Big Bob

I would like to hear from those of you who know from facts the Pro's and Con's to the Cummins with EGR.

I talked with a Detriot Diesel Technical advisor and he said that the EGR will not make any performance difference. For those of you who have facts, please share them for all of us.

RCW

Your Detroit guy is sort of correct as long as you run within the factory power specifications. What the EGR does is lower the combustion temperatures, so reduced oxides of nitrogen are generated. In fact that does translate into power losses if you are looking for maximum power and engine efficiency.

However, on all electronically controlled diesel engines equipped with the EGR, the engine management system will compensate for the EGR, and no matter what you do to the fueling the EGT will not get above 900 degrees unless you fool the EGR and EGT sensor circuits. If you get caught fooling the EGR and EGT it is now a major federal crime, and that is why most of the big rig diesel tuners that did this service have moved to Canada or Mexico (keeps them out of jail) or have gone underground and only do work by reference.

All the diesel manufacturers will decertify any dealer or authorized service shop caught tampering with the new systems.

The good news is that the new electronics are so efficient that they are able to generate a lot more power out of a low temperature fuel burn, so most people would not know the difference (unless they intend to bump the power).

Frankly, it is safer to start a big corporation and screw the stockholders out of their money, and your employees out of their pensions, than it is to now tamper with an EGR equipped diesel.

kry226

But what about the fuel mileage issue? Worse mileage with EGR like every one says? This is apples and oranges, but my V-8 gasser 4x4 pickup gets 18-19 mpg on the highway w/ EGR. Not bad if you ask me. Are the diesel emissions so different that an EGR will kill the already great mileage?

P.S. Yes, I am new and I don't own a Dodge yet, but I've been lurking for a while, so be gentle.

RCW

As long as an electronically controlled diesel is stock, the EGR has no impact on mileage.

Where it bites you is when you bump the fuel rate and the combustion temperatures to gain more power (which is what you do when you boost the power on any diesel engine). The EGR will dump burnt exhaust gasses into the intake manifold as it tries to lower the combustion temperatures. That process will make the engine burn less efficiently and loose fuel economy.

It simply is not worth dinking around with the EGR on an electronically controlled diesel engine. Just run it like it was designed.

On a gas engine, they do not use sensors in the exhaust system to measure EGT. So simply defeating the EGR on an electronically injected and managed gas engine will generally lead to lean run predetonation because there is no way to increase the fueling rate (without a chip modification), so the automatic knock detection circuits retard timing to eliminate the knocking from pinging, lowers the power, and issues a ton of error codes. The net result is lower gas mileage.

doug

Frankly, there's much that we don't know about the Cummins EGR system. We think that intakes might clog up with soot (due to fuel sulfur content) like the TDIs but there's no confirmation of this. We think that engine modifications will be difficult and expensive (and maybe illegal) yet fueling boxes are here today on the EGR Fords. So most of the conjecture you will read is largely true and has good theoretical and even experimental basis, but when it comes down to understanding exactly what the impact is to the Cummins engine compared to what it is today, we really are not sure of very much.

I'll offer some additional support to the "difficult and expensive (and maybe illegal)" part. Even though fueling boxes are available today for the Fords, these same boxes have never had to meet CA emissions which, come January, are imposed across the whole U.S. of A.

Berak

If what everyone saying is true then how are all these companies offering power upgrade boxes for the new Ford 6.0 which has EGR? Just curious on the facts here, something isn't lining up.

doug

As I say, the Ford 6.0L PSD boxes DO NOT MEET the emissions regulations imposed starting January 2004. Theres a very informative little hint on the Edge website that reveals quite a bit, with respect to the 2003 Ford PSD fueling box:

Legal in California only for racing vehicles which may never be used upon a highway.

If you ask me, this means that the fueling box industry is under scrutiny and that to keep the feds away from their door, they have to say this. I expect it is also the truth -- that it is illegal to run a 6.0 PSD in california with an Edge box. kind of like buying off-road diesel.

The reason the Edge statement is so informative is becasue in January, 2004 the Federal EPA regs will be the SAME as the CA regs.

EGR itself isn't hard to deal with, according to Lawrence at Diesel Dynamics. of course, he wasn't talking about the new Cummins EGR (he was talking about the Fords) and he wasn't refering to CA emissions stds.

I happen to share RCW's concern about the new boxes on the EGR engines and the possibility that putting one on may be considered "tampering" with the EGR system. one of the reasons the EPA lobbied for EGR instead of allowing post-combustion treatment methods was because EGR is not as easily defeated. So it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see local inspections looking for performance chips and fueling boxes -- even inspecting OBD II information for the signature of a fueling box. I mean, we really don't know but when you realize that the WHOLE USA now (January 2004) equals CA in terms of emissions regs, you can see that the ability to enforce such regs will become very important to those passionate about it.

DF5152

[quote author=kry226 link=board=20;threadid=19770;start=0#msg186091 date=1063841953]
But what about the fuel mileage issue? Worse mileage with EGR like every one says? This is apples and oranges, but my V-8 gasser 4x4 pickup gets 18-19 mpg on the highway w/ EGR. Not bad if you ask me. Are the diesel emissions so different that an EGR will kill the already great mileage?

P.S. Yes, I am new and I don't own a Dodge yet, but I've been lurking for a while, so be gentle.


[/quote]
what r u driving now that gets that kid of milage? can it tow anything?

Push Rod

[quote author=Doug link=board=20;threadid=19770;start=0#msg186395 date=1063906222]
Legal in California only for racing vehicles which may never be used upon a highway.
[/quote]

All this means is the box is not CARB approved and if the box is attached while undergoing emissions testing and its discovered, you will fail the test, whether you meet standards or not. As far as I know, there are no laws which make it illegal to modify your vehicle (this would be so completely against the constitution), but if the vehicle cannot pass testing, it can only be used off-road.

CARB approval is also an expensive, lengthy process and many manufacturers don't go through the hassle of getting CARB approval. I'm not sure if any of Edge's stuff has been sent through CARB. TST's Powermax 1 is actually the only CARB approved diesel mod that I'm aware of.

Rod

quantrill88

not sure if im not following or what but does this mean that BOMBING will be drastically changed or even eliminated with the new EGR diesels?

NORM

As a Machinest/Welder for a Caterpillar dealer I don't work on engines, but we all attend store meetings by the engine dept of our dealer structure. We hear about what they think they know about other engine mfg's strategies and directions. EGR is one topic that is talked about, Cat has not choosen to go that way. Emission limits are being reduced by the EPA to a 2008 "box" and it has the mfg's working overtime. You could start looking at the issue here http://www.epa.gov/otaq/hwy.htm
Norm

Scotty

Norm, I have been in your town a few times. Never thought I'd see somone on here from there. ;D