I know today is supposed to be a day of rememberance and honor, but did any one else notice some things during the two senators visit to the memorial?

I was astounded and appalled at the rose on the memorial scene. I have never, ever, in my life seen anyone toss flowers on a grave or memorial.

In the video on MSN, Obama leans over and tosses the rose/flower onto the memorial, wheras everyone else shows proper sentiments and places theirs gently.

[yuk]

In a few body gestures he also showed he lacked interest.

Perhaps I'm over reacting. Utmost respect is what we would expect and this video clip was far short.

I watched it live and did notice him tossing the rose. Kinda teed me off.
Other than that he did OK until the end and then looked a little bored.

Just take his mark and it will all be clear....

The picture is the headline for the event on MSNBC now.

Now that I see it a second time... even more tee'd here.

http://stb.msn.com/i/58/DE856F13607C329099179852EB2B7A.jpg

so how did you guys honor the fallen on this day in Texas, Arizona, and Oregon?
did you show your respects by going to the site and standing for the roll call of the 2751?
did you bring lunch or dinner to your local firehouse, so that there was one less thing they had to do on this day?
did you send out care packages to our troops serving in Afghanistan or Iraq?
or are you politicizing this day, and putting the focus on a politician and how he placed a rose at the memorial service, instead of on the 2751 who perished there 7 years ago.

so how did you guys honor the fallen on this day in Texas, Arizona, and Oregon?
did you show your respects by going to the site and standing for the roll call of the 2751?
did you bring lunch or dinner to your local firehouse, so that there was one less thing they had to do on this day?
did you send out care packages to our troops serving in Afghanistan or Iraq?
or are you politicizing this day, and putting the focus on a politician and how he placed a rose at the memorial service, instead of on the 2751 who perished there 7 years ago.

Very well said. The last thing on anyones mind should be how either candidate placed a flower on a memorial. It should be a day to focus on those lost and their families not on politics. Both were there hopefully to pay respect and not to further their campaign.

I believe the title said "politics of" and it is in the politics forum. So yes, you are absolutely right. The point of this thread is politics and we, myself specifically, chose to make this specific event between two politicians, political.

You're right, the focus of this thread is on how he placed the rose on the memorial and not those fallen.

[QUOTE=Timmay2;2206843]I believe the title said "politics of" and it is in the politics forum. So yes, you are absolutely right. The point of this thread is politics and we, myself specifically, chose to make this specific event between two politicians, political.

You're right, the focus of this thread is on how he placed the rose on the memorial and not those fallen.[/QUOTE


My mistake I did not pay attention to what forum this was posted in. If you want to make today about my candidate is better than yours be my guest. I will leave politics out of today and remember it for what it was. Thats all I have to say. Have a nice day.

so how did you guys honor the fallen on this day in Texas, Arizona, and Oregon?
did you show your respects by going to the site and standing for the roll call of the 2751?
did you bring lunch or dinner to your local firehouse, so that there was one less thing they had to do on this day?
did you send out care packages to our troops serving in Afghanistan or Iraq?
or are you politicizing this day, and putting the focus on a politician and how he placed a rose at the memorial service, instead of on the 2751 who perished there 7 years ago.

OUCH!....Great post Chipmonk. If the hypocrisy isn't bad enough, it's just more tabloid level crap from some of the people on this forum that does nothing but grow the divide. I mean come on people, you're trying to make a big deal out of how Obama placed a rose. Pathetic.

Sorry, I was out in the country and flying my flag at half mast for the 2751 souls lost that day. I've done more, but that was the best I could do today. I hope todays events was enough to wake up those that have forgotten that there are STILL terrorists out there that want to kill us all.

And yes, I am politicizing and putting focus on a politician that showed little respect for the reason he was there. And like I said, at the end he looked bored.

so how did you guys honor the fallen on this day in Texas, Arizona, and Oregon?
did you show your respects by going to the site and standing for the roll call of the 2751?
did you bring lunch or dinner to your local firehouse, so that there was one less thing they had to do on this day?
did you send out care packages to our troops serving in Afghanistan or Iraq?
or are you politicizing this day, and putting the focus on a politician and how he placed a rose at the memorial service, instead of on the 2751 who perished there 7 years ago.

OUCH!....Great post Chipmonk. If the hypocrisy isn't bad enough, it's just more tabloid level crap from some of the people on this forum that does nothing but grow the divide. I mean come on people, you're trying to make a big deal out of how Obama placed a rose. Pathetic.

And there are those of us that think his action, and your attitude about his disrespect, is also pathetic. No doubt though, you are one of your tunnel vision cronies, will find something just as trivial to counter with.

