www.perotcharts.com

I posted this link in a couple of other different threads without much comment from other posters. I am reposting it here as I feel it warrants more discussion and perhaps it's own thread to not hijack another one.

The USA currently has 9.6 Trillion dollars in outstanding debt. That number is so large that it is not comprehendible to most of us, including myself.

1. Do you think we will ever be able to pay that back?

2. If it were possible to do so, do you think there is enough political willpower to actually do it?

3. At what point do you think our country is actually "bankrupt" and what will be the consequences of that?

4. What kind of intergenerational warfare is this going to create among segments of our society?

4. Is there anything we can do as individuals to protect ourselves from the certain economic "Trainwreck" that is looming in the not to distant future?


Please share your thoughts! I don't think we will be hearing much about it from the presidential candidates or other lip service polititicians.

..

I looked at the charts.

We will never pay the debt unless there is a major mindshift. It's all about spend, spend, spend right now with no apparant concern from the public or the polticians. Bush tries to artifcially make the debt look smaller and Cheney says debt is not a problem. Haliburton gets no bid contracts and the investers get rich on the war. Something like $4,000 per second is being spent in Iraq. For what? So we can say we didn't lose? For oil deals that are now being made with other countries instead of us? Meanwhile, the real hornets nest in Afganistan, that we should not have compromised on, is gaining strength.

Capitalism is a very good thng, but it also has a dark side when profit rules over any morality, or should I say profit is morality. This shows up in health care only for profit, and profit to insurance companies while 46 million of our friends and neighbors can not afford coverage.

War by proxy, where mercenaries, or "contractors" do the dirty work we don't want to see and are paid by borrowed and hidden debt. Our troops are sent off on a five year (and counting) war in a country that did nothing to us. Iraq. With thousands of our people killed and wounded and not enough support. It's not a big issue for many Americans because they didn't have to send their own kids and it's not on the TV every night. Our presdent scared us into going with comments like "there could be a mushroom cloud over New York in 45 minutes". And photos of "claimed" mobile weapons labs. while lying about connections with Al Quaida.

We are, technically, bankrupt now on paper. But we have a tremendous GNP, resiliance and creativity. So we will probably be fine. That is as long as other countries like China keep investing in our bonds. I just think it's funny that we publicly bash them and yet rely on their investing and good will.

The printing presses are running so we can send cash to the banks as they teeter on the edge. Overnight deals on the weekend are made to save Bear Sterns and others from collapse. The problem is being managed as best they can right now, and if confidence returns and the economy stabalizes, which it will, we can begin to even things out.

It seems the game is to rape this country for all it's worth and then get bailed out when things go sour. Sad.

But the US is such a magical place and truly a beacon on the hill, so I think we still have a good future ahead of us, but with some belt tightening. The big variable is the leaders we choose. Do we repond to fear, the boogeyman in the closet, and slogans about losing. Do we elect those that lie and deceive us or hide the truth? Or do we step up to a new era of reality based ideas and policies. More honesty and coming clean with the situation we are in? And, dare I say it, pay for things as we go instead of just raising the debt ceiling?

We, as a people are not ready, yet, for the truth, or to face the debt we have. Not yet. It's marvelous that we can cruise along and not have to care about the rest of the world, the debt, the wars, etc, but until we do we are not in control. Vote for an honest future! Or face a possible monetary collapse and chaos.

We have to make this whole thing work, and make it work together, or we fail.

"4. Is there anything we can do as individuals to protect ourselves from the certain economic "Trainwreck" that is looming in the not to distant future?"

Yep, don't owe anybody anything, have plenty of Ammo, a truck that will run on anything, and have plenty of hard value trading material that does not take up too much room. It would also be good to know what is edible, and have a fair amount of basic first aid training.

Oh, and you had better be flexible in your living location.......

Raspy, those 46 Million "uninsured" you speak of include young who are uninsured by choice, choosing to run the risk that they will not need insurance Vs. the cost of Insurance, and also the largest segment, those that are using free care because we as a country cannot refuse acute care to anyone, legal or not.

I do find it interesting that no one pegs the cost to our health care system due to the frivolous lawsuits where millions are literally dispensed, yet no one acknowledges this "right" will cease under a Government takeover of the system. Should not there be a standard worth of a life? It seems to work for OSHA should I be killed at my place of employment......

As for us working together? Not a chance in hades brother, at least not until the inevitable collapse, and for that, all you need to do is go and re-read the first part of this post.

Looks like there is a movie coming out! I.O.U.S.A Very timely, IMO. I just found out about it yesterday.


Here are a couple of links.....with probably several more on YouTube for those that want to see them.

HBo2xQIWHiM


XoHh2CslpGo&feature=related

"4. Is there anything we can do as individuals to protect ourselves from the certain economic "Trainwreck" that is looming in the not to distant future?"

