meltdown
09-20-2014, 01:31 AM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
meltdown
Running to town in the Cummins tonight, lights started acting funny, radio started cutting out, about a mile to the old schoolhouse with some outdoor lights. Didn't make it. Everything pretty well cut out, coasted in, with smoke rolling from under the hood. Melted down the body grounds. Headlight ground, alternator ground, and battery cables OK. The one body ground wire was arcing across to the negative battery terminal after the insulation melted off. I hooked them all with my fingers and pulled, and broke them. Lights came back on, so an old man who stopped, helped me make a jumper for my relay, and got my low beams working so I could get it home.
The engine wouldn't shut off til I ripped all the body grounds off the batteries. Then it would. But it still restarts, too.
The lights and radio were the only things on. And the headlights are on relays.
I'm not looking forward to tearing apart the entire engine harness looking for the short.
If someone showed up with $3000 and a trailer I really think I would take it, and throw in the upper control arms, driver's door, spare wheels, and new coil springs I have sitting here for it. And maybe even the 4 or 5 gallons of Valvoline premium blue, too.
Getting tired of working on junk.
The engine wouldn't shut off til I ripped all the body grounds off the batteries. Then it would. But it still restarts, too.
The lights and radio were the only things on. And the headlights are on relays.
I'm not looking forward to tearing apart the entire engine harness looking for the short.
If someone showed up with $3000 and a trailer I really think I would take it, and throw in the upper control arms, driver's door, spare wheels, and new coil springs I have sitting here for it. And maybe even the 4 or 5 gallons of Valvoline premium blue, too.
Getting tired of working on junk.
09-20-2014, 03:15 AM
#2
Registered User
Sometimes it feels like one step forward and two steps back.
On the positive side, the simplicity of the vehicle allowed you to get home with a little rigging. Can't do that with many others, especially newer ones.
Sometimes you have to go to bed and sleep on it. A few days later you'll have a different perspective - maybe.
In stead of tearing the harness apart looking for the short, it may be easier/better just to start new? Wiring in what you need as you need or all at once?
Either way good luck.
On the positive side, the simplicity of the vehicle allowed you to get home with a little rigging. Can't do that with many others, especially newer ones.
Sometimes you have to go to bed and sleep on it. A few days later you'll have a different perspective - maybe.
In stead of tearing the harness apart looking for the short, it may be easier/better just to start new? Wiring in what you need as you need or all at once?
Either way good luck.
09-20-2014, 06:10 AM
#3
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Wow !
Sorry to hear about your misfortune of a night. On the bright side, you did get home.
After reading other stories (years ago) about similar happenings like you had, I started a proactive regiment to prevent this kind of problem with my 92.
I bought the truck in 2011 and did a lot of work to it.
I've never put the heater fan on " High ", as for one, I don't need it, but also it makes me nervous about it's current draw on a 20 year old fan and Chrysler's crappy wiring. Someday, I may put the heater relays in, but for now, I just keep the fan on low or medium.... or off...
I wish you luck that your repairs are simple. If I lived closer, I'd be more than willing to give you a hand, but since you're so far away, I think my wife would be mad a me for not being home for dinner.
Sorry to hear about your misfortune of a night. On the bright side, you did get home.
After reading other stories (years ago) about similar happenings like you had, I started a proactive regiment to prevent this kind of problem with my 92.
I bought the truck in 2011 and did a lot of work to it.
- disassembled, cleaned and reassembled the fuse box
- Cleaned all grounds, FSS Tabs, all connections under the hood
- Jim lane's headlight relays
- Jim Lane's Alternator grounding
- extra grounds from block to frame to battery
- added an extra fuse block for accessories only
- re-clean grounds every 6 months since
- and finally...... replaced all my fusable links with the big fuses
I've never put the heater fan on " High ", as for one, I don't need it, but also it makes me nervous about it's current draw on a 20 year old fan and Chrysler's crappy wiring. Someday, I may put the heater relays in, but for now, I just keep the fan on low or medium.... or off...
I wish you luck that your repairs are simple. If I lived closer, I'd be more than willing to give you a hand, but since you're so far away, I think my wife would be mad a me for not being home for dinner.
09-20-2014, 10:48 AM
#4
Registered User
I agree with KRB and NJT.
I love to diagnose and improve vehicle electrics.
That being said, it is the hardest thing to diagnose when one is not there first-hand, with the problem vehicle right before their eyes.
In your case, I would do as suggested, forget about the factory "harness", and run new BIGGER wires, ONE AT A TIME, until I had each and every one much better than when new.
Clean and shiny, then crimp and solder, are the key to good electrical work.
Don't fall prey to any of the "quick and easy" wire splicing devices.
A good wiring diagram SPECIFIC to your year-model/engine will show you where to begin and end, but is not a "must have" to accomplish the task.
I don't like to have a bunch of "advisors" around when I am doing such work; in fact, I don't want anyone around who feels they must "help" , UNLESS they know what they are doing --- sadly, most don't.
