StorminN

Hi folks,

I'm looking for some advice... I'm having trouble deciding if I should stay with this truck I have, or sell it and get something else.



I bought this 1993 D250 utility body truck about a year and a half ago. It was sort of an impulse buy – the first time I've ever done that with a vehicle. I needed a truck pretty badly at the time (that situation has since changed). I really wanted a 4WD manual transmission truck, but I didn't have the budget for one and they're hard to find around here. Then this 2WD automatic rig with 230k miles came along for $2,800 and I asked around and most folks said that was was a good deal – that the $2,800 was about the value of the used Cummins motor. That sounded a little high to me, but - whatever. The PO said he'd throw in a new windshield... put the install on his insurance, to sweeten the deal. I bought the truck and started using it.

I've never had a Dodge or a Cummins before, but I've owned and been around a number of diesels... mostly GMC's, John Deere's and Detroits. I had always heard that the Cummins were economical fuel-wise, and I was interested in that. I don't need tons of power, I want economy over power. I had owned a couple of early 1980's GMC 6.2L NA diesel full-sized vans in the past, with 700R4 overdrive transmissions and lockup torque converters, and got actual 20 to 21mpg highway with those 7,000lb rolling bricks, so I was thinking if I could get in the high teens with this Dodge, I'd be happy.

Truthfully, the truck seemed to drive ok on my test drive. It was a beautiful summer day, maybe I got distracted. Yes, the steering seemed loose. Yeah, the brakes seemed ok, but not great. I had been used to GMC hydroboost brakes, but I had been driving gas cars for the past few years, so I couldn't really tell. The Dodge drove like a truck... an old, heavy, loose truck, with mushy brakes. The other 2nd gen Cummins I had driven (just a few times) seemed luggish, sorta slow to get out of their own way, but they would pull weight ok... and this one seemed the same. I had been warned about the Dodge automatic transmissions, but I asked around and one friend told some stuff to check for and it seemed to check out OK. In hind sight, I should have been even more wary and pulled the pan and taken a look.

After I got the truck, I started reading more about the Cummins engines. This is when I learned about the killer dowel pin, and learned that if it hadn't been fixed yet, it could potentially total the engine if the pin fell out. So, I bought the $85? in gaskets and seals from the local Cummins shop, (+$16 shipping!) and got that fixed.

Then I started asking more questions of my friends that had owned these 2nd gen trucks... and then I learned about the "death wobble", and my friend Mike told me about the time his wife drove his '92 W250 into the local Goodwill parking lot and the steering wheel spun free in her hands... the steering shaft had broken completely. He advised me to not drive my truck until I replaced the stock steering shaft with a Borgeson. I inspected the stock shaft in my truck, and yeah... it was loose, and it was about the diameter of the steering shaft in my Subaru '91 wagon... pretty small for a vehicle as heavy as this truck. But all the bushings and ball joints were shot too (as well as the front springs), so it was hard to tell what was making it wander all over the road. I ordered the $180 Borgeson and put it in.

Shortly after, the brakes started not working when I first started the truck. At first I thought it was the vacuum pump (since it was leaking oil), but with a vacuum gauge I traced it down to a leaking booster. Once I got the new booster and master cylinder installed, I realized the brakes weren't all that great. We live up a 1,000 foot hill... I have to go down it and up it to get to town and back. I needed better brakes. I ended up going right through the front and rear brakes... new wheel cylinders, rotors, drums, seals, etc.

Last fall, the steering wandering seemed to get worse. I had a friend look at the front end, because he has a rack and alignment tools. In addition to the springs, bushings and ball joints, it also had a bad outer tie rod. I got that swapped out, and ordered the rest of the front-end parts.

One day with my toddler son with me, I stopped at a local store, came back out 5 minutes later and the truck wouldn't start... just a click. It might have been just the solenoid, but I had the kid with me and I was in a rush and had a friend come help me... we tried a couple of things, banged on it, tried to get it turned, but ended up swapping in a new starter, which fixed that problem. I've never had another rig where the starter just quit with no warning... this one had worked every day, (and even earlier in the same day) until it suddenly died.