Yep, don't owe anybody anything, have plenty of Ammo, a truck that will run on anything, and have plenty of hard value trading material that does not take up too much room. It would also be good to know what is edible, and have a fair amount of basic first aid training.

Oh, and you had better be flexible in your living location.......

Raspy, those 46 Million "uninsured" you speak of include young who are uninsured by choice, choosing to run the risk that they will not need insurance Vs. the cost of Insurance, and also the largest segment, those that are using free care because we as a country cannot refuse acute care to anyone, legal or not.

I do find it interesting that no one pegs the cost to our health care system due to the frivolous lawsuits where millions are literally dispensed, yet no one acknowledges this "right" will cease under a Government takeover of the system. Should not there be a standard worth of a life? It seems to work for OSHA should I be killed at my place of employment......

As for us working together? Not a chance in hades brother, at least not until the inevitable collapse, and for that, all you need to do is go and re-read the first part of this post.



Pat....Very good post. I basically agree with you on almost every point.

"4. Is there anything we can do as individuals to protect ourselves from the certain economic "Trainwreck" that is looming in the not to distant future?"

Yep, don't owe anybody anything...

I think you hit the nail on the head. Taxes will either drastically rise, and/or entitlement spending will drastically decrease. Either way, those of us earning a paycheck will be required to spend more of our money on taxes, and/or supporting family members (parents/grandparents). This leaves us with less disposable income for us to spend on other things. Of course when the piper comes to get paid, those things which you do not own outright will be taken first, along with any collateral needed to satisfy the debt. I have a feeling that as economic conditions worsen, creditors will also be forced to accelerate their debt collection in order to save themselves.

This is priority #1 for me. I am agressively paying my debts to try and avoid this situation.

patdaly,

I'm afraid I agree with you on working together. Not a chance. If times get tougher there will be more division, not less. Unless it's a common enemy. Sad isn't it?

I call it the Easter Island syndrome. As the society collapsed more and more energy was spent on worthless idols, all the wood was used up that might have allowed them to build boats and escape, and they finally died off almost completely while living in caves. That's far into the future for this society.

All it will take is a nuclear war, more idol worship instead of individual responsibility. As many believe and are looking forward to, Armageddon, touched off by someone with their finger on the button. Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail and those problems are a long way off.

as long as china doesn't call the loans and reposses the USA, we sure as hell can't fight them, they have positioned themselves in a position of us being dependent upon them for everything from food & pharmicuticals to having our hi-teck and implimenting it. if you want to see a 3rd world country go to the pacific rim and then come back to San Francisco, i can assure you it isn't them.

as long as china doesn't call the loans and reposses the USA, we sure as hell can't fight them, they have positioned themselves in a position of us being dependent upon them for everything from food & pharmicuticals to having our hi-teck and implimenting it. if you want to see a 3rd world country go to the pacific rim and then come back to San Francisco, i can assure you it isn't them.


You are so right except that we did it to ourselves and are doing it to ourselves.

I've been to China 5 times and am amazed at what I've seen. It is developing so fast that there are not enough construction cranes in the world to keep up! Looking out the Hotel window one morning there were over 30 of them visible from that one point. All the new architecture is way more modern and creative than here. More fun and whimsical, exciting. The people are happy, positive about their future, friendly and gracious. A fantastic mix of ancient and modern.

You hear about the communist government and how oppressive it is, slave labor, no freedoms. What a joke. That's mostly for American consumption. Told by Americans to Americans. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to live there, this is my home, but they are doing just fine and have a wonderful country too. Every morning there was a USA Today dropped at my door and we watched CNN and the BBC on TV. People everywhere spoke to me to practice their English. Buicks and VWs are everywhere.

We walked, rode busses, trains, boats, flew on planes, rode in taxis, visited many places and restaurants, visited people in their homes. Never a problem. Always treated very well by everyone. This was not some organized tour, we went wherever we wanted, city to city, place to place, parks, a military base, museums, old cities, the wall, factories, you name it. We dealt with travel agents to get good airline deals, bought black market train tickets, tried many bus lines to various places, took a new yacht on sea trials, ate with construction crews at a factory, and on and on.

Here are some key differences between the US and China that tell the story well; The government is more authoritarian and, at the lower levels, more corrupt. But the national government is very interested in governing well and in the interest of the people. Serving to better everyone and make China work well. There are 56 minorities in China. They are not seen as second class citizens on the take or trying to overrun the country or just hated and mistrusted as here. They are part of the fabric and honored. You want to talk about a melting pot? China has us beat. Everyone is positive about the future there. They have a longer history than anyone and used to be the center of the civilized world. Even they don't know the details of so much of their past because it is so long and because so much was wiped out during the cultural revolution. Etc, etc.