Besides the factory fuse-link mess, two of the most common problem-causers are the under-wired power-window and blower-fan circuits, especially where they connect into the fuse-block; on most trucks, these two fuses will have melted themselves into the fuse-block.
On the vehicle in question, are the original fuse-links still in place; have they been properly replaced with a well-thought-out plan, or has someone just cobbled around problems as they came up ??
I love to diagnose and improve vehicle electrics.
That being said, it is the hardest thing to diagnose when one is not there first-hand, with the problem vehicle right before their eyes.
In your case, I would do as suggested, forget about the factory "harness", and run new BIGGER wires, ONE AT A TIME, until I had each and every one much better than when new.
Clean and shiny, then crimp and solder, are the key to good electrical work.
Don't fall prey to any of the "quick and easy" wire splicing devices.
A good wiring diagram SPECIFIC to your year-model/engine will show you where to begin and end, but is not a "must have" to accomplish the task.
I don't like to have a bunch of "advisors" around when I am doing such work; in fact, I don't want anyone around who feels they must "help" , UNLESS they know what they are doing --- sadly, most don't.
Besides the factory fuse-link mess, two of the most common problem-causers are the under-wired power-window and blower-fan circuits, especially where they connect into the fuse-block; on most trucks, these two fuses will have melted themselves into the fuse-block.
On the vehicle in question, are the original fuse-links still in place; have they been properly replaced with a well-thought-out plan, or has someone just cobbled around problems as they came up ??
09-20-2014, 11:16 AM
#5
Registered User
Sorry to hear of your trucks electrical misfortune. 
I agree with KRB...if you can walk away from Merle for a few days that can help change your outlook.
I'm scared every time I get in the crewcab of something like this happening. I am slowly upgrading the systems like T-Man has done. And the advice from BK about wiring connections...only way to do it....mechanical crimp, then solder, then I put di-electric grease over the connection, then slip my shrink tubing over and seal it up.
I agree with KRB...if you can walk away from Merle for a few days that can help change your outlook.
I'm scared every time I get in the crewcab of something like this happening. I am slowly upgrading the systems like T-Man has done. And the advice from BK about wiring connections...only way to do it....mechanical crimp, then solder, then I put di-electric grease over the connection, then slip my shrink tubing over and seal it up.
09-20-2014, 12:13 PM
#6
Registered User
When repairing/modifying/improving electrical systems, whether in a vehicle, tobacco-barn, or house, that word "slowly" is an understatement.
To do things right, nothing happens quickly; hence is why so many paid mechanics strip wires with a pocket-knife, twist them together, and wrap with a big wad of black tape; people just have no comprehension of just how many hours are involved in even the simplest of tasks --- when they are done right --- and consequently are not willing to pay for the many extra hours involved.
If I had to pay someone one-dollar per hour for everything that has been done on my truck, I would have had to park it back in the weeds years ago.
09-20-2014, 03:56 PM
#7
Registered User
When repairing/modifying/improving electrical systems, whether in a vehicle, tobacco-barn, or house, that word "slowly" is an understatement.
To do things right, nothing happens quickly; hence is why so many paid mechanics strip wires with a pocket-knife, twist them together, and wrap with a big wad of black tape; people just have no comprehension of just how many hours are involved in even the simplest of tasks --- when they are done right --- and consequently are not willing to pay for the many extra hours involved.
If I had to pay someone one-dollar per hour for everything that has been done on my truck, I would have had to park it back in the weeds years ago.
To do things right, nothing happens quickly; hence is why so many paid mechanics strip wires with a pocket-knife, twist them together, and wrap with a big wad of black tape; people just have no comprehension of just how many hours are involved in even the simplest of tasks --- when they are done right --- and consequently are not willing to pay for the many extra hours involved.
If I had to pay someone one-dollar per hour for everything that has been done on my truck, I would have had to park it back in the weeds years ago.
Right now I am trying to source out 10-12 gauge male and female connectors that fit into OEM headlight and wiring shells, all to do my headlight relay upgrade properly. I prefer to do things over kill....then Uhh good enough.
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09-20-2014, 05:59 PM
#8
Registered User
Any parts store has high temp H4 pigtail plugs. Installed with a crimp and solder butt connection, they should be adequate.
14 g short run from relays near the battery will have minimal voltage drop. (prox 1%) Of course the 16g running all over the truck and through half a dozen connectors and switches stock wiring is short of adequate.
Here's some high quality pigtails if you would like.
Here's a nifty wire size calculator.
09-20-2014, 06:35 PM
#9
Administrator
Why do you need 12g male? If you get your relay signal from the headlamp connector, it's only a fraction of an amp.
Any parts store has high temp H4 pigtail plugs. Installed with a crimp and solder butt connection, they should be adequate.
14 g short run from relays near the battery will have minimal voltage drop. (prox 1%) Of course the 16g running all over the truck and through half a dozen connectors and switches stock wiring is short of adequate.