Another month or so later, the truck wouldn't start at home. It was turning over fine, but no fuel. I cracked the banjo nut above the filter and primed the lift pump, got it going and went on my way. I had noticed the flimsy plastic water drain on the bottom of the fuel filter would drip diesel now and then, so I assumed it got some air in there. I checked the price of that crappy plastic $$ensor / drain and decided to replace that filter with a solid one, eliminating the drain. The truck seemed to start fine after that.

A couple of months later, I drove to town with my wife & kid, stopped for some food at a local drive-through, turned the rig off to get our food, and tried to start it again 2 minutes later, and it was fuel starved again. I was stranded at the drive-through. I tried to crack the banjo and prime it again, but it didn't work. The lift pump didn't feel right, no pressure when I pumped it manually. I ended up getting an air tank and pressurizing the fuel tank with a couple of psi of air, to push fuel to the filter. I got it primed, and it ran fine again. The lift pump felt ok again, and I thought maybe I had only felt it when the cam was in a certain position. I brought the truck to my friend's place with the rack, to see if the plastic fuel lines had a leak somewhere. We pressurized the fuel tank again and left it for a couple of hours... no leaks. I bought a new lift pump, swapped that out, and the fuel starvation problem seemed to go away.

Another month or so later, I was at a friend's place who has had a '92 W250 for years and years, he asked how I liked the truck, I was honest and told him some of the stories, that it had stranded me more than any other rig I've ever owned... he said "oh, I've been stranded in a drive-through, too... you need to carry ether". I said I didn't think you could use that with the intake heaters, and he said, "oh sure, you just disconnect them when you spray the ether... do you know how to do that?". I knew the relays were on the fender wall, but had never disconnected them... he said "pop the hood and I'll show you". I reached in the cab and pulled the hood release, and it came off in my hand... cable broken right at the end of the handle. He said "crap! did that just break just now??" Yep... that about sums up how this truck has treated me...

All along, I have been fighting the body issues... the doors that sag and close hard (even after I put in new hinge bushings). The water leak(s) in the cab, that I can't tell if it (or they) are from the poorly-designed floor vent, or from the new windshield that was installed when I bought the truck, or maybe that this truck has cowl cracks that I don't know about yet... (and it rains here in the Pacific Northwest, so this is a big problem). The power windows that don't work, unless you count the driver's side window glass that decided to come loose from the mechanism and fall to the bottom of the door. The power locks that only lock from the passenger side switch (where my son in his car seat conveniently kicks the switch, or a tote or something in the seat slides over and hits the switch), and that do not unlock from any switch... I've been locked out of the truck four or five times now due to that passenger-side switch... twice when my son was in the rig. I keep tools in the toolbox on the back to break in now.

So yeah, I've seen my share of trouble with this 22 year-old truck. More trouble than I had expected. I've always driven 20 to 30-year-old vehicles, and expect a certain level of failure... but this is much worse.

So the truck's latest development is tranny trouble. It started not moving when I first start it in the morning. Even if it's warmed up and I put it in neutral, it takes about 15-20 seconds for the tranny to build enough pressure for it to move. Now, even when it's warmed up and I've been driving it, if I stop at a light and then go again, it sometimes won't start off in first gear... it seems like it's in 3rd gear. If I manually downshift, it works ok - no slipping. But it wasn't until I started shifting it like this that I realized that I think it's never gone into overdrive while I've owned it. Rolling at 55mph, if I push the "OD off" button, nothing happens. That and the hill we live on top of might explain why it's averaged 14.4 mpg over the past year and a half, and has never made it over 15.2 mpg.