Now come back here. We're fighting with each other over every detail you can imagine, from wages to tree cutting to new building projects to religion, abortion, who can marry each other and which presidential candidate will give the most to you or lower the cost of oil or bring victory in an endless war. People are talking about how their guns will keep them safe and we hear about so many murders that it just becomes a blur. Our wages and home prices are falling, debt is mounting, etc. All the time blaming china for our problems. Sheesh. WAKE UP!

We are on a serious decline and we're not even beginning to deal with it and correct it. Other countries, who respect and like us, who want to work with us, who are at peace with us, are just baffled at how dumb we can be and how self destructive we can be. Others, that are our enemies find it so easy to push our buttons and make us go into self destruct mode. Sad.

How can anyone really believe that more of the same is going to make things better?

Meanwhile, the rest of the developing world moves on into their own more positive future. We keep inventing new enemies and screaming at each other. Bankrupting ourselves and preparing for more wars. It's time for a hard reality check and a new approach. In fact it's way overdue.

John, i don't even know where to begin. as for China, would you like to ask the families of the 2000-3000 kids killed by the gov't in Tiananmen Square for protesting for democracy, how they feel about their great country? would you like to ask the Tibetan Monks who are routinely beaten, tortured and killed by the Chinese gov't, how everyone is treated fairly and with respect?
would you like to ask the families of Chinese construction workers (who only come home once a year for Chinese New Year), who have to travel around the country year 'round, picking up work so they can send money home to their wives and children to keep them from abject poverty, and who sleep on the concrete floor at the job site, how amazing their country is? or the poorest of the poor people who were given no notice (or compensation), when the shacks that they called home were plowed under to make room for Olympic facilities?
nice economy too- more than half of it is based on making counterfeit products. everything from golf clubs to fake prescription drugs are allowed to be produced, with a growing number of people dying annually from counterfeit Chinese medications.
BTW, would you like your gov't having the right to take your 6 year old child away from you because she shows some promise in a field like gymnastics, then provide her with a fake birth certificate so she can compete in international competitions, with you and your wife rarely being able to visit her?
i could go on about how for decades people have predicted the ugly demise of our country, and it hasn't happened yet for one reason- American citizens control their lives more than the people of any other country in the world, and we are allowed to succeed or fail at our own risk.
BTW, guess which country is the most charitable in the world....... BY ALOT! i'll give you a hint...... three letters and the first two are U.S............

I'm not saying China is better than the US. Never have and never will.

The comparison only helps to illustrate the differences that are real and to dispel some of the myths that get replayed over and over to promote hatred of China. I'd like to know your connection with China and how you've arrived at your conclusions. Have you visited there and talked to the Chinese people? Have you researched the items you cite for yourself? If so, when.

They are not perfect and I never said so. They are also not our enemy. The last twenty years have brought about enormous change to a country that poses no threat to us except in the fact that we have given them so much of our resources and commited so much future money to their loans.

My only point is that hating them, especially for some reasons that are false, is nonproductive. We will never go to war with them and there will never be a reason to do so. Trade and cultural exchange continues to be a huge factor in their modernization, capitalism and newer openness. The days of Mao and the Cultural Revolution are long over. At this point we are locked into a global economy with them and can't sever the ties. We can begin to make new policies, however, and begin to reverse our dependence on them. That would be a good thing and strengthen the dollar. It would also mean in change in the American conservative business philosophy. So before you get too carried away with your argument look around at your fellow conservatives and think about which business practices we should change. Change that Republicans don't want.

Poking China in the eye will do no more good than them poking us in the eye.

I think it is an orchestrated collapse, how else will the people in this county go for the NAU? Only the uneducated slackers who are constantly looking for a handout. The only econ I ever had was my senior year of high school, it opened my eyes. With that limited bit of info, I just opened my eyes. Things cannot go on the way they are. The future is regionalism, not globalism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raspy
I'd like to know your connection with China and how you've arrived at your conclusions. Have you visited there and talked to the Chinese people? Have you researched the items you cite for yourself? If so, when.


here are some i've found:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989


http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-4-14/68991.html


http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/13/sports/13gymnastics.php


http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/11579474/


http://chinaview.wordpress.com/category/social/law/forced-evictions/


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5693207

i could keep posting, but you get the point.

chipmonk,

I do get the point, and like you, I don't know where to start. As I said before I don't think China is better than here and I am not an appologist for their policies. I am also not trying to amass stories from the Internet to build a case that justifies hating them. What's the point?

Tiananmen square was 20 years ago and that means everything. It was a turning point and everything is different now.

Religions are looked upon more as cults in China. There are churches everywhere, just like here. They are also seen as potential threats when people gather and begin to protest. Any gathering for protests is viewed as dangerous. We have cults here too and they are looked at with suspicion. This is part of the Tibetan story.

Tibet is part of China and has been for a very long time. As an autonomous region they have many special privileges including lower taxes, lower requirements for college grades, can have more children, can carry weapons, etc.

