So what does everyone think about Russia messing around with Georgia for one they blew up a Georgian naval ship and the stole 4 of our the USA's humvees from the port to the Black Sea. And today they cut all ties to NATO,I don't know what they are up to but it's no good[director].

i agree. they are about to get themselves in a world of EDIT though

can anyone say 'Cold War Part 2' ?????????

Yeah I hear you there,it made me so mad to see that Russian on the news climbing into one of my humvees to drive it off and do who knows what to it.

Let's just push the button and get the real war started. That will settle it. Where's Bush when we need him?

Why are we even in Russia? Not tryin to stir up a hornets nest but why does America always stick their nose in everything. There are plenty of places right here in the U.S. that could use some of the money we spend overseas. This country seems intent on building up everywhere but here. I dont like seeing some Russian steal a Humvee either but why are taxpayer humvees even in Russia to be stolen in the first place?

We really have more problems ourselves than we can handle. The last thing we need to do is send more troops to yet another country. What I foresee happening, is we get ourselves so spread out without enough troops to defend the homeland, and BAMMO! Next thing you know we are attacked for real, right here on American soil. This will be like Red Dawn fellas! Except it won't be Russians.......it will be China! We are so overextended right now that we won't see the national debt gone for 30 - 40 years, IF EVER, at this rate. I say bring 'em all home. Save the money, stay out of everyone else's business, and use the troops to secure the border. Let's fix OUR problems first. How can we fix everyone else's problems, when we really don't have a handle on our own?

Food for thought.

I hear you on the tax payers money all over the world but what's done is done,and these other countries know what they are doing. I love this country and would die for it in a heart beat just to keep my friends and family safe,but it better be for a Edit good cause that's for sure.

We really have more problems ourselves than we can handle. The last thing we need to do is send more troops to yet another country. What I foresee happening, is we get ourselves so spread out without enough troops to defend the homeland, and BAMMO! Next thing you know we are attacked for real, right here on American soil. This will be like Red Dawn fellas! Except it won't be Russians.......it will be China! We are so overextended right now that we won't see the national debt gone for 30 - 40 years, IF EVER, at this rate. I say bring 'em all home. Save the money, stay out of everyone else's business, and use the troops to secure the border. Let's fix OUR problems first. How can we fix everyone else's problems, when we really don't have a handle on our own?

Food for thought.

i could of swore we were overseas due to the fact that OUR twin towers were struck by two of OUR plains!?!? or is that none of our business? Or am i wrong?

i could of swore we were overseas due to the fact that OUR twin towers were struck by two of OUR plains!?!? or is that none of our business? Or am i wrong?
Dude, Russians didnt hijack the planes.

he is talking about us being overseas period! afganistan (spelling)

i could of swore we were overseas due to the fact that OUR twin towers were struck by two of OUR plains!?!? or is that none of our business? Or am i wrong?

+1.. Besides,

Since when are we in Russia anyway? Those Humvees were Georgian Humvees that they bought off the U.S.

Since when are we in Russia anyway? Those Humvees were Georgian Humvees that they bought off the U.S.

........because they're are allies. i don't understand, on one hand people say that the U.S. is arrogant, and we hate the rest of the world and they hate us, yet when we support our allies people ask why we're sticking our noses in another countries' business.
can't have it both ways- either we're arrogant, and screw everyone else or we support our allies and we all love each other- please pick 1.

........because they're are allies. i don't understand, on one hand people say that the U.S. is arrogant, and we hate the rest of the world and they hate us, yet when we support our allies people ask why we're sticking our noses in another countries' business.
can't have it both ways- either we're arrogant, and screw everyone else or we support our allies and we all love each other- please pick 1.

I'm pretty sure we do NOT have troops in Russia, Were would they be? U.S. bases inside Russia? I don't think so.. Those Humvees were NOT owned by the U.S. We did fly a few "Humanitarian" flights in Georgia but obviously that is not Russia...

Why are we even in Russia?
We're NOT in Russia!! Russia invaded Georgia.
I dont like seeing some Russian steal a Humvee either but why are taxpayer humvees even in Russia to be stolen in the first place?

The Humvees weren't in Russia they were in Georgia. I believe they were there for a joint training missions or something to that effect. They were slated to be shipped back to us just before Russia INVADED Georgia. Georgia wanted to be part of NATO but was denied. I'm not sure why but as soon as the denial was made Russia went on the offensive.
I'm sure the Humvees are in Russia now!![verymad][verymad]

I'm pretty sure we do NOT have troops in Russia, Were would they be? U.S. bases inside Russia? I don't think so.. Those Humvees were NOT owned by the U.S. We did fly a few "Humanitarian" flights in Georgia but obviously that is not Russia...

sorry, i meant Georgia are our allies- wasn't referring to Russia.

I hear you on the tax payers money all over the world but what's done is done,and these other countries know what they are doing. I love this country and would die for it in a heart beat just to keep my friends and family safe,but it better be for a D@m# good cause that's for sure.

What do WE as a country stand to gain? Oil? Power? These countries have been at war since the beginning of time! Our government thinks WE have the power to change the way these people think, and/or how they live their lives? It is a way of life for them and their ancestors.....they don't know anything different. Let them be.

i could of swore we were overseas due to the fact that OUR twin towers were struck by two of OUR plains!?!? or is that none of our business? Or am i wrong?

In my opinion, there han't been any substantial proof WHO was responsible for those attacks......shoot.....I could have taken credit for them! I think there were a lot of trumped up claims of WMD's and all. All this was , was for JR. to finish what SR. screwed up.

Dude, Russians didnt hijack the planes.
True
he is talking about us being overseas period! afganistan (spelling)

Again.......we won't change those people's beliefs or way of life. It is what it is and has been since before the times of Christ.
+1.. Besides,

Since when are we in Russia anyway? Those Humvees were Georgian Humvees that they bought off the U.S.
I think we will end up there..........going by the track record of our current leaders.

........because they're are allies. i don't understand, on one hand people say that the U.S. is arrogant, and we hate the rest of the world and they hate us, yet when we support our allies people ask why we're sticking our noses in another countries' business.
can't have it both ways- either we're arrogant, and screw everyone else or we support our allies and we all love each other- please pick 1.

I'm sorry......we need to look out for ourselves FIRST! So I guess that would fall under the "screw everybody else" category. We have people here in the U.S. that are having a hard time getting by thanks to NAFTA, and all of the AID we send to every other 3rd world nation that has it's daggone hand out! Let's start at home, and if there is anything else left to give out, let it go to a majority decision on the ballot every couple of years. But then again.....the whole vote would get screwed up by changing it to an electoral college and different states would have a bigger say..yada yada yada......what was wrong with the simple process of a majority vote anyhow? Sorry......delving off into a diferent rant!

sorry, i meant Georgia are our allies- wasn't referring to Russia.


Now that makes more sense,... By the way, I looked it up and those Humvees were in fact U.S. Humvees. They were there for a joint military excerise,.

I am glad to hear others point of view on this touchy subject,they should use the lo-jack on those hummers to find them :-). Everyone has something to say about these over seas issues don't lose track of what we live for is the land of the free and the home of the brave and you and I both know we aren't always right but we have a lot of friends in this world don't forget that.

Yeah I knew that that's why I wrote it I don't know where that guy was comming from.

vzdude. I guess you didnt read up to much into the 9-11 thing because they already came up with the evidence of afgan trying to do it beofer but failed and 9-11 was there second try and they got it. And what were all the phone calls from people on the plains about? They sure saw afgan people hijacking the plane they were on. As for the people here that need help, i agree with you cause we dont have places for them to work. No wait thats in afgan we have places for lazy people to work but they are LAZY! I went threw the struggling period cause i thought hanging out with friends and doing stupied stuff was better. But i got off my butt and got a job and im doing fine!

Not that I am a firm believer of all of the conspiracy theories and all, but I watched a movie a while back, and it really got me to thinking......FWIW....suffer through it if you can......listen to half of it, and take none of it as any sort of truth , but at least consider it...........

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331&hl=en

I'm sure the Humvees are in Russia now!![verymad][verymad]

x2 on the extremely angry smilies. ticks me off to see those Russian weasel thieves making of with U.S. taxpayer property.
i think they're some in Russia that are still very ticked that we won the cold war, and they'd like to see the reformation of the Soviet Union.

The Humvees weren't in Russia they were in Georgia. I believe they were there for a joint training missions or something to that effect. They were slated to be shipped back to us just before Russia INVADED Georgia.[verymad][verymad] Didnt mean to upset you so much, this is just a discussion. All Im trying to understand is what are our humvees doing in a country that was denied access to Nato, and that sits right between Turkey, Russia, Iran and Iraq. Joint training exercise?

As for the people here that need help, i agree with you cause we dont have places for them to work. No wait thats in afgan we have places for lazy people to work but they are LAZY! I went threw the struggling period cause i thought hanging out with friends and doing stupied stuff was better. But i got off my butt and got a job and im doing fine! Everyone is glad to hear your doing fine but its not just about that. I think what he was trying to say is that our money, American money, could go to improve schools, police forces, infrastructure of this country. We are not trying to help Georgia, we are trying to gain yet another strategic military position.

We are not trying to help Georgia, we are trying to gain yet another strategic military position.

Russia invaded a country. Wouldn't you want help if say the state police invaded you in your house? This is the size difference between the 2 countries. Weither you thinkn it's right or not somebody out there needs help and the world is coming to realize that they need help and helping them.

Russia invaded a country. Wouldn't you want help if say the state police invaded you in your house? This is the size difference between the 2 countries. Weither you thinkn it's right or not somebody out there needs help and the world is coming to realize that they need help and helping them.

OK, so how far are you willing to take it? All out nuclear war between the two powers with the biggest nuclear arsenals? Wake up.

........and here they go. lets hear a big welcome back for the Soviet Union:



WARSAW, Poland - The United States and Poland signed a deal Wednesday to place a U.S. missile defense base just 115 miles from Russia — a move followed swiftly by a new warning from Moscow of a possible military response.

OK, so how far are you willing to take it? All out nuclear war between the two powers with the biggest nuclear arsenals? Wake up.

