j_martin

I think I see the flaw in your design......if I may. I don't have the calcs, but I do have some experience in fluid dynamics. Used to design glycooler run around heat recovery systems.

fact: In order to make horses, you need fuel in quantity delivered to cylinder. It also has to be delivered frequently... 60 times per second per cylinder at 3600 rpm.

fact: fuel has mass and viscosity, both resist pumping effort, especially in the intake part of the pump. (filling a pump cylinder)

fact: A VE pump has one pumping cylinder, requiring 3600 strokes per second.

fact: A P pump has 6 pumping cylinders, requiring 60 strokes per second per cylinder.

Most of us have fed big injectors with a VE. We've been able to deliver fuel, but a lot of it doesn't burn, indicating low actual injection event pressures.

The problem is that the VE is just too busy to get that much work done.

I don't think you can achieve your goals with the VE. You might get pretty close with a P pump, but to get truly large volume high pressure injection events, you'll have to go common rail.

Don't get me wrong. For moderate power production, plenty for towing and even goofing around wasting tires, the VE is up to the task. It's also relatively easy and cheap to service, as are the injectors, making experimenting affordable.

just my humble geriatric opinion.

PapeCAT

Good day, Levi:

You have a first gen, and part of being considered an legit part of the "first gen" crowd whilst entering the dyno wars etc, is sticking to a VE. More than once in this thread, the advice has been to"step up" to a common rail. Well let me tell you this, a lot of the common rail people want to step down to a mechanical pump, myself included.

For higher displacement VE applications, check out this thread:

VE 6.7 conversion - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together

What you will see is that with the bigger 6.7L displacement and the higher flow 24V VP Head and HE351VE/CW turbo, you will have a very responsive and reliable diesel motor that not many are doing.

If you start with a core 6.7 block, you don't have to mess with crank grinds for clearing the 5.9 block nor custom rods and pistons due to side load concerns.

Unsolicited advice I know, but get your core big displacement motor build done and running with a VE first, and THEN focus on upping the VE fueling/tuning as you drive and test. The VE is put on many applications, even as recent as 10 years ago on agricultural versions of a 6.7L Cummins among tons of other applications over the past 30+ years. I'm sure there is a lot of reading to do to catch up with what has already been done and might help steer you in the right direction when the time comes to bomb and push the VE to the most reliable limit.

Also, going back to the common rail suggestions - I don't suggest it. I "stepped up" to a common rail after 10 years and more than my share of first gen VE trucks, and well, I'm still not completely happy with the joystick control of the motor. (read Lag) I want a stainless steel cable pulling a mechanical lever on an injection pump.

dodgenstein

Since the Cummins is a 4 cycle engine it only fires once for every 2 revolutions. Your numbers are double what they should be.

j_martin

You're right. Hot rod outboards on the brain I guess.

The principle is still the same, just not as extreme. 6 times the events.

That said, I will admit folks have gotten some extreme performance out of the venerable VE. Like others have said, you have to wonder about reliability though. It's plenty of pump for anything I'd want to drive and buy fuel for.

Rick 12v CTD

That's the route I suggested and referenced that build but didn't post the link.

such a cool build... I wonder if the extra displacement makes much more power. If I had money to burn I'd love to do something like this. Or alternatively, I'd love to be the guy to tune that guys afc and set his pump up. I think I could do well making it pretty smoke free and squeezing all the power out of it as possible.

1972RedNeck

I don't think it is wise for one to let Rick anywhere near the vicinity of their engine.

J/K - I'm just dumbfounded by your crappy luck.

Rick 12v CTD

LOL

I don't even understand my luck with motors... It's not even just my motor. It seems everything the last year turns sour on me in all areas of my life

Ah well, that's how she goes I guess.

patdaly

It will turn around, don't feel bad, we all seem to go thru it at some point.

I went for quite a while killing big block Chevys...... Then poof, like magic even junkyard builds done on the garage floor didn't come apart at 6500.....

I guess the old adage of sometimes the Gods require blood is true.

CoolGuyLevi

Update!!!

I bought a 24 valve block head combo. I have it all torn apart. waiting to find a few more parts like the 6.7 crankshaft. also im still confused as to what would be a good compound turbo set up for a 6.1L Cummins in the low rpm ranges... im almost thinking a stock hx-35 and an ATS Aurora 3000? The Ats 3000 is good to 600 hp I believe.

1972RedNeck

I think the ATS 3000 is a good single.

I bet an HE351CW over something like an S472 would spool lightning fast and light quick on a 6.1L engine.

Rick 12v CTD

the a3000 is almost the same size as an hx35. It is a terrible match with an hx35 in a compound setup. An s472 or a5k would be alright in a set of compounds with an hx35. the a4000 is also not a good primary turbo, it's ok as a secondary with an external wastegate if you have really high hp goals

As an aside, if you go .040" pistons with stock bottom end of the 5.9 it is essentially a 6.0l with the added displacement of boring it. You gain 7 or 8 cubic inches total by boring the motor 0.040" over. The extra displacement is still fairly inconsequential regardless.

Obviously, it's just an opinion but I think for simplicity (and there's still a cool factor because so few have done it) you should just VE pump that 24V motor. It actually wouldn't be hard to do at all. All you really need is custom injector lines I think. Run the 24v block, head, pistons, injectors (set to VE pop pressures). Food for thought anyway.

When I was building my motor I had entertained the idea of building a 24v VE or ppump motor. It would be a nice setup.

1972RedNeck

VP44 lines work with adapters - people use tread inserts.

https://www.belmetric.com/ts12151-m1...th=217_219_258

$11.64 vs whatever custom lines cost.

patdaly

I just saw that over on the 6.7 build thread.............. I wonder if anyone would think I was nuts to pull a perfectly good P-Pump 215 Hp 12 valve and drop in a VE 6.7..................

We have used timesert repair parts, good stuff for when you don't have room for Jergens...... They should work like a champ as an adapter.

Rick 12v CTD

nifty! That makes life easy

I think custom injector lines are not that expensive actually. Just read on CF someone gets ppump custom lines for like $60 out of the UK for this builds.

patdaly

They have come down, my only usual concern in a situation like that is what do I do if I break one in Pigsknuckle Ark. on a Saturday night?