Young athletes go to special training centers to prepare for the Olympics when they are near the age to compete. This is an honor. They are not kidnapped at 4 years old. The age of the competitors may very well be 13 instead of 16 and it cannot be verified. They probably are cheating. Birth certificates are handled in a different way than here and could easily be incorrect. I say incorrect instead of fake because there is a difference.

The story of fake products could fill volumes and is very funny and interesting, far too long to go into here. It is a very big deal and impossible to stop. It occurs with all products and all things. Not just fake CDs but fake everything. Money eggs, police officers, tickets, students, luggage, antiques, every product and every profession has fakes. Yes, I did say fake eggs and fake police officers. The list is endless.

China has always respected their religion and allowed their Dali Lama. This from ancient times when the dynasties ruled all.

In about 1947 when India became independent and a new border was drawn with China in Tibet, it caused a big dispute. Mao sent troops to restore order and to also stop the slave traders in Tibet. This is often portrayed as China invading Tibet. The Dali Lama was like a son to Mao and held a high position in the central government with Mao.

It's just a bit naive to use old history, spun to a modern reading, to justify hating China. Things are not always as they are played out by protesters and every country has had it's darker side in the past. Did you know the Chinese Embasy in San Francisco was recently bombed? Of course they're cautious, we are too.

I'm just wondering what trying to proving they are evil will get you? What is the point? They are not a military threat and they are a huge trading partner. They admire us. They are modernizing and adapting to new realities. Everyone is learning English. Our businesses love working with them and we get cheap products because of it (this is the problem when it causes unemployment here) but it's not them doing it to us, it's us doing it to us. I'm afraid your hatred is misdirected.

I suggest you go there and have one of the greatest experiences of your life. It's easy to go and so worth it. You will be glad to get home and you won't want to move there, but you'll be so glad you had a chance to see it and your world view will be greatly expanded.

Hmm here (http://www.tibet.com/whitepaper/white2.html) is an interesting read on Tibet and their take over by China.

Invasion and illegal annexation of Tibet: 1949-1951


Introduction

Treaties in international law are binding on the countries signing them, unless they are imposed by force or a country is coerced into signing the agreement by the threat of force. This is reflected in the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, which is regarded as a reflection of customary international law. The People's Republic of China (PRC) feels strongly about this principle, particularly as it applies to treaties and other agreements China was pressured to sign by Western powers at a time when China was weak. The PRC is particularly adamant that such "unequal" treaties and other agreements cannot be valid, no matter who signed them or for what reasons.

After the military invasion of Tibet had started and the small Tibetan army was defeated, the PRC imposed a treaty on the Tibetan Government under the terms of which Tibet was declared to be a part of China, albeit enjoying a large degree of autonomy. In the White Paper, China claims this treaty was entered into entirely voluntarily by the Tibetan Government, and that the Dalai Lama, his Government and the Tibetan people as a whole welcomed it. The facts show a very different story, leading to the conclusion that the so-called "17 Point Agreement for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet" was never validly concluded and was rejected by Tibetans. The Dalai Lama stated Tibetan Prime Minister Lukhangwa as having told Chinese General Zhang Jin-wu in 1952:

It was absurd to refer to the terms of the Seventeen-Point Agreement. Our people did not accept the agreement and the Chinese themselves had repeatedly broken the terms of it. Their army was still in occupation of eastern Tibet; the area had not been returned to the government of Tibet, as it should have been. [My Land and My People, Dalai Lama, New York, Fourth Edition, 1992, p.95]

Diplomatic activity and military threats

Soon after the Communist victory against the Guomindang and the founding of the PRC on 1 October 1949, Radio Beijing began to announce that "the People's Liberation Army must liberate all Chinese territories, including Tibet, Xinjiang, Hainan and Taiwan." Partly in response to this threat, and in order to resolve long-standing border disputes with China, the Foreign Office of the Tibetan Government, on 2 November 1949, wrote to Mao Zedong proposing negotiations to settle all territorial disputes. Copies of this letter were sent to the Governments of India, Great Britain and the United States. Although these three Governments considered the spread of Communism to be a threat to the stability of South Asia, they advised the Tibetan Government to enter into direct negotiations with Chinese Government as any other course of action might provoke military retaliation.

The Tibetan Government decided to send two senior officials, Tsepon Shakabpa and Tsechag Thubten Gyalpo, to negotiate with representatives of the PRC in a third country, possibly the USSR, Singapore or Hong Kong. These officials were to take up with the Chinese Government the content of the Tibetan Foreign Office's letter to Chairman Mao Zedong and the threatening Chinese radio announcements still being made about an imminent "liberation of Tibet"; they were to secure an assurance that the territorial integrity of Tibet would not be violated and to state that Tibet would not tolerate interference.

When the Tibetan delegates in Delhi applied for visas to Hong Kong, the Chinese told them that their new Ambassador to India was due to arrive in the capital shortly and that negotiations should be opened through him.