If we started huking nukes at each other you wouldn't have to worry about anything because a good majority of the US and Russia would be gone. I'm not saying all out war with Russia, but if somebody doesn't do something with them they will try and stream roll over Eastern Europe. Don't know if you know the events that lead up to the second World War, but Nazi Germany rolled it's troops into Czechlaslavkia (spelling?). It seems to me like the bully in the lunch room taking everybody's lunch but somebody steps infront of them and makes them stop and lets them know it's wrong.

On a side note, love it out there in Smith Valley, parents live up in Minden.

Yeah I just got done reading that about the missles in Poland,Russia is scared and like a bully the picked on the little guy Georgia. Only time will tell,when I was in school and I saw a bully picking on a little guy I helped the little guy.

improve schools and police forces? That is done everyday, it doesnt help when you have twice as many idiots that dont care about the police force then you do people on the police force! There is no way in the world that we could have enough police forces or schools to cover our fast growing country! So instead we put our army where we need them so we can have our country period! No sense in having all the money here when afgan comes and takes over. So much for police forces and schools cause with them here we wont need it! That is why we spend the money to protect it. An i wasnt boasting on myself i was just saying that no matter what police forces or anyone does we are still going to have people out there causing havok. The decision is all on the person not anyone else.

If Don't know if you know the events that lead up to the second World War, but Nazi Germany rolled it's troops into Czechlaslavkia (spelling?). It seems to me like the bully in the lunch room taking everybody's lunch but somebody steps infront of them and makes them stop and lets them know it's wrong.



that is EXACTLY right.. That is how it started and if we don't keep an eye on this situation, this is what will start WWIII.

Didnt mean to upset you so much, this is just a discussion.
You didn't upset me at all..my anger is with the Soviets, err I mean Russians!!
All Im trying to understand is what are our humvees doing in a country that was denied access to Nato, and that sits right between Turkey, Russia, Iran and Iraq. Joint training exercise?
Our Humvees were there long before this country was denied NATO membership.
This country is our ally and we and our Humvee were there for joint training. The idea is not only do we train our troops while we're there but we also train the Georgians and strengthen our relationship with a Democratic country on the border of the soviets err I mean Russians.
Everyone is glad to hear your doing fine but its not just about that. I think what he was trying to say is that our money, American money, could go to improve schools, police forces, infrastructure of this country.
There has been tons of money going to all of these things...part of the reason for our current deficit and debt.
We are not trying to help Georgia, we are trying to gain yet another strategic military position.
Actually we're doing both. By helping Georgia we improve relations with a current ally plus we show the other little countries in the region that we are their friends. Had NATO accepted Georgia the Soviets I mean Russians would not have launched this attack. With our support of these countries we're gaining access to other ex soviet countries. Remember these countries weren't previously part of the soviet union by choice they were captured. We can't allow this to happen again!!

If we started huking nukes at each other you wouldn't have to worry about anything because a good majority of the US and Russia would be gone. I'm not saying all out war with Russia, but if somebody doesn't do something with them they will try and stream roll over Eastern Europe. Don't know if you know the events that lead up to the second World War, but Nazi Germany rolled it's troops into Czechlaslavkia (spelling?). It seems to me like the bully in the lunch room taking everybody's lunch but somebody steps infront of them and makes them stop and lets them know it's wrong.

On a side note, love it out there in Smith Valley, parents live up in Minden.

That's why I ask just how far are you willing to take it? Who stops the fight before the nukes start flying?

This is also why McCain will win the election. Because he is seen as Mr. Tough Guy. It's the latest form of the October surprise.

Oh, and yeah, Smith Valley is a very nice and peaceful place with great 4 wheeling. Wish I was there tonight! Send me a PM when you plan to come out next time.

Think about it though, there are umptine reasons for the US to want to get involved with Georgia and Russia, I would believe, that oil might be a good reason to want georgia to still be one of our allies, and having them in good terms with us gives us good position for troops in the middle east.

Think about it though, there are umptine reasons for the US to want to get involved with Georgia and Russia, I would believe, that oil might be a good reason to want georgia to still be one of our allies, and having them in good terms with us gives us good position for troops in the middle east.

funny you should mention oil:


Georgia, which you can see in the green, is between the Caspian Sea and the Black Sea. Now, there's not much oil, as you said, in Georgia, but there is in the Caspian Sea and in those countries around it, Russia, Iran, Kazakstan, Turkmenistan. So, that oil goes to Baku in Azerbaijan, that little star on the end of the Caspian Sea.

And it goes through four pipelines to different places. The top one goes to Russia into the Black Sea. The red line goes to a Georgian port on the Black Sea and the green line goes down to Turkey, where that oil to the Middle East and to European countries.

British Petroleum, BP, leads a consortium of Western companies that run three of those pipelines. And they have shut them all down now. Two of them were shut down this morning. One of them, this big green one which through Azerbaijan, through Georgia into Turkey and out to the Middle East, that actually, Brianna, got shut down last week because Kurdish rebels had attacked that pipeline. It had caught fire and was shut down.

So, most of the oil that goes through Georgia wasn't getting through anyway. BP has said that none of the pipelines that it manages in that part of the world have been attacked or are damaged, other than that situation in Turkey, which happened last week.

They say they are shutting down the pipelines out of caution because of the spreading that Fred was just referring to. They are worried about it. Now, at the moment, it's just a shutdown of oil. Oil is not running through it. If there were to be damage to these pipelines, which, by the way, are mostly underground, that would be a problem for the world, because it's about a million barrels of oil a day. That would affect our consumption of oil.

I should tell you the world produces about 87 million barrels oil a day and we use about 85 million barrels of oil a day. So, there's less than two million barrel spread, which is why even though it's just about a million barrels a day, it becomes a big deal in this environment.



so it appears that while they produce very little oil, unrest in Georgia has a direct affect on BP's bottom line and if Russia takes control of Georgia, they will take control of BP's pipeline. very interesting........

vzdude. I guess you didnt read up to much into the 9-11 thing because they already came up with the evidence of afgan trying to do it beofer but failed and 9-11 was there second try and they got it. And what were all the phone calls from people on the plains about? They sure saw afgan people hijacking the plane they were on.

You do know that most of the 9/11 hi jackers were from Saudi, right? Afghanistan is the safe haven, but is not actually the one responsible. Would be nice to see distinctions between fringe groups and countries.

Russia invaded a country. Wouldn't you want help if say the state police invaded you in your house? This is the size difference between the 2 countries. Weither you thinkn it's right or not somebody out there needs help and the world is coming to realize that they need help and helping them.

Whats the difference between Russia invading Georgia and the US invading Iraq? Both were pre-emptive, both on nations that have weak militaries, both that have been thorns in the side of their respective invaders since the cold war. Both showed very little justification for it, ignored any criticism of their moves, and will likely be in both countries for years to come.

improve schools and police forces? That is done everyday, it doesnt help when you have twice as many idiots that dont care about the police force then you do people on the police force! There is no way in the world that we could have enough police forces or schools to cover our fast growing country! So instead we put our army where we need them so we can have our country period! No sense in having all the money here when afgan comes and takes over. So much for police forces and schools cause with them here we wont need it! That is why we spend the money to protect it. An i wasnt boasting on myself i was just saying that no matter what police forces or anyone does we are still going to have people out there causing havok. The decision is all on the person not anyone else.


That is like putting up a barbed wire fence around a septic tank. Sure its protected, but its full of crap. To be abroad invading countries, when you don't have enough police or schools for you population seems very counterproductive. The US didn't get to where it is by being a military might. Ingenuity (which comes from education) and order made it what it is. If you want a strong military, an uneducated and unorganized populace, look at China.

Russia invaded a country. Wouldn't you want help if say the state police invaded you in your house? This is the size difference between the 2 countries. Weither you thinkn it's right or not somebody out there needs help and the world is coming to realize that they need help and helping them.

To some extent, you are correct. I guess I am just tired of it always being MY money , that is going off to some third world country because they are getting picked on.......There are countries a LOT closer, with much more interest in the outcome, than us. Thats all I'm getting at.

You do know that most of the 9/11 hi jackers were from Saudi, right? Afghanistan is the safe haven, but is not actually the one responsible. Would be nice to see distinctions between fringe groups and countries.



Whats the difference between Russia invading Georgia and the US invading Iraq? Both were pre-emptive, both on nations that have weak militaries, both that have been thorns in the side of their respective invaders since the cold war. Both showed very little justification for it, ignored any criticism of their moves, and will likely be in both countries for years to come.




That is like putting up a barbed wire fence around a septic tank. Sure its protected, but its full of crap. To be abroad invading countries, when you don't have enough police or schools for you population seems very counterproductive. The US didn't get to where it is by being a military might. Ingenuity (which comes from education) and order made it what it is. If you want a strong military, an uneducated and unorganized populace, look at China.

Bingo! [coffee] No difference between Russia attacking Georgia and the US attacking Iraq. But it grows the Governments and allows them to tighten the reins on the people. AKA patriot act.

Whats the difference between Russia invading Georgia and the US invading Iraq? Both were pre-emptive, both on nations that have weak militaries, both that have been thorns in the side of their respective invaders since the cold war. Both showed very little justification for it, ignored any criticism of their moves, and will likely be in both countries for years to come.

Just a couple little differences, Sadam Hussien killed 100,000's of his own people. He was a bad dude, there is nothing anybody can say about that. Georgia has a free gov't. Nobody there is getting killed by there own Gov't because they are a different backround. If somebody can live free of oppression and not have to worry about their Gov't killing them, is that what it is all about?

That's why I ask just how far are you willing to take it? Who stops the fight before the nukes start flying?

This is also why McCain will win the election. Because he is seen as Mr. Tough Guy. It's the latest form of the October surprise.

Oh, and yeah, Smith Valley is a very nice and peaceful place with great 4 wheeling. Wish I was there tonight! Send me a PM when you plan to come out next time.

I know exactly what you are saying. I don't want the nukes to fly either, but I also don't want WW3. Things just seem to be lining up right now.

Yeah love the wheelin out there, will do. Oh yeah, who owns that big house right under the big SV?

To some extent, you are correct. I guess I am just tired of it always being MY money , that is going off to some third world country because they are getting picked on.......There are countries a LOT closer, with much more interest in the outcome, than us. Thats all I'm getting at.

