Bouncy dually fix - or how to center your dually wheels
08-02-2009, 10:05 PM
#16
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2nd Gen. should be hub-centric with nuts more on the order of the Ford-style flanged-washer type; so, NO, this won't help you, unless you have the old style wheels on your truck.
Dave, if those front nuts are 1-1/16, you could very-well have Ford nuts on there, PROVIDING the stud-thread/size is the same as Ford.
I know for a fact that every pre-1993 DRW Dodge truck, be it 2WD or 4WD, has the SAME nuts all around, front and rear, so those you have are unique to your truck.
Dave, if those front nuts are 1-1/16, you could very-well have Ford nuts on there, PROVIDING the stud-thread/size is the same as Ford.
I know for a fact that every pre-1993 DRW Dodge truck, be it 2WD or 4WD, has the SAME nuts all around, front and rear, so those you have are unique to your truck.
08-03-2009, 08:36 PM
#21
Registered User
08-03-2009, 10:50 PM
#22
Registered User
If by "tapered nuts", you are meaning plain old conical lug-nuts, then someone most likely has replaced the silly flanged nuts with the more proper conical nuts, probably for the very reason that Dodge recommends using the conical nuts to center the wheels in the first place.
Those flanged nuts are an example of bad engineering and poor lug-nut choice on the part of Chrysler.
My theory on the choice to use the flanged nuts is in a mis-guided effort to stabilize and spread the stress around the prone-to-crack bolt-circle, while still using the coined lug-centric wheels.
They should instead have either followed after Ford by using hub-centric wheels and flanged-washer nuts, or like GM with hub-centric wheels and the seperate reinforcing plate.
I am almost certain that Ford DRW Dana-70 hub-centric wheels will also fit the Dodge Dana-70 and still be hub-centric, in which case one would also need either the flanged-washer nuts or the GM plates.
In my community, there are at least two 1st Gen. DRW trucks running around with lathe-modified to fit hub-centric GM wheels and plates.
If a true smooth ride is desired, I would recommend having someone lathe-cut a set of GM wheels to precision-fit the Dodge hub.
08-04-2009, 01:01 AM
#23
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My experience is close. I would like to add 1 very important point;
Lug nut tork on my 93 is about 400fp!
EDIT! torque as per owners manual is 300 -350 fp for DRW 5/8 x 18 flanged lug nuts. 
Also check the gap between the hub and the inside of the rim as well as the lip runout.
I first bought my truck, Tires had good tread on one side, roll it over 1/2 turn its wore out. Shakes so bad it trys to pull the wheel out of your hand. Kinda humps up and down a little sometimes at slow speed. Not very constant though.
I bought new Toyo A/T 235 85 16s helped a little maby, not much. BUT after about only 7 miles the right front started to rattle. Stopped and found the wheel was coming off! Tightened all 6 up a little and went back to the shop. Shop hands told me there were carefully toked to 185fp I tell them its supposed to be 400 with cone nut centering ( I read the owners manual when the wheel came loose). They tell me there is no way it takes 400fp. I ask him how much cash he has on him as I pull out my trusty owners manual (this bet has happened 3 or 4 times). I also point out the gap between one of duellie flanges that are not properly coined. I now keep 4 conical lug nuts in the truck and make sure the techs know about the strange details of the first gen DRW.
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Lug nut tork on my 93 is about 400fp!
EDIT! torque as per owners manual is 300 -350 fp for DRW 5/8 x 18 flanged lug nuts. Also check the gap between the hub and the inside of the rim as well as the lip runout.
I first bought my truck, Tires had good tread on one side, roll it over 1/2 turn its wore out. Shakes so bad it trys to pull the wheel out of your hand. Kinda humps up and down a little sometimes at slow speed. Not very constant though.
I bought new Toyo A/T 235 85 16s helped a little maby, not much. BUT after about only 7 miles the right front started to rattle. Stopped and found the wheel was coming off! Tightened all 6 up a little and went back to the shop. Shop hands told me there were carefully toked to 185fp I tell them its supposed to be 400 with cone nut centering ( I read the owners manual when the wheel came loose). They tell me there is no way it takes 400fp. I ask him how much cash he has on him as I pull out my trusty owners manual (this bet has happened 3 or 4 times). I also point out the gap between one of duellie flanges that are not properly coined. I now keep 4 conical lug nuts in the truck and make sure the techs know about the strange details of the first gen DRW.