In the course of negotiations, the Chinese Ambassador, Yuan Zhong-xian, demanded that the Tibetan delegation accept a Two- point Proposal: i) Tibetan national defence will be handled by China; and ii) Tibet should be recognised as a part of China. They were then to proceed to China in confirmation of the agreement. On being informed of the Chinese demands, the Tibetan Government instructed its delegates to reject the proposal. So negotiations were suspended.

On 7 October 1950, 40,000 Chinese troops under Political Commissar, Wang Qiemi, attacked Eastern Tibet's provincial capital of Chamdo, from eight directions. The small Tibetan force, consisting of 8,000 troops and militia, were defeated. After two days, Chamdo was taken and Kalon (Minister) Ngapo Ngawang Jigme, the Regional Governor, was captured. Over 4,000 Tibetan fighters were killed.

The Chinese aggression came as a rude shock to India. In a sharp note to Beijing on 26 October 1950, the Indian Foreign Ministry wrote:

Now that the invasion of Tibet has been ordered by Chinese government, peaceful negotiations can hardly be synchronized with it and there naturally will be fear on the part of Tibetans that negotiations will be under duress. In the present context of world events, invasion by Chinese troops of Tibet cannot but be regarded as deplorable and in the considered judgement of the Government of India, not in the interest of China or peace.

A number of countries, including the United States and Britain, expressed their support for the Indian position.

The Tibetan National Assembly convened an emergency session in November 1950 at which it requested the Dalai Lama, only 16 at that time, to assume full authority as Head of State. The Dalai Lama was then requested to leave Lhasa for Dromo, near the Indian border, so that he would be out of personal danger.At the same time the Tibetan Foreign Office issued the followingstatement:

Tibet is united as one man behind the Dalai Lama who has taken over full powers. ... We have appealed to the world for peaceful intervention in (the face of this) clear case of unprovoked aggression.

The Tibetan Government also wrote to the Secretary General of the United Nations on 7 November 1950, appealing for the world body's intervention. The letter said, in part:

Tibet recognises that it is in no position to resist the Chinese advance. It is thus that it agreed to negotiate on friendly terms with the Chinese Government. ...Though there is little hope that a nation dedicated to peace will be able to resist the brutal effort of men trained to war, we understand that the United Nations has decided to stop aggression wherever it takes place.

On 17 November 1950, El Salvador formally asked that the aggression against Tibet be put on the General Assembly agenda. However, the issue was not discussed in the UN General Assembly at the suggestion of the Indian delegation who asserted that a peaceful solution which is mutually advantageous to Tibet, India and China could be reached between the parties concerned. A second letter by the Tibetan delegation to the United Nations on 8 December 1950 did not change the situation.

Faced with the military occupation of Eastern and Northern Tibet, the defeat and destruction of its small army, the advance of tens of thousands of more PLA troops into Central Tibet, and the lack of active support from the international community, the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government decided to send a delegation to Beijing for negotiations with the new Chinese leadership.

"Seventeen-Point Agreement"

In April 1951, the Tibetan Government sent a five-member delegation to Beijing, led by Kalon Ngapo Ngawang Jigme. The Tibetan Government authorised its delegation to put forward the Tibetan stand and listen to the Chinese position. But, contrary to the claim made in the White Paper that the delegation had "full powers," it was expressly not given the plenipotentiary authority to conclude an agreement. In fact, it was instructed to refer all important matters to the Government.

On 29 April negotiations opened with the presentation of a draft agreement by the leader of the Chinese delegation. The Tibetan delegation rejected the Chinese proposal in toto, after which the Chinese tabled a modified draft that was equally unacceptable to the Tibetan delegation. At this point, the Chinese delegates, Li Weihan and Zhang Jin-wu, made it plain that the terms, as they now stood, were final and amounted to an ultimatum. The Tibetan delegation was addressed in harsh and insulting terms, threatened with physical violence, and members were virtually kept prisoners. No further discussion was permitted, and, contrary to Chinese claims, the Tibetan delegation was prevented from contacting its Government for instructions. It was given the onerous choice of either signing the "Agreement" on its own authority or accepting responsibility for an immediate military advance on Lhasa.

Under immense Chinese pressure the Tibetan delegation signed the "Agreement of the Central People's Government and the Local Government of Tibet on Measures for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet" on 23 May 1951, without being able to inform the Tibetan Government. The delegation warned the Chinese that they were signing only in their personal capacity and had no authority to bind either the Dalai Lama or the Tibetan Government to the "Agreement".