It's my money and time also. I guess I think that I don't mind helping somebody else out. If I can make the difference for one person in the world to live a better life, that helps me get through the day. I've been there seen the third world countries and thank God for everything I have. Thats just me though.

Bingo! [coffee] No difference between Russia attacking Georgia and the US attacking Iraq. But it grows the Governments and allows them to tighten the reins on the people. AKA patriot act.

Not exactly the case.

I do not believe there were any International sanctions placed upon Georgia prior to the invasion.

Somehow I don't see Putin being nearly as patient as Bush........

Yeah I just got done reading that about the missles in Poland,Russia is scared and like a bully the picked on the little guy Georgia. Only time will tell,when I was in school and I saw a bully picking on a little guy I helped the little guy.

I find it interesting that no one is asking Russia why they are scared of weapons who's only capability is defense.

After all, why would Russia be worried, unless they always intended to attack?

I find it interesting that no one is asking Russia why they are scared of weapons who's only capability is defense.

After all, why would Russia be worried, unless they always intended to attack?

Uh can I get a BINGO here?!?!?!?
That's exactly why they're worried. Reagan wanted to share the missile defense with them but wanted nothing of it. Since they have little financial power their major strength is intimidation. If a missile defense system can take down their nukes before they cross their borders the have no real way to intimidate others.
The bullies hate it when they lose their bluffing power!!

[QUOTE=diesel_burner;2183871]Just a couple little differences, Sadam Hussien killed 100,000's of his own people. He was a bad dude, there is nothing anybody can say about that. Georgia has a free gov't. Nobody there is getting killed by there own Gov't because they are a different backround. If somebody can live free of oppression and not have to worry about their Gov't killing them, is that what it is all about?

The problem with this is that we have now killed over 650,000 Iraqis as of last years estimate. Millions have fled. We have lost over 4000 of our troops and are coming up on a Trillion dollars in debt because of it.

Bush promoted the war with lies to you and me about mobile weapons factories and mushroom clouds over New York in 45 minutes, etc.

Iraq was a sovereign country that did nothing to us. Our invasion was planned by the neo cons in 1998 as part of the Project for New Americam Century, PNAC. Look it up.

McCain says we may be there for 100 years and he's OK with that.



If this is the kind of country we want to have we will be bankrupt and in perpetual war. It's iresponsible to simply say it's all OK because Saddam was a bad "dude".

[QUOTE=Raspy;2184235The problem with this is that we have now killed over 650,000 Iraqis as of last years estimate. Millions have fled. We have lost over 4000 of our troops and are coming up on a Trillion dollars in debt because of it.

Bush promoted the war with lies to you and me about mobile weapons factories and mushroom clouds over New York in 45 minutes, etc.

Iraq was a sovereign country that did nothing to us. Our invasion was planned by the neo cons in 1998 as part of the Project for New Americam Century, PNAC. Look it up.

McCain says we may be there for 100 years and he's OK with that.



If this is the kind of country we want to have we will be bankrupt and in perpetual war. It's iresponsible to simply say it's all OK because Saddam was a bad "dude".[/QUOTE]

Where would we be today if we had not gone into Iraq and removed Sadam from power for his people to try him? This issue seems like a catch 22 because if we had not gone in and did what we did, we could have got attacked again and then everybody would have blamed President Bush. Not to get to far off topic but I don't think people understand the thinking of these radicals. These people hate everything about You, Me, and everybody who wants to live free. These guys spread like wildfire, they live in mud huts and are looking for something and they get caught up, just like a kid living in East L.A. with gangs. You have some valid points, but this is going to be something that divides thinking of the American people until we have no more threat from radicals who hate our way of life, but this is the beauty of America we can have discussions like this. My point is I would rather take the fight to them before they bring it to us.

There is not going to be a short anwser to slove America's problems, which I know are there. I think we will pull out of our situation, but it's not going to be tomorrow.

So, I guess you can say I agree to disagree.

We WERE NOT ATTACKED by Iraq in the first place. And never would have been. After all what would they have attacked us with? Their massive navy or their huge air force or maybe their supply of ballistic missles capable of travelling 100s of miles and striking deep in the US. No where in our constitution does it say we are the protectors of the universe. It actually says quite the opposite. But then again it's just a blankity blank piece of paper in the way of our current crop of demoncrats and republirats. If we attacked them because of how they were treating their people why havn't we attacked China? Why havn't we attacked Darfur? Why havn't we attacked any of the other countries where the same offenses occur on a regular basis. The first lie was the weapons of mass destruction when that failed to work they started the because he mistreats his people line. What's the next one?

I remember when a very small country was invaded, Panama. What was that all about. Ok so it has a big trench running through it.
Invading other countries is wrong no matter who it is. But it has been going on since there was tribes fighting for hunting grounds. It will keep going on till there is no one left to fight, for a god,a country, or a bigger potato.

Those radicals have been making war with each other and living the way they choose to live for 1000s of years. It's their lifestyle. Unless the US thinks they can kill off every single living radical Islamic being in the far east it's a waste of US taxpayer money. And 10 million or so is a lot of killing.

Just a couple little differences, Sadam Hussien killed 100,000's of his own people. He was a bad dude, there is nothing anybody can say about that. Georgia has a free gov't. Nobody there is getting killed by there own Gov't because they are a different backround. If somebody can live free of oppression and not have to worry about their Gov't killing them, is that what it is all about?

Its funny, when Saddam gasses his own people, he was being supported by the US. No one seems to mention that though. It was with weapons supplied the US. No matter, it is an internal affair of a nation. Would you look at it as being OK if China or Russia invades the US in the name of protecting human rights, for unlawful detention of 'illegal' enemy combatants? When the executive branch won't even listen to the rulings of the Supreme Court, there is definite issues.

Not exactly the case.

I do not believe there were any International sanctions placed upon Georgia prior to the invasion.

Somehow I don't see Putin being nearly as patient as Bush........

What does sanctions have anything to do with the equation? That just means the UN (which Bush really has no respect for, John Bolton was a good example of that) is not trying to punish them, not neccisarily the nearest super power. Sanctions were placed on Iraq for having WMD. To this day, there has yet to be any found, so the sanctions placed on that country for 12 years were a mistake. Those sanctions killed their economy, increased disease, decreased literacy, increased poverty, etc. All because 'they had WMDs'. Its a shame Bush never let the weapons inspectors finish their tours before he pulled the plug, this mess could have been avoided.

Where would we be today if we had not gone into Iraq and removed Sadam from power for his people to try him? This issue seems like a catch 22 because if we had not gone in and did what we did, we could have got attacked again and then everybody would have blamed President Bush. Not to get to far off topic but I don't think people understand the thinking of these radicals. These people hate everything about You, Me, and everybody who wants to live free. These guys spread like wildfire, they live in mud huts and are looking for something and they get caught up, just like a kid living in East L.A. with gangs. You have some valid points, but this is going to be something that divides thinking of the American people until we have no more threat from radicals who hate our way of life, but this is the beauty of America we can have discussions like this. My point is I would rather take the fight to them before they bring it to us.

There is not going to be a short anwser to slove America's problems, which I know are there. I think we will pull out of our situation, but it's not going to be tomorrow.

So, I guess you can say I agree to disagree.

I know Mcoleman already said it, but I will reiterate; Iraq did not attack the US. Never has, and likely never will. Al Qaeda is the ones responsible, and they didn't enter Iraq until AFTER the US invasion.

Whats the difference between Russia invading Georgia and the US invading Iraq? Both were pre-emptive, both on nations that have weak militaries, both that have been thorns in the side of their respective invaders since the cold war. Both showed very little justification for it, ignored any criticism of their moves, and will likely be in both countries for years to come. To be abroad invading countries, when you don't have enough police or schools for you population seems very counterproductive. The US didn't get to where it is by being a military might. Ingenuity (which comes from education) and order made it what it is. If you want a strong military, an uneducated and unorganized populace, look at China.
I couldnt have said it better.

Those radicals have been making war with each other and living the way they choose to live for 1000s of years. Very true.

Think about it though, there are umptine reasons for the US to want to get involved with Georgia and Russia, I would believe, that oil might be a good reason to want georgia to still be one of our allies, and having them in good terms with us gives us good position for troops in the middle east. Yes, our troops in the middle east for the benefit of oil.............wait were there now, how much is diesel again?

Russia invaded a country. Wouldn't you want help if say the state police invaded you in your house? This is the size difference between the 2 countries. Weither you thinkn it's right or not somebody out there needs help and the world is coming to realize that they need help and helping them. Comparing the state police and Russia is comparing apples to oranges. Im not sayin dont help, Im sayin help our own citizens first.

improve schools and police forces? That is done everyday, it doesnt help when you have twice as many idiots that dont care about the police force then you do people on the police force! There is no way in the world that we could have enough police forces or schools to cover our fast growing country! So instead we put our army where we need them so we can have our country period! No sense in having all the money here when afgan comes and takes over. So much for police forces and schools cause with them here we wont need it! That is why we spend the money to protect it. An i wasnt boasting on myself i was just saying that no matter what police forces or anyone does we are still going to have people out there causing havok. The decision is all on the person not anyone else. Were you serious about this? Yes improve schools and law enforcement. We live in a society that pays a school teacher 30000 a year and a football player 10 million.........a police officer 40000 a year and a baseball player 20 million.......no one needs to attack this country, we are doing a good enough job of destroying what we have on our own.

I know Mcoleman already said it, but I will reiterate; Iraq did not attack the US. Never has, and likely never will. Al Qaeda is the ones responsible, and they didn't enter Iraq until AFTER the US invasion.

What do you do when you find out your neighbor is beating their kids? Do you just sit back and say to yourself " I have my own problems I'm not going to help"? Or do you do something about it? It is the SAME THING. Sadam was "beating" his people.


I couldnt have said it better.

Very true.

Yes, our troops in the middle east for the benefit of oil.............wait were there now, how much is diesel again?


Comparing the state police and Russia is comparing apples to oranges. Im not sayin dont help, Im sayin help our own citizens first.