Here's some high quality pigtails if you would like.
Here's a nifty wire size calculator.
Any parts store has high temp H4 pigtail plugs. Installed with a crimp and solder butt connection, they should be adequate.
14 g short run from relays near the battery will have minimal voltage drop. (prox 1%) Of course the 16g running all over the truck and through half a dozen connectors and switches stock wiring is short of adequate.
Here's some high quality pigtails if you would like.
Here's a nifty wire size calculator.
...Mark
09-20-2014, 08:21 PM
#11
Registered User
Why do you need 12g male? If you get your relay signal from the headlamp connector, it's only a fraction of an amp.
Any parts store has high temp H4 pigtail plugs. Installed with a crimp and solder butt connection, they should be adequate.
14 g short run from relays near the battery will have minimal voltage drop. (prox 1%) Of course the 16g running all over the truck and through half a dozen connectors and switches stock wiring is short of adequate.
Here's some high quality pigtails if you would like.
Here's a nifty wire size calculator.
Any parts store has high temp H4 pigtail plugs. Installed with a crimp and solder butt connection, they should be adequate.
14 g short run from relays near the battery will have minimal voltage drop. (prox 1%) Of course the 16g running all over the truck and through half a dozen connectors and switches stock wiring is short of adequate.
Here's some high quality pigtails if you would like.
Here's a nifty wire size calculator.
And this is why I like overkill....
09-20-2014, 08:24 PM
#12
Administrator
09-20-2014, 09:32 PM
#13
Registered User
I'm re-using the headlight, and other connectors from the of shore crappy headlight relay kit. May as well re-use what I can. The male spades are grossly under sized IMO. So I will be running 12ga wire to the headlights, and though most of the system. Also since I have Day Time Running Lights (DRL) I have to run off the passenger side headlight. So I need a lot longer run of wire.
And this is why I like overkill....
And this is why I like overkill....
Assuming the run from the relay to the headlight is 10', and the load is 65 watts, the difference between 12g and 14g wire would be 0.05 volts. I doubt you could detect that by the brightness of the light.
What you're replacing is 14g wire running through multiple switches and connectors, and feeding a bulb that is grounded by a 22 gauge black wire. Total voltage drop is a couple of volts. Most of the gain is to be had by the shortened circuit path and lack of lossy connectors.
If the connectors in the kit are junky, don't use them.
You may have noticed that I don't believe in overkill. I believe in one well placed shot that does the job. It's called doing the math.
09-20-2014, 10:35 PM
#14
Registered User
The wire from the original headlight connector to the relay coil could be 24g telephone wire, and it wouldn't make any difference. The "grossly undersized" wire provided is well suited to the task of hauling 0.3 amps to the coil of the relay.
Assuming the run from the relay to the headlight is 10', and the load is 65 watts, the difference between 12g and 14g wire would be 0.05 volts. I doubt you could detect that by the brightness of the light.
What you're replacing is 14g wire running through multiple switches and connectors, and feeding a bulb that is grounded by a 22 gauge black wire. Total voltage drop is a couple of volts. Most of the gain is to be had by the shortened circuit path and lack of lousy connectors.
If the connectors in the kit are junky, don't use them.
You may have noticed that I don't believe in overkill. I believe in one well placed shot that does the job. It's called doing the math.
Assuming the run from the relay to the headlight is 10', and the load is 65 watts, the difference between 12g and 14g wire would be 0.05 volts. I doubt you could detect that by the brightness of the light.
What you're replacing is 14g wire running through multiple switches and connectors, and feeding a bulb that is grounded by a 22 gauge black wire. Total voltage drop is a couple of volts. Most of the gain is to be had by the shortened circuit path and lack of lousy connectors.
If the connectors in the kit are junky, don't use them.
You may have noticed that I don't believe in overkill. I believe in one well placed shot that does the job. It's called doing the math.
But what about AMPS? Will the 14 or 16 Gauge wire handle the amperage load of the headlights?
But thank you for enlightening me...I do appreciate it.
09-20-2014, 11:45 PM
#15
Registered User
The math method works for a brand-new system, all in perfect order; overkill is for later down the road when all that new stuff is getting old.
On a similar note, some years ago I was reading a forum thread about how a certain run of house wire could just as well be served with 14/2 instead of 12/2. The discussion went on for pages about voltage drops over distances, amps drawn, etc. Graphs were provided; mathematical equations were drawn. Although it wasn't my project, they almost had me convinced; then, I happened to be in the hardware store and saw that 250' rolls of 12/2 were about $20 less than 14/2 of the same identical brand.
On a similar note, some years ago I was reading a forum thread about how a certain run of house wire could just as well be served with 14/2 instead of 12/2. The discussion went on for pages about voltage drops over distances, amps drawn, etc. Graphs were provided; mathematical equations were drawn. Although it wasn't my project, they almost had me convinced; then, I happened to be in the hardware store and saw that 250' rolls of 12/2 were about $20 less than 14/2 of the same identical brand.