None of this posed an obstacle to the Chinese Government to proceed with a signing ceremony and to announce to the world that an "agreement" had been concluded for the "peaceful liberation of Tibet". Even the seals affixed to the document were forged by the Chinese Government to give it the necessary semblance of authenticity. The seventeen clauses of the "Agreement", among other things, authorised the entry into Tibet of Chinese forces and empowered the Chinese Government to handle Tibet's external affairs. On the other hand, it guaranteed that China would not alter the existing political system in Tibet and not interfere with the established status, function, and powers of the Dalai Lama or the Panchen Lama. The Tibetan people were to have regional autonomy, and their religious beliefs and customs were to be respected. Internal reforms in Tibet would be effected after consultation with leading Tibetans and without compulsion.

The full text of what came to be known as the "Seventeen-Point Agreement" was broadcast by Radio Beijing on 27 May 1951. This was the first time the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government heard of the devastating document. The reaction in Dromo (where the Dalai Lama was staying at that time) and Lhasa was one of shock and disbelief.

A message was immediately sent to the delegation in Beijing, reprimanding them for signing the "Agreement" without consulting the Government for instructions. The delegation was asked to send the text of the document they had signed, and wait in Beijing for further instructions. In the meantime, a telegraphic message was received from the delegation to say that the Chinese Government representative, General Zhang Jin-wu, was already on his way to Dromo, via India. It added that some of the delegation members were returning, via India, and the leader of the delegation was returning directly to Lhasa.

The Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government withheld the public repudiation of the "Agreement". The Dalai Lama returned to Lhasa on 17 August 1951 in the hope of re-negotiating a more favourable treaty with the Chinese.

On 9 September 1951, around 3,000 Chinese troops marched into Lhasa, soon followed by some 20,000 more, from eastern Tibet and from Eastern Turkestan (Xinjiang) in the north. The PLA occupied the principal cities of Ruthok and Gartok, and then Gyangtse and Shigatse. With the occupation of all the major cities of Tibet, including Lhasa, and large concentration of troops throughout eastern and western Tibet, the military control of Tibet was virtually complete. From this position, China refused to re-open negotiations and the Dalai Lama had effectively lost the ability to either accept or reject any Tibet-China agreement. However, on the first occasion he had of expressing himself freely again, which came only on 20 June 1959, after his flight to India, the Dalai Lama formally repudiated the "Seventeen-Point Agreement", as having been "thrust upon Tibetan Government and people by the threat of arms".

In assessing the "17-Point Agreement on Measures for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet" and the occupation of Tibet two factors are crucial. First, the extent to which China was violating international law when the PLA marched into Tibet, and second, the effect of the signing of the "Agreement".

The law governing treaties is based on the universally recognised principle that the foundation of conventional obligations is the free and mutual consent of contracting parties and, conversely, that freedom of consent is essential to the validity of an agreement. Treaties brought about by the threat or the use of force lack legal validity, particularly if the coercion is applied to the country and government in question rather than only on the negotiators themselves. With China occupying large portions of Tibet and openly threatening a full military advance to Lhasa unless the treaty was signed, the "agreement" was invalid ab initio, meaning that it could not even be validated by a later act of acquiescence by the Tibetan Government.

Contrary to China's claim in its White Paper, the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government did not act voluntarily in signing the "Agreement". In fact, Mao Zedong himself, in the Directive of Central Committee of CPC on the Policies for our Work in Tibet, issued on 6 April 1952, admitted:

(N)ot only the two Silons (i.e., prime ministers) but also the Dalai and most of his clique were reluctant to accept the Agreement and are unwilling to carry it out. ... As yet we do not have a material base for fully implementing the agreement, nor do we have a base for this purpose in terms of support among the masses or in the upper stratum. [Selected Works of Mao Tsetung, Vol. 5, Foreign Language Press, Peking, 1977, p.75]

i have visited Hong Kong, Vietnam (for the secondtime first time in '67) I have visited Singapour, Kalur Lampor, Penang, Thialand. I have been very impressed by their modern structures. their advanced engineering and architectural design.
i left vietnam when it was in shambles in '67 as i imagine others had seen it that are part of this forum. i was impressed when i returned to the very airport that I had left from so many years before.
i do wish the news media in this country would report the truth instead of american BS.
for those of you that may have served in 'nam and remember stars and stripes news and the lies that they spread. we stood there in amazement at the lies that were being told about the conflict. well folks not much has changed about the news media.
by the way get your soapbox out, go to your city square, or county seat, or state capitol (don't try the nations capitol you'd probably be shot) and accuse your mayor or govenor and rightfully so of whatever and see how long it takes for you to be arrested.
i love this country and it makes me sick to see what is transpiring. i couldn't find the oppression in hong kong or vietnam that i was told was so prevelent. i went to visit citizens of those countries, not hotel tourist so my perspective of the country was not white washed by others.
i am a general contractor and what i saw in those countries blew me away. they are years ahead of us.