Were you serious about this? Yes improve schools and law enforcement. We live in a society that pays a school teacher 30000 a year and a football player 10 million.........a police officer 40000 a year and a baseball player 20 million.......no one needs to attack this country, we are doing a good enough job of destroying what we have on our own.

We have been in the middle east longer then 8 years. We will be in the middle east after combat troops leave Iraq.


It was a metaphor.


That is comparing apples and oranges. So I guess that would make that idea communism. Everybody gets the same?



We WERE NOT ATTACKED by Iraq in the first place. And never would have been. After all what would they have attacked us with? Their massive navy or their huge air force or maybe their supply of ballistic missles capable of travelling 100s of miles and striking deep in the US. No where in our constitution does it say we are the protectors of the universe. It actually says quite the opposite. But then again it's just a blankity blank piece of paper in the way of our current crop of demoncrats and republirats. If we attacked them because of how they were treating their people why havn't we attacked China? Why havn't we attacked Darfur? Why havn't we attacked any of the other countries where the same offenses occur on a regular basis. The first lie was the weapons of mass destruction when that failed to work they started the because he mistreats his people line. What's the next one?

Did we go into Iraq and kill everything in sight? Go talk to an Iraqi and ask them how there live is before Sadam and after.


I guess it would be ideal to bright every single last troop overseas and put them back into the states and then we could have a military ran country. Place curfews until all crime is gone.

i could care less about football and baseball. yea we do put TONS of money towards school and police force without being asked, its called taxes. Sports players dont get payed by that the people that support the team pay for it by going to there games paying hundreds of dollars for a seat and the same people that pay hundreds of dollars for all there fav. players jerseys and what not. So you say keep things contained at home, they have put police stations and schools everywhere, an yes they are under payed but they do it cause they want to no one forces a teacher to teach they choose to! But let another country like saudi or afgan take over and see how much of a choice they have then!

What do you do when you find out your neighbor is beating their kids? Do you just sit back and say to yourself " I have my own problems I'm not going to help"? Or do you do something about it? It is the SAME THING. Sadam was "beating" his people.




We have been in the middle east longer then 8 years. We will be in the middle east after combat troops leave Iraq.


It was a metaphor.


That is comparing apples and oranges. So I guess that would make that idea communism. Everybody gets the same?





Did we go into Iraq and kill everything in sight? Go talk to an Iraqi and ask them how there live is before Sadam and after.


I guess it would be ideal to bright every single last troop overseas and put them back into the states and then we could have a military ran country. Place curfews until all crime is gone.

my point exactly!!![guitar]

What do you do when you find out your neighbor is beating their kids? Do you just sit back and say to yourself " I have my own problems I'm not going to help"? Or do you do something about it? It is the SAME THING. Sadam was "beating" his people.

We have been in the middle east longer then 8 years.
Did we go into Iraq and kill everything in sight? Go talk to an Iraqi and ask them how there live is before Sadam and after.

Ive been to the middle east, have you? Saddam? He was put in power and supported by the United States by the current presidents father, George Herbert, in the 80's.
As far as the other stuff, I would assit my neighbors kids, but not to the point of neglecting my own which is what we are doing in this country, neglecting our own. I agree with you, we should help, but why cant we help our own first?

It's tempting to say let's stay home and keep our money here....But remember that there are two things we and all nations need, thats food and fuel. Take one away and your counrty is toast! So who do you trust to see to it there is a free flow of oil to the world markets ? Russia? China? I'm sure they wont take advantage of anyone would they? The EU found out last year Russia said do as we say or no LNG! Also dont forget that Nixon took us off the gold standard for a reason. We were about out of gold and couldnt print anymore money to feed a growing nation. He replaced it with the petrodollar. Thats why Hugo and Iran talk about not taking anymore dollars. They know that that will cause the Amarican dollar to collapse. So we are in a tuff spot. Stay home let Russa and China take over the world oil supplies and bankrupt the American dollar or put ourselves in harms way to insure oil can be supplied to US as well as the rest of the world. It's your choice as a voter. I just ask that you act as grown ups and think about the above when you choose. If you think fuel cost you now, just bring all our boy's home and we can fold up shop and all ride home on our bicycles!

Its funny, when Saddam gasses his own people, he was being supported by the US. No one seems to mention that though. It was with weapons supplied the US.
Saddam was supported by the U.S. up until he gassed his own people.
We supported him to help him defeat Iran in hopes that we would create an ally in the region. Instead he turned into a tyranical maniac.

No matter, it is an internal affair of a nation. Would you look at it as being OK if China or Russia invades the US in the name of protecting human rights,
Now that is funny!!
for unlawful detention of 'illegal' enemy combatants? When the executive branch won't even listen to the rulings of the Supreme Court, there is definite issues.
The supreme court did not say that the detention of enemy combatants was unlawful. Read below;
The Court decided that for the first time in American history, non-American enemy combatants detained abroad, in the course of an ongoing war, had a constitutional right to habeas corpus (a proceeding used to review the legality of a prisoner’s confinement in criminal cases).

What does sanctions have anything to do with the equation? That just means the UN (which Bush really has no respect for, John Bolton was a good example of that) is not trying to punish them, not neccisarily the nearest super power.
Nor should he!! The U.N. is nothing more than a bunch of corrupt morons who can't agree to swat a mosquito when bitten by one. The reason why they weren't willing to vote for going after Saddam was purely financial. The French, Germans and Koffi Anon was in the tank with Saddam taking under the table bribes on the scandalous oil for food program.
Sanctions were placed on Iraq for having WMD. To this day, there has yet to be any found, so the sanctions placed on that country for 12 years were a mistake.
Wrong again!!
After invading Kuwait in 1990, the U.N. began to sanction Iraq's egregious action. Since then, new sanctions have been placed on Iraq for its human rights violations and programs of mass destruction.
You may say that no WMDs have been found but that's not completely true.

We have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, chemical weapons," Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., said in a quickly called press conference late Wednesday afternoon.

Reading from a declassified portion of a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center, a Defense Department intelligence unit, Santorum said: "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist."
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The United States secretly shipped out of Iraq more than 500 tons of low-grade uranium dating back to the Saddam Hussein era, the Pentagon said Monday.
The U.S. military spent $70 million ensuring the safe transportation of 550 metric tons of the uranium from Iraq to Canada, said Pentagon spokesman Brian Whitman.

The shipment, which until recently was kept secret, involved a U.S. truck convoy, 37 cargo flights out of Baghdad to a transitional location, and then a transoceanic voyage on board a U.S.-government-owned ship designed to carry troops to a war zone, he said.

The "yellowcake" uranium transfer was requested by the Iraqi government at the encouragement of the U.S. government, Whitman said.
Then we have the reports of massive truck convoys traveling from Iraq to Syria just before we sent troops into Iraq. Also there is the testimony from an Iraqi general who testified that he was ordered by Saddam to remove the seats from several Iraqi Airline jets. According the the general these jets were loaded with chemical weapons and flown to Syria..
This report (http://www.2la.org/syria/iraq-wmd.php) also indicates that weapons were indeed shipped to Syria.
Those sanctions killed their economy, increased disease, decreased literacy, increased poverty, etc. All because 'they had WMDs'.
In actuality those loyal to Saddam and his Murderous regime continued to live quite well. Those not loyal lived in squaller at the hand of Saddam.
Now had Saddam chose to come clean and not jerk the inspectors around and had many from the U.N. not been in the tank for Saddam the sanctions could have been lifted much earlier thus sparing Iraq the hardship of the sanctions.

I know Mcoleman already said it, but I will reiterate; Iraq did not attack the US. Never has, and likely never will. Al Qaeda is the ones responsible, and they didn't enter Iraq until AFTER the US invasion.
Again wrong on a couple of points.

Iraq fired on our planes patrolling the no fly zone on a regular basis.
Saddam plotted to have George H W Bush assassinated.
Al Qaeda leader Al Zarqawi formed al-Tawhid wal-Jihad, which later became the group called Al-Qaeda in Iraq, in the 1990s, and led it until his death in June 2006. Zarqawi took responsibility, on several audio- and videotapes, for numerous acts of violence in Iraq including suicide bombings and hostage executions.

After the 2001 war in Afghanistan, Zarqawi appeared on a U.S. list of most-wanted al-Qaeda terrorists still at large in early 2002. It was reported he received the equivalent of US$5000 for his activities from Osama bin Laden.

According to the Washington Post and some other sources, he formally swore loyalty (Bay'ah) to bin Laden in October 2004 and was in turn appointed bin Laden's deputy. Zarqawi then changed the name of his Monotheism and Jihad network to "al-Qaeda in Iraq,"

Ive been to the middle east, have you? Saddam? He was put in power and supported by the United States by the current presidents father, George Herbert, in the 80's.
As far as the other stuff, I would assit my neighbors kids, but not to the point of neglecting my own which is what we are doing in this country, neglecting our own. I agree with you, we should help, but why cant we help our own first?

Well, I guess we went in and cleaned up a mistake. I think we agree on the fact that we need to pay attention to our own needs. But, in 30 years I don't want to have to live in fear that my rights today will be gone because Russia or terrorist made us scared to confront them. I can't even begin to imagine what this world would look like because Adolf Hitler and the other evil empires took over the world because we didn't want to get involved. These are hard times but I'm willing to stick out my chest and keep going forward.

I've spent over 600 days in the middle east and fight the global war on terrorism everyday I go to work operating MQ-1's.

but not to the point of neglecting my own which is what we are doing in this country, neglecting our own. I agree with you, we should help, but why cant we help our own first?
Help is available to those who need and ask for it. The problem is that we have many more here milking the system for what it's worth.

I've spent over 600 days in the middle east and fight the global war on terrorism everyday I go to work operating MQ-1's.
Thank you for that!!

[quote=capt.Ron Saddam was supported by the U.S. up until he gassed his own people. We supported him to help him defeat Iran in hopes that we would create an ally in the region. Instead he turned into a tyranical maniac.


He gassed his people after he was chased out of Kuwait. And he went into Kuwait after he was assured by US diplomats(Rumsfeld was one of them)that it was OK to do so. Saddam also gassed people in Iran, when he was supported by the US. The tar sticks to everyone that gets into the tar barrel.