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08-04-2009, 01:07 AM
#24
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08-04-2009, 07:21 AM
#25
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I must say that I have grown up, starting a very long time ago I might add, in a large full-service tire-shop, servicing everything from hand-dolly tires to Timber-Jacks and everything in between.
That being said, errrr...... typed, any lug-nut torque over 140-ft/pds is getting rather over-board, and 300-plus is just plumb ridiculous.
I bet the torque recommendations on the same coined wheels with good old conical nuts is not nearly so high.
I do know that the DRW Dodges that do have the silly flanged nuts always seem to have crossed-threads on the studs and come off hard all the way; there is no such thing as getting the nuts loose and then being able to spin them the rest of the way off with your fingers.
Unless the studs are made of some kind of alien space-ship steel, with that kind of overly-high torque, the studs are going to stretch and fatigue, thus being more apt to loosen themselves with each subsequent tightening, until one day they snap off.
One other point I will make.
Being in and around this shop ever since I was in diapers, it has been my own personal observation that, due to the near minimum-wage and zero chance of advancement offered, there are no (or very few) mechanical geniuses working in tire-shops.
Knowing that, I would highly recommend anyone needing tire work to leave the truck at home, taking only the wheels to the shop, thus minimizing the damages possible to the truck.
In all the years that I have been driving, NO ONE but me has ever messed with the tires on any of my vehicles, and I have NEVER had a cross-threaded stud or a wheel to come loose.
Another thing, and also due to the low wages and zero incentives, unless a problem is so bad as to be really obvious, very few tire-monkeys are going to "feel" for bearing condition or loose steering and suspension components, nor examine the condition of the brakes/rotors and such; and, most owners are not going to check all of this out at home later, so something that could have been addressed with maybe no expense at all is not noticed until expensive parts have failed.
That being said, errrr...... typed, any lug-nut torque over 140-ft/pds is getting rather over-board, and 300-plus is just plumb ridiculous.
I bet the torque recommendations on the same coined wheels with good old conical nuts is not nearly so high.
I do know that the DRW Dodges that do have the silly flanged nuts always seem to have crossed-threads on the studs and come off hard all the way; there is no such thing as getting the nuts loose and then being able to spin them the rest of the way off with your fingers.
Unless the studs are made of some kind of alien space-ship steel, with that kind of overly-high torque, the studs are going to stretch and fatigue, thus being more apt to loosen themselves with each subsequent tightening, until one day they snap off.
One other point I will make.
Being in and around this shop ever since I was in diapers, it has been my own personal observation that, due to the near minimum-wage and zero chance of advancement offered, there are no (or very few) mechanical geniuses working in tire-shops.
Knowing that, I would highly recommend anyone needing tire work to leave the truck at home, taking only the wheels to the shop, thus minimizing the damages possible to the truck.
In all the years that I have been driving, NO ONE but me has ever messed with the tires on any of my vehicles, and I have NEVER had a cross-threaded stud or a wheel to come loose.
Another thing, and also due to the low wages and zero incentives, unless a problem is so bad as to be really obvious, very few tire-monkeys are going to "feel" for bearing condition or loose steering and suspension components, nor examine the condition of the brakes/rotors and such; and, most owners are not going to check all of this out at home later, so something that could have been addressed with maybe no expense at all is not noticed until expensive parts have failed.
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jimtmcdaniels (11-11-2019)
08-04-2009, 07:31 AM
#26
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Did some more research and it seems my front lug nuts are not original stock nuts. They are Securex MF39946 units. They have been on the truck since I got it. I have not found an online source for them.
In the attached pic you can just barely make out "SECUREX" forged into the washer.
In the attached pic you can just barely make out "SECUREX" forged into the washer.
http://fleetowner.com/mag/fleet_whats_new_wheels_2/
What's new in wheels
Oct 1, 1997 12:00 PM
System integrity depends on proper torque loads. It's hard to imagine a circumstance more horrifying to truck drivers or the motoring public than helplessly watching a 500-lb. dual tire/wheel assembly that has separated from its hub careening wildly down the highway.
Statistically, it would appear that these are quite rare events. Indeed, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has projected that only 750 to 1,050 truck-wheel separations occur annually, accounting for about 40-50 fatalities a year. Most truck safety experts, however, say that wheel-offs are actually a more common occurrence. This discrepancy probably exists because fleets aren't likely to report wheel-off incidents that don't result in accidents.So it's probably not that wheel-offs are few and far between -- just underreported.