John, you need to re-read your post #9 and see that i'm not trying to hate China or it's people, but responding to your comments about China that i think are the result of a great trip there, but not the reality of living there.
i've never been there at all, but have read quite a bit and it seems that it's a hot bed for human rights violations and religious intolerance. are you saying the thousands of web sites (most having nothing to do with the U.S. or their slant on the issue), and countless groups that spend endless hours fighting for the rights of the Chinese people are mistaken also?
during the early years of Nazi Germany, the concentration camps were completely hidden from visiting foreigners, and they had Jews dressed in festive German costumes playing happy German tunes in the street, and many of these visitors said that the whole idea of concentration camps and the Holocaust was rediculous. they said that they had been there and saw no gas chambers or ovens, only a nice country with happy people everywhere.

BTW, here's a report of 2 elderly Chinese people sentenced to 1 year of 're-education through labor' for applying for permission to protest in an area set aside for protests during the Olympics (good thing they got these 79 and 77 year old thugs off the streets) :


"In another case, petitioners Wu Dianyuan, 79, and Wang Xiuying, 77, were sentenced to one year of "re-education through labor" after applying to demonstrate in areas set aside for protests during the Games, Human Rights in China said."

chipmonk,

I'm sure I don't have all the facts. But I'm not slanting my observations to argue my points. And I still see no reason to justify hating a country that has a close working relationship, and a friendly one, with us. My visits there offered a unique chance to study history and culture. Right away I began to see discrepancies between what was taught in the US and what I saw there. Human nature is the same everywhere and ugly things can happen there just as easy as here. People get arrested here for protesting, people get beaten up by cops sometimes, groups get watched and charges get trumped up. Church members really are dangerous here sometimes.

I don't know if it's necessaary to go into detail and I don't expect to change minds that are made up, but my experiences in China are way different than the normal visitor might expect. My friend and companion was a well educated English teacher with a 20 year career in teaching. She has been involved with a large group of friends that went through college together and still are in touch constantly. They all share experiences and are all succesful in China. At least one travels internationally for the government. One of her friends is the equal to Condi Rice in China and visits Washington regularly. Her sister in-law is a Chinese Congressman and her father is a well known doctor. These are all folks that are involved from one end of China to the other, have had a lot of experiences, well educated, in touch with each other and in touch with how China is operating and it's history. I met them all and tapped into this resource with intense interest. For years now I have not stopped my probing. I still meet with some of them here from time to time and will again in a couple of months.

My goals have been to understand the Chinese culture and something about it's vast history. How communism came about and what it both meant and means now. And to understand more about the propaganda spread here and there. I have learned a lot about their legal system, interaction with the police, capitalism, travel, fake products, and on and on.

I went there unguarded, unarmed and completely vulnerable. I went wherever I wanted, asked anyone anything I wanted and never stopped investigating anything that interested me. I went on-line, stayed in various hotels in various cities, walked the streets night and day, did banking, toured factories and met a lot of people. Went to sporting events, bars, restaurants, ancient buildings, museums, a military base and book stores. I taught an English class in middle school one day and met all the students. Even shared their lunch and laughed with them as they swarmed me after class wanting to hear more. Learned about getting birth certificates, passports, notary stamps and all sorts of legal records. The list goes on and on.

A very important part of it all was trying to understand the government, how it works and what it's intentions are. The logistics of managing the affairs of and feeding 1.3 billion people in a country the size of the US. The transition from dynasties to communism to single party capitalism. The rise of the English alphabet and spoken language there. From a starving populace to an optimistic and well educated one. Over and over China considers itself misunderstood by the West. And we are happy to have a scapegoat to blame for our problems.

I've come away wanting to visit again and feeling compelled to question those that want to blame China for our own problems. Wishing that more of my countrymen could visit that place to expand their world view and let go of some of the fear of the unknown.

Q. Low inflation over the recent past is evidence that our economic and monetary policies are working. Why should we change now?

A. Despite the common perception that the US Federal Reserve has deftly guided this country through the rising waters of inflation, in reality, two specific factors are principally responsible for low inflation in recent years: (1) declining import prices; (2) declining labor costs at home due to pressures from low import prices. Neither of these factors can be expected to control inflation forever. In reality they have merely postponed an inevitable outbreak of inflation. Interest rate and money supply management will not be enough to compensate for the structural imbalances and massive debts that have been accumulated.

By shifting our consumption from domestic to foreign-produced goods, we have shifted wealth-producing industries abroad and dropped our savings rate from double digits to negative digits. So-called globalization and "free trade" have taken our labor force with its world-leading standard of living and pitted it against the bottom of the world in terms of labor rates and standards of living. There is no way our labor force can compete with this. If these trends continue, the massive wealth transfer that is now taking place will dramatically erode the standard of living of our labor force. Already real wages have stopped growing, and we will eventually face severe inflation as our dollar falls on foreign exchange markets and foreign suppliers take advantage of the collapse of our manufacturing base.