He gassed his people after he was chased out of Kuwait.
He gassed his own people before and after he went into Kuwait

And he went into Kuwait after he was assured by US diplomats(Rumsfeld was one of them)that it was OK to do so.
Gotta call B/S on that one. As soon as I stop choking from laughter!!
Do you have any documentation to back up that story?

^^^ CBC news documentary.

[quote=capt.Ron;2184688]He gassed his own people before and after he went into Kuwait


So are you saying he did this while he was supported by the US.

^^^ CBC news documentary.
I don't believe that a far left wing organization like CBS would even claim something so ridiculous.
Please show me where CBS accuses or better yet has proof that Rumsfeld told Saddam that it was OK with the U.S. for them to Invade Kuwait.
So your premise is that we allowed them to do so only to attack them for doing it?
Hmm Maybe we did orchestrate the 9/11 attack!![duhhh]

[quote=capt.Ron;2184688]He gassed his own people before and after he went into Kuwait


So are you saying he did this while he was supported by the US.

I'm saying that he did this without our knowledge. Once we knew about it we no longer supported him.
That's as clear as I can put it.

I don't believe that a far left wing organization like CBS would even claim something so ridiculous.
Please show me where CBS accuses or better yet has proof that Rumsfeld told Saddam that it was OK with the U.S. for them to Invade Kuwait.
So your premise is that we allowed them to do so only to attack them for doing it?
Hmm Maybe we did orchestrate the 9/11 attack!![duhhh]

Please do a reread I wrote CBC

And yes to what you call my premise.

[quote=Clayten;2184705]

I'm saying that he did this without our knowledge. Once we knew about it we no longer supported him.
That's as clear as I can put it.
And what about the gassing of Iranian's

Please do a reread I wrote CBC
OOPS my bad. But...Same difference.
Ok now can you show me the article that makes that claim?
Also why in the world would we do such a thing? What did we have to gain in doing such a thing?
Raped and murdered Kuwaitis, and dead Iraqis?? If such a story were true we would have gained nothing from it.
Since the far left fringe wants everyone to believe that Republicans only do things for their own benefit, what was the benefit??
I still call B/S!!


And yes to what you call my premise.

So do you also believe that President Bush orchestrated the 9/11 attacks?
Or better yet do you believe that the buildings came down from a controlled explosion??

And what about the gassing of Iranian's
I believe the conventional wisdom was that we originally supplied Saddam with the gas. It was meant to be used to defend themselves from the Iranians. (They were at war you know) I don't know for sure if we knew ahead of time about the gassing of the Iranians but one would think we probably knew it was coming.

OOPS my bad. But...Same difference.
Ok now can you show me the article that makes that claim?
Also why in the world would we do such a thing? What did we have to gain in doing such a thing?
Raped and murdered Kuwaitis, and dead Iraqis?? If such a story were true we would have gained nothing from it.
Since the far left fringe wants everyone to believe that Republicans only do things for their own benefit, what was the benefit??
I still call B/S!!




So do you also believe that President Bush orchestrated the 9/11 attacks?
Or better yet do you believe that the buildings came down from a controlled explosion??

My bad for not being able to bring support to my claim.It was a TV documentary. I have nothing in print to support that. I will now lay down and bleed awhile on the political discussion battle field for that mistake.

I have said nothing to make one think I believe Bush orchestrated 9/11.
As for the buildings and a controlled explosion. It is an interesting concept when you see # seven go down. Or the whole in the Pentagon that was far smaller than the alleged size of aircraft, and no aircraft parts.

Some of you have watched the movie huh?

My bad for not being able to bring support to my claim.It was a TV documentary. I have nothing in print to support that. I will now die on the political discussion battle field for that mistake.
Well considering that you are the first person I've heard make this claim I would have to believe that the CBC produced another false claim against the American Govt. Had this been true it would have been plastered all over the news here in the states. Our media loves nothing more than to blame or accuse conservatives of illegal actions. The lies stick in the minds of the weak but to date I have yet to see of any real prosecutions for any so called atrocities.


As for the buildings and a controlled explosion. It is an interesting concept when you see # seven go down.
Well I kind of set you up with this one.
This report just came out today.


GAITHERSBURG, MD — Federal investigators said Thursday they have solved a mystery of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks: the collapse of World Trade Center building 7, a source of long-running conspiracy theories.

The 47-story trapezoid-shaped building sat north of the World Trade Center towers, across Vesey Street in lower Manhattan. On Sept. 11, it was set on fire by falling debris from the burning towers, but skeptics have long argued that fire and debris alone should not have brought down such a big steel-and-concrete structure.

Scientists with the National Institute of Standards and Technology say their three-year investigation of the collapse determined the demise of WTC 7 was actually the first time in the world a fire caused the total failure of a skyscraper.

"The reason for the collapse of World Trade Center 7 is no longer a mystery," said Dr. Shyam Sunder, the lead investigator on the NIST team.

Investigators also concluded that the collapse of the nearby towers broke the city water main, leaving the sprinkler system in the bottom half of the building without water.

The building has been the subject of a wide range of conspiracy theories for the last seven years, partly because the collapse occurred about seven hours after the twin towers came down. That fueled suspicion that someone intentionally blew up the building in a controlled demolition.

Critics like Mike Berger of the group 9/11 Truth said he wasn't buying the government's explanation.

"Their explanation simply isn't sufficient. We're being lied to," he said, arguing that there is other evidence suggesting explosives were used on the building.

Sunder said his team investigated the possibility that an explosion inside the building brought it down, but found there was no large boom or other noise that would have occurred with such a detonation. Investigators also created a giant computer model of the collapse, based partly on news footage from CBS News, that they say shows internal column failure brought down the building.

Investigators also ruled out the possibility that the collapse was caused by fires from a substantial amount of diesel fuel that was stored in the building, most of it for generators for the city's emergency operations command center.

The 77-page report concluded that the fatal blow to the building came when the 13th floor collapsed, weakening a critical steel support column that led to catastrophic failure.

"When this critical column buckled due to lack of floor supports, it was the first domino in the chain," said Sunder.

The NIST investigators issued more than a dozen building recommendations as a result of their inquiry, most of which repeat earlier recommendations from their investigation into the collapse of the two large towers.

In both instances, investigators concluded that extreme heat caused some steel beams to lose strength, causing further failures throughout the buildings until the entire structure succumbed.

The recommendations include building skyscrapers with stronger connections and framing systems to resist the effects of thermal expansion, and structural systems designed to prevent damage to one part of a building from spreading to other parts.

A spokeswoman for the leaseholder of the World Trade Center, developer Larry Silverstein, praised the government's work.

"Hopefully this thorough report puts to rest the various 9/11 conspiracy theories, which dishonor the men and women who lost their lives on that terrible day," said Silverstein spokeswoman Dara McQuillen.

In discussing the findings, the investigator Sunder acknowledged that some may still not be convinced, but insisted the science behind their findings is "incredibly conclusive."

"The public should really recognize the science is really behind what we have said," he said, adding: "The obvious stares you in the face."

Yea it came over the news on tv just after I posted.[laugh] But took a long time for this to come out. I would have to ask why? And that still does not answer the Pentagon question.

Oh and the CBC does not make false claims they save that for CBS[laugh]

Yea it came over the news on tv just after I posted.[laugh] But took a long time for this to come out. I would have to ask why? And that still does not answer the Pentagon question.

Well it's one of those things where they want to leave no doubt so they investigate it to death!!
Personally I would have just left it alone. We all know that the towers came down from the planes. No need in spending tons of money to prove it to the fruitcakes.
The security camera shot showing the plane just before it smacks the pentagon is clear proof. Also they found airplane parts in the rubble.
You may not remember it but some 20 yrs back AirTrans Airlines (Value Jet back then) crashed nose first into the Florida everglades. It took searchers hours to find the crash site. All they could see on the surface was a muddy spot. only after divers went down did they find traces of a plane.

Well it's one of those things where they want to leave no doubt so they investigate it to death!!
Personally I would have just left it alone. We all know that the towers came down from the planes. No need in spending tons of money to prove it to the fruitcakes.
The security camera shot showing the plane just before it smacks the pentagon is clear proof. Also they found airplane parts in the rubble.
You may not remember it but some 20 yrs back AirTrans Airlines (Value Jet back then) crashed nose first into the Florida everglades. It took searchers hours to find the crash site. All they could see on the surface was a muddy spot. only after divers went down did they find traces of a plane.

I was going to say something along the same line. I just can't see that some people would think that the United States Gov't would kill it's own people just to justify a war.

I was going to say something along the same line. I just can't see that some people would think that the United States Gov't would kill it's own people just to justify a war.

Is it true that the US gov broke the Japanese code back in WW2? Did they know the Japanese where going to attack Pearl Harbor? What was done to stop the attack? Was there other motives to let the attack of Pearl Harbor happen?

What ever happened to the topic that started this thread[laugh][laugh]

Is it true that the US gov broke the Japanese code back in WW2?
Yes they did...years after the attack at pearl Harbor.
Did they know the Japanese where going to attack Pearl Harbor? What was done to stop the attack? Was there other motives to let the attack of Pearl Harbor happen?
They did not know so therefore there was no motive.

Ok Capt. I have done enough bleeding on the political discussion battle field. Here is what I was talking about.click here (http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i4911reality.htm)

Yes they did...years after the attack at pearl Harbor.

They did not know so therefore there was no motive.

They delayed the Japanese diplomats from submitting a declaration of war on purpose, and only let the diplomats submit the declaration after Pearl Harbor was attacked. Coincidence?

Help is available to those who need and ask for it. The problem is that we have many more here milking the system for what it's worth. I agree on this point, we need to have a better system in place to govern how our money is spent here. How about urinalysis testing for all on welfare? But thats another thread.

Well, I guess we went in and cleaned up a mistake. I think we agree on the fact that we need to pay attention to our own needs. But, in 30 years I don't want to have to live in fear that my rights today will be gone because Russia or terrorist made us scared to confront them. I can't even begin to imagine what this world would look like because Adolf Hitler and the other evil empires took over the world because we didn't want to get involved. These are hard times but I'm willing to stick out my chest and keep going forward.