Shop mechanics and drivers are the industry's first line of defense in avoiding wheel-offs; they must be vigilant in checking for fastener tightness. In addition to reducing wheel separations, torque-checking measures can avoid wheel cracking and other costly damage.
As part of the pretrip inspection routine, drivers are required to check wheel fastener security. In the shop, technicians must be extra careful about following prescribed mounting procedures, and make certain that every wheel assembly is secured with the proper clamping force to eliminate movement at the wheel /hub interface. Whether hub-centered, stud-centered, or cast spoke, wheel systems depend on the force of properly torqued fasteners to produce the high-tensile load necessary to keep them secure.
According to Consolidated Metco/Con Met, insufficient clamping force is the prime reason for wheel stud fatigue and failure. In a recent technology bulletin, the company talks about maximizing wheel-stud life by making sure there's sufficient friction to prevent motion at the wheel/hub interface. This is usually achieved by torquing fasteners properly.
This assumes, of course, that wheel and attaching hardware are in good condition and that hub, drum, and wheel are correctly aligned. There are a number of reasons why fasteners can loosen, including the presence of foreign material or soft paint between components, damaged threads on studs and/or nuts, and bent, cracked, or corroded studs.
When a stud is damaged, Consolidated Metco suggests replacing the stud on either side; if two or more are damaged, all studs should be replaced.
Wheel fastener systems consist of high-quality parts -- not just studs, but flange nuts, or cap nuts, for example. For many years, however, there has been a low-level problem with counterfeit wheel fasteners.
Indeed, some junk fasteners have been implicated in high-profile accidents. As a result, Congress passed the Fastener Quality Act. This landmark law attempts to deal with the difficult subjects of lot traceability and standards of conformity for the high-strength fasteners. Since wheel hardware is critical, reputable manufacturers produce it to rigid specifications, in the prescribed hardness grade.
In response to the new law, Metform Corp. has taken improved the markings on its fasteners to include the "Securex" brand name and a special alphanumeric identification code.
Metform's two-piece flange nuts, which are used by many wheel OEMs, are designed to provide the requisite clamping force by allowing some rotation between the two hardened surfaces of the fastener as it is tightened to its torque value. This results in a bearing-type action that allows more torque to be transmitted directly into the clamping force. At the same time, this interaction provides for a much more precise torque-to-clamp force relationship, allowing t.he fastening system to be used at the optimum end of the load range.
Disc-Lock America has just won a British Institute of Road Transport Engineers' award for the greatest contribution to safety with its wheel fastener. This specially designed fastener is gaining acceptance, and is specified in the U.S. and Canada by a number of major bus municipal fleets. The company expects a further substantial boost to sales with the announcement that vehicle insurance-premium discounts are becoming available that help to offset installation cost.
A safety system that is said to eliminate the possibility of losing a wheel due to vibration or improper lug nut maintenance has recently been introduced by U-Lock Technologies. The system, which uses a set of special fastener caps linked with a thin cable, prevents adjacent lug nuts from loosening. Finger force is all that's required to push the U-Locks into place on wheel fasteners; the system is designed for easy installation and maintenance.
Other recent technical developments include the latest offering from Alcoa, which has incorporated an improvement that makes hub-piloted wheels easier to demount. A precision groove recessed into the wheel-hub bore reduces by 50% the area of wheel-hub contact where corrosion can build up, causing wheels to "freeze" in place.
Oct 1, 1997 12:00 PM
System integrity depends on proper torque loads. It's hard to imagine a circumstance more horrifying to truck drivers or the motoring public than helplessly watching a 500-lb. dual tire/wheel assembly that has separated from its hub careening wildly down the highway.
Statistically, it would appear that these are quite rare events. Indeed, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has projected that only 750 to 1,050 truck-wheel separations occur annually, accounting for about 40-50 fatalities a year. Most truck safety experts, however, say that wheel-offs are actually a more common occurrence. This discrepancy probably exists because fleets aren't likely to report wheel-off incidents that don't result in accidents.So it's probably not that wheel-offs are few and far between -- just underreported.
Shop mechanics and drivers are the industry's first line of defense in avoiding wheel-offs; they must be vigilant in checking for fastener tightness. In addition to reducing wheel separations, torque-checking measures can avoid wheel cracking and other costly damage.
As part of the pretrip inspection routine, drivers are required to check wheel fastener security. In the shop, technicians must be extra careful about following prescribed mounting procedures, and make certain that every wheel assembly is secured with the proper clamping force to eliminate movement at the wheel /hub interface. Whether hub-centered, stud-centered, or cast spoke, wheel systems depend on the force of properly torqued fasteners to produce the high-tensile load necessary to keep them secure.