Consequently, the truck is currently in the local tranny shop. They said the fluid had a lot of clutch material and some metal in it, and particulate must be clogging / jamming the valve bodies and preventing them from shifting as it should. They quoted me $2,300 for a rebuilt and installed tranny. This is a non-lockup truck, so I believe that's a rebuilt sheet metal torque converter. They said a billet converter is about $500 more, but since mine is not a lockup, to not bother.

So I'm trying to decide what to do. I hate to throw good money after bad. Truthfully, all the little body problems are really getting to me, more than they should. If I had to the time to fix them all would be one thing, but I hate messing with that stuff, and I really just need a truck that works – and that includes stuff as simple as the window rolling down so I can talk to the lady at the drive-through at the transfer station.

So I bought the truck for $2,800 and I've put about another $2,000 in parts and labor into it... I think blue book for this truck is about $4,800 for one in good shape, so with a bad tranny and a host of other problems, I'm already underwater on it. If I spend any more, like the $2,300 for the tranny, I'll really be underwater if I end up wanting to sell it. I really could use a 4WD rig in the winter here - with our hill, this truck doesn't work well when it snows. I'm looking for some guidance on the tranny problems... are some of those just normal Dodge stuff (like it not moving first thing in the morning), or are these all flashing danger signs?


Here's the list of stuff I've done... some of the labor I've done myself, and some I've paid my buddy to do when I didn't have time or the right equipment...
KDP fixed, including new gasket, seals, etc.
new Borgeson steering shaft
brakes - new booster, new master cylinder, new pads & rotors on front; new wheel cylinders, drums, shoes, hardware, seals on rear
new outer tie rod end
new starter
new lift pump
new door hinge bushings
front end parts bought but not installed yet - bushings, ball joints, springs

And here are the things going wrong with the rig now...
automatic transmission is dying... metal and clutch material in pan... $2,300 to rebuild and install
front end is extremely loose and sagging - needs bushings, ball joints, springs etc. I have all the parts, have not installed yet - $600 labor if I don't do it myself.
oil leak from vacuum / power steering pump - needs to be rebuit - $350?
hood release cable broken at handle, needs to be replaced - $65 part (using pliers currently)
raw diesel leak, from heater gasket above fuel filter? just a little time, I have the gasket.
Pacbrake is rusted in open position and disconnected (was this way when I bought truck) don't know ??
exhaust pipe is crushed above rear axle ??
needs muffler work ??

water leaking into cab, could be floor vent or new windshield
door hinges sagging, mirrors don't stay adjusted, driver's window out of mechanism
passenger power window does not work
power locks only lock from passenger switch, and do not unlock from any switch
driver's door lock sometimes will not unlock with key, takes a minute or two of fussing with to get it open. Outer handle moves... feels like sheet metal of door is thin / not reinforced
utility body - some of the rivets on the door hinges have corroded and come off, rivets need to be replaced to remaster hinges
some of the rivets on the fuel fill have corroded / are missing, need to be replaced, as well as the hose clamps on the fill hose
seats are non-standard
radio missing
sliding rear window latch is broken

Sorry for what turned out to be a *long* post. Any input you folks have would be appreciated. If any of my values are way off, please let me know.

Thanks,
-Norm.

RamGuy84

Well right off the Bat the windshield I bet is they slapped it in and didn't use any sealer . If the Body is Solid then why not do a 4x4 conversion to it ? it would take some time but would make the truck more useable. and then more fun for you also . most of us with these old Girl's love thm to Death .and will do most anything to keep them going . swapping to 4x4 isn't that hard and would raise the Value of the truck also .Or list it for sale and see what happen's you never know .

MrFusion

If you have no love for the particular vehicle and "just need something that runs" sell it. As these trucks age they become a labor of love. It sounds to me like you're already very frustrated with it. Lack of reliability can take the fun out of things very quickly.
I can't wait for my truck to be road worthy but I doubt it will ever be my primary vehicle. I will have to fix many engineering shortcuts before I consider it to be reliable.
I doubt you will get $4800 for a 4x2 a/t truck needing a transmission. Good luck with your decision.

patdaly

^^^^^ Great advice right here.