I've spent over 600 days in the middle east and fight the global war on terrorism everyday I go to work operating MQ-1's.If we had cleaned up a mistake then we wouldnt have troops there anymore. This country is not scared to fight terrorism, but use your head first, you run in with your chest stuck out because the government said this or said that, but I will not. We need to choose our battles, not run in on ALL of them. This country is not great because Iraq, Georgia, or anyone else stood up and helped, this country is great because we stood on our own and made it right.

What ever happened to the topic that started this thread[laugh][laugh] Funny how that happened.[laugh]

If we had cleaned up a mistake then we wouldnt have troops there anymore. This country is not scared to fight terrorism, but use your head first, you run in with your chest stuck out because the government said this or said that, but I will not. We need to choose our battles, not run in on ALL of them. This country is not great because Iraq, Georgia, or anyone else stood up and helped, this country is great because we stood on our own and made it right

Well I guess that is the difference between you and me sir. I believe in things greater then myself. So if you don't want to stand up for Iraq or Georgia then what? Only history will tell if we did the right thing for the better of man kind. But until then I'm going to keep my chest stuck out and dig in for the long haul.

I'm done with this back and forth. I'm not going to change anybody's opion and nobady has changed mine yet so this is going no where.
It kind of feels[duhhh]

Our Constitution says we are not to invade other countries. We signed a treaty in 1948 with the UN that we wouldn't attack any countries without their approval also. And although I despise the UN the US broke that treaty just like they broke our own countries laws written in the Constitution. Our top officials were originally to be held accountable for their actions by the people of this country. Somewhere over the past 50 years or so that has slipped away. Iraq didn't ask to be invaded the Un didn't ask for the US to invade Iraq. Did Georgia ask for this countries help? Will the American citizens see a payment from Georgia to help with their increase in future taxes from our so called help. Will we see help with the future tax increases to cover the the national debt? Why isn't Iraq paying us in crude oil to compensate for the millions upon millions of tax payer money being spent there everyday?

Ok Capt. I have done enough bleeding on the political discussion battle field. Here is what I was talking about.click here (http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i4911reality.htm)

This statement right here.
The Republicans are incapable of saying anything honest or actually caring about America – they will tell any lie at this point just to make Democrats sound bad and increase their hold on power.
Is enough for me to distrust anything from the Moderate Independent!
This is part of an ongoing campaign from the Bush Haters to make republicans out to be the "Bad Guys".

Fair enough Capt. but this is not the only party making this claim. As I said I had seen this from another source.

Fair enough Capt. but this is not the only party making this claim. As I said I had seen this from another source.

I have never heard this until you posted it.
If this was REAL news it would be all over the airwaves. The American media would love nothing more than to take down the Republican Party.

I have never heard this until you posted it.
If this was REAL news it would be all over the airwaves. The American media would love nothing more than to take down the Republican Party.

Here is the transcript of the complete discussion between Hussein and April Glaspie. http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/glaspie.html . This was reported by the New York Times Sept 3 1990

Here is the transcript of the complete discussion between Hussein and April Glaspie. http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/glaspie.html . This was reported by the New York Times Sept 3 1990
More info on that discussion.
In April 1991 Glaspie testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. She said that at the July 25 meeting she had "repeatedly warned Iraqi President Saddam Hussein against using force to settle his dispute with Kuwait." She also said that Saddam had lied to her by denying he would invade Kuwait. Asked to explain how Saddam could have interpreted her comments as implying U.S. approval for the invasion of Kuwait, she replied: "We foolishly did not realize he [Saddam] was stupid." In July 1991 State Department spokesperson Richard Boucher said at a press briefing:

We have faith in Ambassador Glaspie's reporting. She sent us cables on her meetings based on notes that were made after the meeting. She also provided five hours or more of testimony in front of the Committee about the series of meetings that she had, including this meeting with Saddam Hussein.

The cables that Glaspie sent from Iraq about her meeting with Saddam are no longer classified.[5] The cables suggest that she was largely carrying out a policy that was pushed by State at the time: Seeking to improve relations with Iraq. Glaspie's cable on her meeting with Saddam reports that President George H.W. Bush "had instructed her to broaden and deepen our relations with Iraq." Hussein, in turn, offered "warm greetings" to Bush and was "surely sincere" about not wanting war, the cable said. [6]

Glaspie herself for years remained silent on the subject of her actions in Iraq, allowing herself to be made a scapegoat for the supposed failure of the Bush administration to foresee or prevent the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. But in March 2008 she gave an interview to the Lebanese newspaper Dar al-Hayat.[7] In the interview, she said she has no regrets about what happened to her. "It is over," Glaspie said. "Nobody wants to take the blame. I am quite happy to take the blame. Perhaps I was not able to make Saddam Hussein believe that we would do what we said we would so, but in all honesty, I don't think anybody in the world could have persuaded him."

In the interview, Glaspie recalled that her meeting with Saddam was interrupted when the Iraqi president received a phone call from Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. Saddam told her he had assured Mubarak that he would try to settle the dispute, she said. Her cable backs up this version of events; the Iraqi transcript has Saddam saying that Mubarak called before he met with Glaspie.

Ah the smoke and mirrors of politics. As usual we the average joes will never know really what happened. OK so now what do we debate.[laugh]

OK so now what do we debate.[laugh]

MMMM How about is it pop, coke, or soda? [coffee][laugh]

MMMM How about is it pop, coke, or soda? [coffee][laugh]
that's funny!!
I have a friend from Ohio that calls it POP, my wife's family is from the east coast, they call it soda.
I call it Dr. Pepper cause there is nothing else!![coffee]
Of course we always referred to it as coke.

I would strongly infer that it is a soft drink, and I have documents to prove it.[laugh]

It's always been coke regardless of the flavor where I grew up at. [laugh]

that's funny!!
I have a friend from Ohio that calls it POP, my wife's family is from the east coast, they call it soda.
I call it Dr. Pepper cause there is nothing else!![coffee]
My wife is from the east coast also, some places there dont even have Dr. Pepper, not thats a government conspiracy.[laugh]

It's always been coke regardless of the flavor where I grew up at. [laugh]

Same here, we always ordered a coke and then were asked what kind.

My wife is from the east coast also, some places there dont even have Dr. Pepper, not thats a government conspiracy.[laugh]
Oh yea that's definitely a conspiracy!!
The wife and I took our first vacation to Colorado back in the early 80s. we went shopping for groceries and was freaked out when we couldn't find Dr. Pepper in the stores. I asked someone if they carried it and the answer was, "Dr What".
Needless to say we were carrying cases of DP in the car every time we went out of state after that.
[coffee][coffee][coffee][coffee]

Oh yea that's definitely a conspiracy!!
The wife and I took our first vacation to Colorado back in the early 80s. we went shopping for groceries and was freaked out when we couldn't find Dr. Pepper in the stores. I asked someone if they carried it and the answer was, "Dr What".Now theres a thread to start, last time I went to Colorado we went out to eat and I ordered a tea, they brought it to me hot, in a coffee cup. What the [nonono]? Good idea taking Dr.P along, I'll do the same next trip.

Now theres a thread to start, last time I went to Colorado we went out to eat and I ordered a tea, they brought it to me hot, in a coffee cup. What the [nonono]? Good idea taking Dr.P along, I'll do the same next trip.

They actually sell it up there now but if you're driving and have the room I'm sure it's cheaper getting in locally from Walmart.
Another thing about DP, If you're in the Dublin, TX area you'll want to buy em there. It's more expensive but it's the original recipe made with pure cane sugar instead of Corn syrup. The last time I bought some I drank about 5 in a row...nearly made myself sick!![redface]

I have never heard this until you posted it.
If this was REAL news it would be all over the airwaves. The American media would love nothing more than to take down the Republican Party.


Sadly, this was real news and never taken seriously.

Bush was so busy gearing up for war and blaming Saddam for 911 that April Gillespies comments never got the traction they should have.

For someone as well informed as you, capt., I'm surprized you don't know this. Sometimes blaming the "liberal" media is a good way to put your head in the sand and ignore real issues. It's not the media that wants to take down the Rebublican Party. They won't even get near the touchy issues because someone starts screaming "liberal media" anytime they don't like the news. Meanwhile, the Rebublicans believe everything the president says like a religion.

Either way, the PNAC document is even more damning about Iraq. As I stated earlier, the war was planned in 1998 and 1999 and the project document was signed by Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Wolfowitz, Pearl, Libbey etc. All the big names. The neo cons wanted to go into Iraq and stated all they needed was a big event to sell it to the public. They got it on 911 and Bush began to promote the war. Anyone can look it up under the Project for a New American Century or PNAC document.

It amazes me that people still blame Saddam for 911. Even Bush finally had to admit there was no connection after all his propaganda, but so many others still cite Saddam as part of the reason for Iraq. There never was a connection.

I know you pro Iraq guys mean well but please explain how the loss of this much life and treasure is justified over Iraq. And use something logical, not just that he was a bad guy or something. Now we're streched so thin we can't do a good job in Afghanistan and what if a real problem comes up?

I have never heard this until you posted it.
If this was REAL news it would be all over the airwaves. The American media would love nothing more than to take down the Republican Party.

what puzzles me, is this 'moderate independent' story contains this:



"The Republicans are incapable of saying anything honest or actually caring about America – they will tell any lie at this point just to make Democrats sound bad and increase their hold on power."



now if you're not for the right or left, how could you come up with a statement that says all Republicans are liars and don't care about America?
that sounds like old fashioned partisan politics to me, and not remotely moderate nor independent, no different than if they ran a story about how Bill Clinton's lack of respsonse in the first WTC attack in '93, bombing of the U.S. Embassies, and attack on the USS Cole, allowed 9/11 to happen, then ended the story by saying that the Democrats don't care about protecting the country, and will do anything to turn it into a pseudo-European socialist state.
the first part of the statement would be fact, followed by partisan bashing, which is supposed to be the stuff that moderate independents avoid.

BTW, you should do a search of Samuel A. Stanson (author of the article), and you'll find endless far left crap (all aiming mostly rediculous accusations against Bush and the Republicans) that Michael Moore himself wouldn't touch.


http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i2elections2004gop.htm

I know you pro Iraq guys mean well but please explain how the loss of this much life and treasure is justified over Iraq. And use something logical, not just that he was a bad guy or something. Now we're streched so thin we can't do a good job in Afghanistan and what if a real problem comes up? This is my point exactly, Iraq is not worth the life spent. How is our military expected to secure the borders of Georgia or Iraq, if we cant even secure our own?