According to Consolidated Metco/Con Met, insufficient clamping force is the prime reason for wheel stud fatigue and failure. In a recent technology bulletin, the company talks about maximizing wheel-stud life by making sure there's sufficient friction to prevent motion at the wheel/hub interface. This is usually achieved by torquing fasteners properly.
This assumes, of course, that wheel and attaching hardware are in good condition and that hub, drum, and wheel are correctly aligned. There are a number of reasons why fasteners can loosen, including the presence of foreign material or soft paint between components, damaged threads on studs and/or nuts, and bent, cracked, or corroded studs.
When a stud is damaged, Consolidated Metco suggests replacing the stud on either side; if two or more are damaged, all studs should be replaced.
Wheel fastener systems consist of high-quality parts -- not just studs, but flange nuts, or cap nuts, for example. For many years, however, there has been a low-level problem with counterfeit wheel fasteners.
Indeed, some junk fasteners have been implicated in high-profile accidents. As a result, Congress passed the Fastener Quality Act. This landmark law attempts to deal with the difficult subjects of lot traceability and standards of conformity for the high-strength fasteners. Since wheel hardware is critical, reputable manufacturers produce it to rigid specifications, in the prescribed hardness grade.
In response to the new law, Metform Corp. has taken improved the markings on its fasteners to include the "Securex" brand name and a special alphanumeric identification code.
Metform's two-piece flange nuts, which are used by many wheel OEMs, are designed to provide the requisite clamping force by allowing some rotation between the two hardened surfaces of the fastener as it is tightened to its torque value. This results in a bearing-type action that allows more torque to be transmitted directly into the clamping force. At the same time, this interaction provides for a much more precise torque-to-clamp force relationship, allowing t.he fastening system to be used at the optimum end of the load range.
Disc-Lock America has just won a British Institute of Road Transport Engineers' award for the greatest contribution to safety with its wheel fastener. This specially designed fastener is gaining acceptance, and is specified in the U.S. and Canada by a number of major bus municipal fleets. The company expects a further substantial boost to sales with the announcement that vehicle insurance-premium discounts are becoming available that help to offset installation cost.
A safety system that is said to eliminate the possibility of losing a wheel due to vibration or improper lug nut maintenance has recently been introduced by U-Lock Technologies. The system, which uses a set of special fastener caps linked with a thin cable, prevents adjacent lug nuts from loosening. Finger force is all that's required to push the U-Locks into place on wheel fasteners; the system is designed for easy installation and maintenance.
Other recent technical developments include the latest offering from Alcoa, which has incorporated an improvement that makes hub-piloted wheels easier to demount. A precision groove recessed into the wheel-hub bore reduces by 50% the area of wheel-hub contact where corrosion can build up, causing wheels to "freeze" in place.
08-04-2009, 12:50 PM
#27
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My experience is that if the DRW flanged lugs are torqued to 185fp the wheels will come off in less than 5 miles. The PO had the same experience. I now stick to the torque values in the owners manual. I use 4 conical lugs and a small pry bar to center the front wheels on the hub. paying close attention to the gap between the hub and the wheel to double check center. Be certain that the rears are coined correctly. The rears on my truck are hub centered. Truck now drives smooth, tires wear properly and the wheels dont fall off. All of which are good things.
btw just checked owners manuel; DRW 5/8 X18 flanged lug nuts torque; 300 to 350 fp
btw just checked owners manuel; DRW 5/8 X18 flanged lug nuts torque; 300 to 350 fp
08-04-2009, 01:45 PM
#28
Administrator
08-04-2009, 03:50 PM
#29
Registered User
Has anyone ever heard of putting oil between the nut and washer on the Securex nuts?
I also looked in my chilton manuel today and for 8stud dual wheels the torque is 145ft.lbs and for a 8 stud single it is 135ft. lbs.
I also looked in my chilton manuel today and for 8stud dual wheels the torque is 145ft.lbs and for a 8 stud single it is 135ft. lbs.
08-04-2009, 04:56 PM
#30
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Thread Starter
Those flanged nuts are an example of bad engineering and poor lug-nut choice on the part of Chrysler.
My theory on the choice to use the flanged nuts is in a mis-guided effort to stabilize and spread the stress around the prone-to-crack bolt-circle, while still using the coined lug-centric wheels.
I would NOT run cone shaped nuts on my truck.
If yours don't fall off then you must have them tight enough.