If as you say, you don't really "need" a truck then I would probably advise you to trade it off for a car before you spend any more money on it. I personally love the 98-02 Crown Vics, and have had very good luck with mine.

I will say though, that on any newer vehicle, when things go wrong, you can't crutch them to get you home like the old first gens like yours........ Just won't happen. That being said though, you have to almost be a lover of it to know all it's little tricks, for instance, if you hit mine with Ether to start it I would hit you as hard as I possibly could right square in the jaw........ But if you used the old can of WD-40 I keep in her for just such an occasion, I would be cool with it. I don't need to be replacing a head gasket anytime soon. If I kept yours, and had earlier had my heart set on a manual truck, I would use this as an excuse to swap it to a manual rather than rebuild the stock Auto............

In the end, you have to decide what you are willing to do, and from the sounds of your post, it might be time to look elsewhere, and that's too bad actually, these trucks tend to get under your skin, both good and bad.

loudhornsrule

Just get rid of it. I couldn't even read all that nonsense. That's a short book!

KRB

I'd rather read a long detailed post like this. than arunonpost with no punctuation and mispelings that ucant mak senseof because u don't know wher it starts or wher it ends or what theyrtryin to xplain

If your neighbor's tree fell on it would you cry or run smiling all the way from the insurance office to the bank? If you'd cry then consider what you've already done or soon will do will be fixed and you're that much further ahead. At this age though there will always be something (any brand, any motor).

Once the tranny is fixed and the front end freshened I can't think of any other infamous weak spots that you haven't already done other than expected routine maintenance, but someone else may correct me (there is the drip rail rust, cowl crack, weak brakes, etc...). Your OD could be a couple things, the TPS being expensive to R&R. I'll bet the crushed exhaust is choking your motor down though.

As stated above, a 4x4 conversion is doable, as is the swap to a manual. Then you'd have a highly coveted club cab 4x4 stick. There's several on this forum that have done it or are doing it.

If its just a truck to you then maybe go back to the vehicles you're familiar with and comfortable working on. But sell me the bumper first

u2slow

Stormin - you're basically spelling out the normal demise of these trucks. The Powertrain outlasts everything else. Finally the owner has enough of it, and unloads it. Next owner fixes a few things, but gets frustrated pretty quick as more of the truck expires, despite it otherwise running well.

Trust me... these are some of the last trucks that are easy to work on - and worth working on. Parts trucks go a long way in keeping costs down. I've got 7 different 75-93 dodges and if play 'Lego' long enough I'll have 5 pretty cool trucks.


^ Agreed.

That utility body looks low enough that it will accept a slide-in camper. I'd LOVE to find one of those.

DOZENVALVE

That's a bad *** looking rig. If it was mine I would find a donor rig and convert to 4wd and swap the trans whether it be another auto or a manual conversion.

If you don't love it, get rid of it.

My truck has given me hell time and again, but I'd still hate to have to get rid of it. Every time sone thig goes wrong with it I become a better mechanic and my knowledge for the truck and Diesel engines grows.

Like I said if you're not In love with first gens then you may want to get rid of it.

1992 Renegade

X2 on what MrFusion said, My truck left me on the side of the road twice last week in below 20 degree weather. Both times it was a easy fuel related problem but im going to say it sucks climbing up and changing the fuel filter in that kind of weather! Today I went and looked at a 2015 Eco Diesel crew cab but just can't justify spending almost 40K for a new truck.

thrashingcows

I agree....Seems like you bought someone else problem. But it's great to see that you have been stepping up and fixing things as needed.

When I bought my crewcab it had the running gear I wanted in it...Cummins/NV4500....but the rest of the truck was a disaster. Took me 6-9 months of work in the driveway before I even got to drive it regularly....and that after spending a lot of good money on the truck! So I do know how your feeling.