Another thing about DP, If you're in the Dublin, TX area you'll want to buy em there. Everytime we go through we get some, Dublin Dr Pepper, your right it is good.

good to see there is more dr p lovers out there. Everyone thinks i am a freak when it comes to dr. pepper, i think if i was dying all they have to do is direct inject dr pepper and it would revive me.

And while in DC yesterday they actually had protesters outside the russian embassy, only like 15-20 but out there with signs and bull horns

Bush was so busy gearing up for war and blaming Saddam for 911 that April Gillespies comments never got the traction they should have.
HaHa I challenge you to find a quote where president Bush blamed Saddam for 9/11.


It amazes me that people still blame Saddam for 911.
Again I've heard nothing that Blames Saddam for 9/11. You're playing the liberal switch. The facts don't support your bashing the Iraq war so you bring up the liberal B/S talking points to divert the issue.
but so many others still cite Saddam as part of the reason for Iraq. There never was a connection.
Saddam is the reason for us going into Iraq. It darn sure wasn't Stalin!!

I know you pro Iraq guys mean well but please explain how the loss of this much life and treasure is justified over Iraq. And use something logical, not just that he was a bad guy or something. Now we're streched so thin we can't do a good job in Afghanistan and what if a real problem comes up?
Well lets see.

Saddam did murder hundreds of thousands of his people.
Saddam did go against 17 different U.N. resolutions.
Saddam did harbor terrorists. (No I'm not claiming he had a hand in 9/11.
Saddam did send checks to the families of Palistinian suicide bombers in Israel.
Saddam did refuse access to the weapons inspectors.
Saddam (his military) did fire on our planes while patrolling the "No Fly" zone.
Saddam did try to have President G.H. Bush assassinated. (That alone is enough)

Theres more but you should be able to understand these basic FACTS.

Well no matter what side of the pendulum is in power, they all always blame the media for being against them.

I also understand the FACT that Bush cited Iraq's terrorist connection over and over with his reasoning about going to war. It's not a matter of specific quotes, of which there are many, it's a matter of fact that he tied saddam to the terrorists in speech after speech. Everyone that heard the talk during the runup to war heard the supposed connection. It's just that many of us didn't believe it. And we were right.

It's so annoying when facts get in the way of a good story. Some people just can't admit that all that death, destruction and loss of American stature may not have been necessary. That's why there has to be open debate and less secrecy in the White House. Why we must get a president that does not have a personal and destructive agenda. It may be uncomfortable to hear the other side of the story, but it's worse to only have one fabricated story and be a bunch of sheep marching toward the edge.


Quote, G. Bush:

"Iraq continues to flaunt its hostility toward America and to support terror.

States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world. By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger. They could provide these arms to terrorists, giving them the means to match their hatred. They could attack our allies or attempt to blackmail the United States. In any of these cases, the price of indifference would be catastrophic."


This is just one example from the State of the Union Speech. There are many, many more, as I know you know.

The neo cons had their minds made up from 1998. All they needed was an opportunity they could use as an excuse, and they said so. 911 gave them the story they needed to go into Iraq. It's all a matter of history you can read for yourself. And if you think it's the "liberal Media", read the PNAC document and read who signed it. All conservatives. All hawks. Read it.

Meanwhile, my lonely voice of reason will continue to stand up for America. I, for one, am sorry for the loss of our troops and our treasure. A loss that has gained us nothing in Iraq. I don't want to be lied to by an elected representative. How many more of these misadventures can we afford?

Bin Laden and the Taliban were the real problem but Bush was not really interested in that.

One thing is for sure, McCain will be the next Pres. And during his eight years he will have an oportunity to set the stage for the next hundred years of occupation. It's especially annoying to hear him and others say that Obama "wants" to fail in Iraq. To "cut and run". McCain and Bush say there will be no "time table" for withdrawal. But this past week we hear that Bush is negotiating with Malakai for a timetable on troop withdrawall by 2011 at the latest. Meanwhile Iraqi oil deals are being made with other countries and none of the oil profits are going to the war effort. Must be more of that "liberl media" bias of which you speak. [laugh]

actually the most comprehensive study on this is the bi partisan 9/11 Commission Report, and according to the report Al Qaeda met with top Iraqi intelligence on at least 8 occasions prior to 9/11/01.
what is known is that Iraq provided safe haven for known Al Qaeda terrorists and allowed them to train on their soil. the only thing not shown, was a direct link to Iraq in the 9/11 attacks. if you feel that any of this info is not accurate, you're welcome to look at the commission's report yourself.

Well, maybe, but:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16.html

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2004/04/b44775.html

This speaks to capt.s request for info on Bush's terrorist connection to Saddam and to the 911 commission finding "links" to Iraq and Bin Laden.

I don't expect to change any minds but how can anyone say the Iraq war is/was worth it? Ok, Saddam was a bad guy, fine. So if that is the criteria then I guess we should be off and running in N. Korea, Iran, Russia, etc, etc. If not, why not? Please tell me (as if I don't know the answer). Oh wait, maybe we should finish up in Afghanistan. No, why should we? Bush has stated that he doesn't care where Bin Laden is and doesn't think about it much.

So, if you guys are so willing to believe Bush and follow him anywhere, why don't you give up on Bin Laden too? He attacked us and Bush doesn't care where he is. Saddam never did anything to us and it's all gung ho to squash Iraq. Just curious.

I find it difficult to imagine how anyone can be a loyal Republican or Democrat at this point. Both pander to the lowest common denominator, use fear to get their way and sit twiddling their thumbs as America crumbles.

This speaks to capt.s request for info on Bush's terrorist connection to Saddam and to the 911 commission finding "links" to Iraq and Bin Laden.
So you don't have the quote...I knew you wouldn't!!

I don't expect to change any minds but how can anyone say the Iraq war is/was worth it?
There were lots of people with your same attitude when it came to battling Hitler. Can you imagine what life would be like had we not shut him down? BTW - there were lots more killed during that war!!
Ok, Saddam was a bad guy, fine. So if that is the criteria then I guess we should be off and running in N. Korea, Iran, Russia, etc, etc. If not, why not? Please tell me (as if I don't know the answer).
well if you have the answer tell us!!
Bush has stated that he doesn't care where Bin Laden is and doesn't think about it much
Twist away.
He actually said that he wasn't concerned with Bin Laden. The reason being is that Bin Laden is pretty much neutralized. His abilities to do anything are greatly hindered. That was the point of his statement. Now he should never have said that because he should have know that the liberal hacks would capitalize and twist it just as you are.
Saddam never did anything to us and it's all gung ho to squash Iraq. Just curious.
So Firing on our planes while patrolling the no fly zone is nothing?
How about an attempt on a former president's life? Is that nothing too?

You can't turn and look away when one country begins to become aggressive. Look what happened when they turned and looked away when Hitler was doing what he was.

capt.

What's the point in producing anything factual? It always gets the party line spin because the answer is made up before the question. You sound like the perfect water boy for Bush.

Are you really suggesting that Saddam equals Hitler? If so you just made my point perfectly. Thankyou. And as I said, I don't expect to change any minds. To some, Bush is absolute perfection, like a religious leader, a messiah. I just ask the annoying questions in hope of getting a reasonable response. But there is none.

By the way, we are not going to all those other and more dangerous trouble spots because we don't have the resources. It was more convenient to pick on a country that had almost no military. Can we fix the whole world on credit and with nukes? No we can't. Should we try? No. It finally comes down to the question of what is winning and how do you do it? By knocking over a cheap dictator with little power and thrusting your chest out on an aircraft carrier while declaring victory? Well, that's the Bush method. He wouldn't dare attack Russia.


So, it's off to the next subject in some other thread for me. Something related to a Dodge. [laugh] At least with a Cummins, if it stops running no one can say it's just fine, that there is no problem. I'd rather live in the real world!

Dream on. [laugh][laugh]

There were lots of people with your same attitude when it came to battling Hitler. Can you imagine what life would be like had we not shut him down? BTW - there were lots more killed during that war!!

The US did not want to enter the second world war. Roosevelt knew the people where not interested,because they still had the taste of the first world war in their palates.
England was down on her knees begging for the US to enter. Roosevelt appeased England by letting Japan attack Pearl Harbor. Giving the populace of the US the need for revenge, as Japan was allied with Germany.

Does Saddam equal Hitler??????? HMMMM lets see. Let me look through my history book.....Well gassing an entire population because of there religon or race, ummmmm invading another country and stealing what ever he wants, murdering people who don't see things his way. I think I do see some similarities but I could be just overreacting again. I guess we should just sit on our hands, not pay any attention to what other leaders are doing, until somthing happens to our country!!!.

I can pretty much guarantee it wont be bombing attack on Pearl Harbor next time. It will be more like a neuclear missle in on of our major cities. But that whould be just silly to think that!!!

Ya the scary part is that it does not have to be a missile. It could be a suit case. And it could come from say, Africa. Some nasty things going on there and no one cares.

capt.
What's the point in producing anything factual?
Funny I was thinking the same thing!! I've given you facts and you've listed the liberal party line acusations and enuendos. I requested a quote from President Bush that would support your accusations yet you couldn't??
Are you really suggesting that Saddam equals Hitler?
No not at all. What I am stating is that folks just like you wanted to leave Hitler alone during WWII. history shows that had we done with Hitler as you propose with Saddam the world we live in could have turned out entirely different!! Now since we've taken Saddam out there's no way in knowing how bad he could have been had we lifted the sanctions and allowed him to reconstitute his WMD and Nuclear ambitions. He was a mad man just as Hitler was. Surely you don't think he was a sane and rational individual. If the answer is yes then you've explained much about yourself!!

To some, Bush is absolute perfection, like a religious leader, a messiah.
Not me! President Bush is far from perfect but in comparison to ANY of the DIMs offered up since 1960 he seems near perfection!!

Ya the scary part is that it does not have to be a missile. It could be a suit case. And it could come from say, Africa. Some nasty things going on there and no one cares.
You can bet your bottom dollar that there are many eyes on multiple countries in Africa. Folks do care they just aren't making a lot of hay about it right now.