For example, import prices for consumer goods (excluding autos) over the last 20 years have increased on average less than 2% per year while overall domestic inflation (consumer price index) has increased over 3% per year. Furthermore, over the past 10 years, consumer import prices (excluding autos) have actually decreased. In fact, the index of prices for all imports excluding oil has decreased over the last 10 years.

The conclusion is that if import prices were to rise (which we would have no control of), it would have a substantial impact on our inflation and therefore our standard of living. We have taken the bait. The cheap imports have lured us to substitute them for our domestic production. Our idled factories have then been purchased on the cheap or shut down completely. As other countries come up, and as our negotiating position and dollar weakens, we have every reason to assume that import prices will rise and our domestic inflation will likewise rise. Coupled with the immense pressure on our US dollar by virtue of trillions of dollars of cumulative trade deficits, it seems much more likely than not that our pace of inflation is set to dramatically increase

Q. How have our economic policies really affected the ownership and strength of US industries?

A. The United States now no longer controls many of its domestic industries. Over the last 10 years alone foreigners have spent $1.2 trillion to acquire more than 8,000 key US companies. Already as of 2002, foreigners owned fully 20 percent of American manufacturing. In many high-tech and defense-related industries, the proportion is far higher. Such US industries as mining, cement, publishing, engine and power transmission equipment, rubber and plastics, and sound recording and motion pictures are now largely foreign owned. Even in industries like pharmaceuticals, chemicals, industrial machinery, transportation equipment, electronics, metal industries, and coal and petroleum industries, foreign ownership has recently become very high.

Increasingly therefore profits and technological secrets in such industries accrue to foreign owners. Moreover many of the key jobs (in research and development, for instance) go to foreign workers, while the profits that accrue to foreign holding companies boost the tax revenues of foreign governments. We are no longer capable of producing many critical components needed in our high-tech and defense industries

Q. America's trade deficits signify strength not weakness, right? After all if other countries keep lending to us at the rate of $1.4 million per minute (based on last year's $723 billion trade deficit), they clearly regard our economy as one of the world's foremost.

A. This is absolutely false. The trade deficit represents the cost of living beyond our means. A nation with a large trade deficit is not that different from a person spending above his means. If you have had a successful career but suddenly lose your job, you still have a lot of credit available to you on your credit cards. Thus you can continue to enjoy a fine lifestyle for some time after your income stops. But if you do not find a new job in the end you will hit your credit limit and life will then change dramatically. This is not the equivalent of an individual having a perennial "trade deficit" with their local grocer while maintaining a surplus with their other employment and income accounts. The true analog would be as noted - an unemployed individual continuing to spend freely sustained temporarily with nothing but credit based on past worth.

Just as a person cannot continue running up credit forever, no nation can either. The key difference between a nation and a person is that a nation can print money and thus can delay the day of reckoning. Eventually, however, other countries will tire of accepting mere pieces of paper in exchange for their goods.

Since we have not been producing enough goods or services to make up for our ever rising consumption of foreign goods, other countries have bought our government's bond or used our own dollars to buy US industries, land, and natural resources. No other country in history has had a trade deficit as large as the US as a percentage of GDP or in total dollar terms without suffering a major collapse. Other countries seem to be content to continue this financing until we have absolutely nothing left to sell - no industries, no real estate, and no resources. Our currency has not lost much value yet because other countries are actively engaged in propping it up while they continue to hollow out our industries. This prop creates a false sense of economic health thereby making it difficult to rally public support for desperately needed painful corrections.

In the ten years to 2004, foreign countries acquired US assets totaling $8 trillion. By our count this includes majority control of 8,000 US companies at a total cost of at least $1.2 trillion. It also includes vast holdings of US government securities, huge tracts of land, and countless factories - plus the influence and other intangible benefits that go along with such investments.

The United States likewise invested $6 trillion in foreign countries during this period, for a net deficit to the US of $2 trillion. But, as far as our long-term security is concerned, the key thing is the sell-off of our productive and irreplaceable assets. We cannot hope to replace our lost industries or security by purchasing assets overseas. Most Americans work in this country. Most of what we need to protect this country should be produced in this country.

In the ten years to 2004, the proportion of US corporate equities owned by foreigners increased from 6 percent to 12 percent. In the case of US corporate bonds the proportion increased from 12 percent to 24 percent and in the case of US Treasury bonds from 18 percent to 43 percent. As if all this was not alarming enough, here is a further fact to consider: in the case of many of their corporate investments, foreigners have clearly been intent on gaining global control of key "chokepoint" technologies, such as those needed to produce advanced weapons, airplanes, and computers. In the past, America's control of such technologies has been its defining advantage in leading the world community.

Under the harsh light of objective reality, the recent massive acquisition of US core industrial assets by foreign companies and foreign governments cannot be dismissed as mere xenophobic reactionism. Without critical domestically controlled industry to generate opportunity and wealth and provide security for its citizens, it is difficult to imagine how any country could call itself a "superpower."