But if the truck is not what you REALLY want, then get rid of it now or you will never really have the love for it necessary to keep it on the road.

But as others have suggested....a Getrag or NV4500 swap could be done for about the same money as the tranny rebuild. And then there is always the 4wd conversion.

Personally I'd loose that huge front bumper, and the utility bed...bet you'd pick up 2-3 mpg with just those gone. And as noted, the exhaust being restricted probably is not helping fuel economy either.

And I have to agree with Mr. Martin....you wrote and excellent thread, with lots of information and well thought out sentences, grammar and punctuation....it was a pleasure to read.

MrFusion

As KRB, J Martin, and Cows said: I would rather read a long post with all of the relevant information, with decent grammar and punctuation than waste time on multiple posts trying to understand someone's poor grammar, total lack of punctuation and inadequate description of their problem.

StorminN

Thanks folks...

Sorry if my post seemed rant-ish, I was just a little frustrated. If this truck was 4WD and manual, I think I would put up with / fix the rest of the quirks (especially the water leak in the cab)

I'll have to read about the 2WD -> 4WD conversions. Is it pretty straightforward? Is there a "dummy's guide" to manual transmissions for these rigs... ie., Getrag vs. NV4500, strengths and weaknesses of each, how many speeds they each have, how to identify them, etc.?

I imagine a manual conversion would involve new rear differential gears as well? If I lost the big bumper and swapped a flatbed for the utility body, what should I expect for mileage with average-to-tall rear-end gears (I don't tow much).

Thanks,
-N.

patdaly

For the swap, here is a guide to at least let you know what you have to do.

Be forewarned, this guy is over the top, his work is beautiful, but will probably make you say "I can't do that". Look at the process, not the level of detail he goes into......... otherwise you will go nuts.

https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...0-w250-314771/

And nope, you either have 3.54 or 4.11 gears, both are completely suitable for the manual swap, matter of fact, they work better with the 3.54's.....

Alec

I think your post was very good. It is clear you are down on the truck, but it is also clear what is going on with it to get you down. And it is written better than many folks with an MA might do these days.

Getting a good transmission in the truck might have a huge effect on your opinion of the truck. I think it is fair to say that this engine needs a properly tuned automatic, or a manual transmission, to really shine.

You should be able to swap in a manual transmission for about $3k. Obviously where you are & how lucky you are will affect that price, and which transmission you go for, but that would be my number for argument's sake. You would not have to make any changes to the rear axle, etc. though, if I recall correctly, you will have to have the driveshaft modified in a 2wd truck. Overall it is a pretty simple swap.

Converting to 4x4 is very doable, but, in my opinion, you really have to want a 4x4 dodge 1st gen and enjoy doing the work to decide to undertake a project of that magnitude. Not to mention, go without the truck for a longer period.

I assumed from the lettering on the door that you need the utility body & rack. The bumper looks great, in my opinion, but is much heavier than it needs to be -- you could probably trade it for a good stock bumper & come out ahead if you wanted.

My truck, with a similar utility body full of tools, dump insert, and 4wd gets about 17 mpg in the winter, and 19 in the summer. I live at the top of a 1000' climb at something on the order of 6% (the sign just says "steep") -- before I moved up here, I was getting over 20 mpg in the summer.

So far as I can tell, everything else just needs repairs, or better repairs. A pain, but there are a lot of good ideas, many to be found on this site, to fix most of those problems.

Good luck figuring out what is going to be best for you!

MrFusion

I bought a new old stock NV4500 with updated main shaft, cast iron transfer case adapter, AA conversion bell housing kit, shifter stick, and 2.5 gallons of the correct trans fluid from Midwest Transmission for $2500 delivered to PA. No core charge either. I would suggest converting to a 2nd gen transmission cover (the plate bolted to the back of the engine that the bell housing bolts to), bell housing and starter. The reason for this is that you will need a 1st gen throw out lever with the AA set up and they are basically made out of unobtanium.