No not at all. What I am stating is that folks just like you wanted to leave Hitler alone during WWII. history shows that had we done with Hitler as you propose with Saddam the world we live in could have turned out entirely different!! Now since we've taken Saddam out there's no way in knowing how bad he could have been had we lifted the sanctions and allowed him to reconstitute his WMD and Nuclear ambitions. He was a mad man just as Hitler was. Surely you don't think he was a sane and rational individual. If the answer is yes then you've explained much about yourself!!

The people of Germany did see Hitler as a mad man. They actually seen him as a savior from the Versailles treaty of world war one.

Does Saddam equal Hitler??????? HMMMM lets see. Let me look through my history book.....Well gassing an entire population because of there religon or race, ummmmm invading another country and stealing what ever he wants, murdering people who don't see things his way. I think I do see some similarities but I could be just overreacting again. I guess we should just sit on our hands, not pay any attention to what other leaders are doing, until somthing happens to our country!!!.

I can pretty much guarantee it wont be bombing attack on Pearl Harbor next time. It will be more like a neuclear missle in on of our major cities. But that whould be just silly to think that!!!

Well let me see. Germany had a tremendous industrial base. It was rolling across Europe swallowing countries. Huge rallies with thousands practically worshipping Hitler. England was on the brink. Iraq was never, and is not, Germany.

Just what steps are we taking to prevent a nuclear attack on us? Occupying Iraq? Oh that sounds helpful. Al quaida in Iraq was not in Iraq till we took over.

Where were all those factories in Iraq? Where are all those nukes that are pointed at us? In Iraq? No they are in Russia. Reagan said the Soviet Empire was an Evil Empire, but he realized he had to talk to them. Bush can't bring himself to talk to his enemies, but he'll visit China and talk to Russia. Oh wait, Russia has nukes pointed at us. And "communist" China has invested so much here that they have to be our friends even though they have a communist government that Bush hates. Hmm, maybe things are not as black and white as they seem.

I guess you are saying that attacking Iraq will prevent a nuclear blast here. How? We need to deal with real problems like Bin Laden and al quaida. Iran. And our own financial crisis that weakens us internationally.[guitar]

Sorry, I was just leaving and got distracted. [laugh]

The people of Germany did see Hitler as a mad man. They actually seen him as a savior from the Versailles treaty of world war one.
So they saw him as a mad man and at the same time they saw him as a savior.
Which of these statements do you agree with??

So they saw him as a mad man and at the same time they saw him as a savior.
Which of these statements do you agree with??
Oh my bad typo, they did not see him as a mad man

Oh my bad typo, they did not see him as a mad man

Ok I kinda thought that's what you meant. I figured a little nudge would get a correction. [laugh]
But as a point I'm pretty sure most of the German people saw him as a madman by the end of the war.

Ok I kinda thought that's what you meant. I figured a little nudge would get a correction. [laugh]
But as a point I'm pretty sure most of the German people saw him as a madman by the end of the war.
That is what I am getting at.Who is a mad man by who's terms. And who follows.
I am certain that you can go to other parts of the world and some will say G. Bush Jr. is a mad man.
Thanks for the correction push[redface]

That is what I am getting at.Who is a mad man by who's terms. And who follows.
I am certain that you can go to other parts of the world and some will say G. Bush Jr. is a mad man.

Maybe so but it would be very unfounded.
President Bush isn't going after other countries for the purpose of taking lands or commodities.
What is sad is that we (and the rest of the world) allowed the Soviets to do just that as WWII was ending.
Also President Bush hasn't killed hundreds of thousands of innocent in our own country or even in another country for that matter.

Maybe so but it would be very unfounded.
President Bush isn't going after other countries for the purpose of taking lands or commodities.
What is sad is that we (and the rest of the world) allowed the Soviets to do just that as WWII was ending.
Also President Bush hasn't killed hundreds of thousands of innocent in our own country or even in another country for that matter.

Iraq has a commodity that is sought after.
The soviets took control of land after the second world war to create a buffer zone from another attack. They lost over 30 million people in WW2. They did not want that again.
It is very much debatable if President Bush is responsible for killing innocent people, from his country and others. Some say he has. But even if he is responsible for only one then he would be considered in the same class as others that have done so. As it is not a question of volume, but of the act.

The world needs to punish Russia for what they did. That would make them think twice before they do something like this again. Freeze all their assets in other countries and stop buying their gas and oil. That would be the only way other then all out war, which the United States doesn't want with a super power with atomic weapons. Much like the movie War Games there is no winner in all out nuclear war. This would be the end of the world as we know it. We came very close to war when nuclear war heads from Russia were going to Cuba to be put on missiles aimed at the U.S. Russia blinked first then, that is the only reason we are all still a live. The next President of this country will face challenges like this when he takes office in November. We must all hope we vote in the right man for this job. The future of this country may depend on it.

The world needs to punish Russia for what they did. That would make them think twice before they do something like this again. Freeze all their assets in other countries and stop buying their gas and oil. That would be the only way other then all out war, which the United States doesn't want with a super power with atomic weapons. Much like the movie War Games there is no winner in all out nuclear war. This would be the end of the world as we know it. We came very close to war when nuclear war heads from Russia were going to Cuba to be put on missiles aimed at the U.S. Russia blinked first then, that is the only reason we are all still a live. The next President of this country will face challenges like this when he takes office in November. We must all hope we vote in the right man for this job. The future of this country may depend on it.

Should the US be punished for going into Panama?

Iraq has a commodity that is sought after.
Yes and we've taken none of it.
The soviets took control of land after the second world war to create a buffer zone from another attack.
Taking over countries by force and controlling them with the iron fist of Communism isn't exactly creating a buffer zone.
Had the U.S. not met them in Berlin they would have taken more. I believe it was Patton who said that we should have kept driving all the way to Moscow.
Not to take lands but to guarantee the sovereignty of all of those little countries that Russia stole.

It is very much debatable if President Bush is responsible for killing innocent people, from his country and others. Some say he has. But even if he is responsible for only one then he would be considered in the same class as others that have done so. As it is not a question of volume, but of the act.
Well I have yet to see where someone can point out ANY evidence that would suggest the intentional genocide that some would like to pin on him.
Some civilians are always going to die in a war. But the United States goes farther than anyone to make sure it doesn't happen or is at least at it's minimum.

I'm guessing that the venerable concept of "Tread lightly and carry a big stick" would be considered over-simplistic and obsolete in this day and age, hunh??

How is our military expected to secure the borders of Georgia or Iraq, if we cant even secure our own?


I might suggest if we used our Military to secure the borders, it might work better than the people securing it now, Congress. [duhhh]

Another question, somewhere I know I saw definitive data on AlZarquari being in Iraq prior to our going in.

Can someone point me to it?

Another question, somewhere I know I saw definitive data on AlZarquari being in Iraq prior to our going in.

Can someone point me to it?

although both sides claim that they're correct, this seems to be the last word on what you're referring to:




Far from aligning himself with al-Qaeda and Jordanian terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Hussein repeatedly rebuffed al-Qaeda's overtures and tried to capture Zarqawi, the report said. Tariq Aziz, the detained former deputy prime minister, has told the FBI that Hussein "only expressed negative sentiments about [Osama] bin Laden."



that doesn't mean he wasn't in Iraq, or that al-Qaeda wasn't training in some of the more remote areas, but does seem to address the Hussein/al-Zarqawi connection.

Who trained Bin Laden? And then who did Bin Laden train?

Another question, somewhere I know I saw definitive data on AlZarquari being in Iraq prior to our going in.

Can someone point me to it?
This is from "The emergency Response Institute" (http://www.emergency.com/2004/abu_Musab_Zarqawi.htm)
When Zarqawi was 20, he went to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets, according to The Wall Street Journal. He was jailed after returning to Jordan in a round-up of Afghanistan veterans whom authorities feared would spark unrest.

Following his release in 1999, he returned to Afghanistan to meet with Qaeda leaders and began recruiting his own followers, the Journal reported. He was reportedly wounded in Afghanistan during the 2001 U.S.-led war and fled to Baghdad, where his injured leg was amputated. He then worked out of Iran and northern Iraq, where he allied with Ansar al-Islam, officials say.

That is what I am getting at.Who is a mad man by who's terms. By my terms Hitler and Hussien were both mad men, the only difference was Hussien was our mad man until it got out of hand.

I might suggest if we used our Military to secure the borders, it might work better than the people securing it now, Congress. I agree, maybe by using the military to secure our borders then they would actually be secured. Instead of thousands of illegals pouring in, which pulls down our economy. To some it makes more sense to have those soldiers and Humvees in Georgia. Now that makes no sense [dummy]

To some it makes more sense to have those soldiers and Humvees in Georgia. Now that makes no sense [dummy]

maybe the military would get involved if Mexican illegals cost the oil companies some money. seems one of the main reasons the U.S. (and Russia) are so interested in Georgia is the major oil and gas pipeline system that BP controls there, and that was shut down during their scuffle with Russia, and that they would lose control of if Russia were to re-take the area. the temporary shut down alone cost BP millions.

maybe the military would get involved if Mexican illegals cost the oil companies some money. I agree, but how can we get all those Mexican illegals into Georgia[laugh]

I agree, but how can we get all those Mexican illegals into Georgia[laugh]

a veeeeeerrrrrrrryyyyyyy looooooonnnnnnnnggggggg pipeline! [laugh]

This just in...
All of the Wal-Marts across Alabama sold out of ammunition as of yesterday.

A reliable source said that one of the purchasers commented that while
Russia may have invaded Georgia, they sure as heck ain't doin' it
to Alabama.

This just in...
All of the Wal-Marts across Alabama sold out of ammunition as of yesterday.

A reliable source said that one of the purchasers commented that while
Russia may have invaded Georgia, they sure as heck ain't doin' it
to Alabama.
[laugh] Good one.....

This just in...
All of the Wal-Marts across Alabama sold out of ammunition as of yesterday.

A reliable source said that one of the purchasers commented that while
Russia may have invaded Georgia, they sure as heck ain't doin' it
to Alabama. Funny one ram [laugh][laugh]