pump are you going with? Like I mentioned earlier, Hungry diesel and dieseltuff are the only "for sure" ones that I know of, that you do not have to worry about over pressures.
Just a suggestion, Edwin, after you get your new, correct lift pump mounted, I would pour in some cheap 15/40 oil in and just drive around the block, keeping it close to home. For all you know, your VE seal may still be intact, and it was that faulty LP and only that that caused the leak.
Just hate to see you open up another can of worms, removing that VE, only to find your seal still good. I would put enough of that cheap oil to get in between the two marks on your dipstick, drive it, and if it shows full or above the full mark, then dive into the pump removal.
Also, as far as that VE seal, there's actually a wrong sized ones in some of these seal kits, or being sold by some vendors. There's an exact size in mm, I want to say 20mm, that is the correct one. Can't remember.
Just making you aware
Whose lift pump are you going with? Like I mentioned earlier, Hungry diesel and dieseltuff are the only "for sure" ones that I know of, that you do not have to worry about over pressures.
Just a suggestion, Edwin, after you get your new, correct lift pump mounted, I would pour in some cheap 15/40 oil in and just drive around the block, keeping it close to home. For all you know, your VE seal may still be intact, and it was that faulty LP and only that that caused the leak.
Just hate to see you open up another can of worms, removing that VE, only to find your seal still good. I would put enough of that cheap oil to get in between the two marks on your dipstick, drive it, and if it shows full or above the full mark, then dive into the pump removal.
Also, as far as that VE seal, there's actually a wrong sized ones in some of these seal kits, or being sold by some vendors. There's an exact size in mm, I want to say 20mm, that is the correct one. Can't remember.
Just making you aware
The pump from DieselTuff looks to be the best deal. I don't need the full kit since I already have the spacer and the fuel line. I can get just the pump from them for about $100 less. If I went back to the diaphragm pump. given it would probably be from China I run the risk of the PUMP putting fuel in the ccase again. Another $100 spent for a quality part is worth it IMHO.
Your idea of using some cheap oil to clean out the engine is s good one. Then I can go back to the full synthetic oil that I like
Edwin
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bigragu (10-11-2017)
10-11-2017, 04:18 PM
#44
Registered User
Thread Starter
VE front seal retainer
At Bigragu's request I found the thread of the fellow that made his seal retainer for his VE here: 1stGen.org ? View topic - VE front seal retainer
For some reason the pics didn't show in the thread so good job Bigragu for saving the image.
He said there is about .3 inches of space between the VE and the gear so there's plenty of room for his style of retainer. The problem is, I don't have a lathe or a mill to do the precision work so it would be tricky.
He mentions the possibility of pressure testing the VE to see how much pressure it would hold. I don't know about that but I would think it should hold 30 psi or so. The seal being pressed in from the front without a retainer is a bad design IMHO.
Edwin
For some reason the pics didn't show in the thread so good job Bigragu for saving the image.
He said there is about .3 inches of space between the VE and the gear so there's plenty of room for his style of retainer. The problem is, I don't have a lathe or a mill to do the precision work so it would be tricky.
He mentions the possibility of pressure testing the VE to see how much pressure it would hold. I don't know about that but I would think it should hold 30 psi or so. The seal being pressed in from the front without a retainer is a bad design IMHO.
Edwin
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bigragu (10-11-2017)
10-11-2017, 08:30 PM
#45
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At Bigragu's request I found the thread of the fellow that made his seal retainer for his VE here: 1stGen.org ? View topic - VE front seal retainer
For some reason the pics didn't show in the thread so good job Bigragu for saving the image.
He said there is about .3 inches of space between the VE and the gear so there's plenty of room for his style of retainer. The problem is, I don't have a lathe or a mill to do the precision work so it would be tricky.
He mentions the possibility of pressure testing the VE to see how much pressure it would hold. I don't know about that but I would think it should hold 30 psi or so. The seal being pressed in from the front without a retainer is a bad design IMHO.
Edwin
For some reason the pics didn't show in the thread so good job Bigragu for saving the image.
He said there is about .3 inches of space between the VE and the gear so there's plenty of room for his style of retainer. The problem is, I don't have a lathe or a mill to do the precision work so it would be tricky.
He mentions the possibility of pressure testing the VE to see how much pressure it would hold. I don't know about that but I would think it should hold 30 psi or so. The seal being pressed in from the front without a retainer is a bad design IMHO.
Edwin
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