No, I gently placed flowers on the grave of my uncle (Marine WWII, south Pacific) who gave the best years of his life for his country. Guess I kind of felt it was time I said hello and thanks.


it's a very good day to say hello and thanks to those who served their communities, city, and country, who can no longer be with their families or take their trucks out for a drive on a September day.

Obama shows his true colors in his actions, all you have to do is watch him. He tossed that flower because he truly doesn't care and he can't hide that fact any more than a leopard can hide his spots.

A person that truly cares would have laid it down softly with reverence and careful deliberation knowing the whole country is watching his every move....

And there are those of us that think his action, and your attitude about his disrespect, is also pathetic. No doubt though, you are one of your tunnel vision cronies, will find something just as trivial to counter with.

My attitude about who's disrespect? Obama's? You can't be serious? The man was there to show his respect, leaves a rose and you claim that to be disrespectful. Dude, you need to step back and take a serious look at yourself. I'd have more respect for you if you just came out and said you don't like the man and leave it at that. But to try and make something of the way he leaves a rose? I'll say it again, pathetic. Secondly, I never expressed an opinion one way or the other until now about what I thought of what Obama did. I did nothing but complement chipmonk on a good post and comment about the hypocracy that he initially brought to light.

As far as me or others countering with something trivial, I can only speak for myself......won't happen. Go ahead shop thru all of my posts, you won't find anything so tabloid as this. I won't now, nor have I ever lowered myself to the level of some of the conservative posters on this site. It's much easier and more fun pointing out your hypocrisies. And the fact that it was another conservative that was the first to point it out is beautiful.

it's a very good day to say hello and thanks to those who served their communities, city, and country, who can no longer be with their families or take their trucks out for a drive on a September day.
Well said.

Obama shows his true colors in his actions, all you have to do is watch him. He tossed that flower because he truly doesn't care and he can't hide that fact any more than a leopard can hide his spots.

A person that truly cares would have laid it down softly with reverence and careful deliberation knowing the whole country is watching his every move....

i so didn't want to get anywhere near this, but the reason Obama tossed his rose (like many other mourners did, including NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg) was because he/they were trying to get their roses in this area towards the middle of the memorial, where there was a replica of the footprints of the buildings themselves.

I'd have more respect for you if you just came out and said you don't like the man and leave it at that.

OK, I don't like the man! I don't like most of the changes he wants to make, I don't like the way he lies about his past (ie, rev wright, rezko) and I don't like his racist wife. [verymad] What I do like is his charisma and ability to read a teleprompter. :)

OK, I don't like the man! I don't like most of the changes he wants to make, I don't like the way he lies about his past (ie, rev wright, rezko) and I don't like his racist wife. [verymad] What I do like is his charisma and ability to read a teleprompter. :)

You forgot his ability to toss flowers about willy nilly [laugh]

You forgot his ability to toss flowers about willy nilly [laugh]

Ooops! Forgot the disrespect part. [laugh]

You forgot his ability to toss flowers about willy nilly [laugh]

Ooops! Forgot the disrespect part. [laugh]

i guess my post yesterday about why he, Mayor Bloomberg, and countless other mourners tossed their flowers into the middle of the memorial, became invisible when it didn't match up to the rediculous online rhetoric that seems to mean more to you than the truth.

i am PI$$ED that fellow conservatives, who never spent a single second of their lives breathing in the toxic air, digging in voids on the smoking hot pile, or pulling out a single piece of human remains, feel so bold to use this event however they see fit, and don't seem to think twice about taking a joking tone in your posts. proud of yourselves?

so how did you guys honor the fallen on this day in Texas, Arizona, and Oregon?
did you show your respects by going to the site and standing for the roll call of the 2751?
did you bring lunch or dinner to your local firehouse, so that there was one less thing they had to do on this day?
did you send out care packages to our troops serving in Afghanistan or Iraq?
or are you politicizing this day, and putting the focus on a politician and how he placed a rose at the memorial service, instead of on the 2751 who perished there 7 years ago.

Exactly. Give me a break.

People are waaaaay to worried about Obama and what he's doing and not doing.

Just sit back and enjoy the ride, come Jan. 09 we'll get a chance to see some NEW ideas in Washington!

Only from those who will benifit monataraly PJ,there is no altruism in that cesspool.[laugh]

If your president was in Russia, China, Iran, England, France, etc and simply threw a flower on one of their monuments, how do you think they would react? Better still, how would YOU react?

...............come Jan. 09 we'll get a chance to see some NEW ideas in Washington!

True, regardless of who wins.

If your president was in Russia, China, Iran, England, France, etc and simply threw a flower on one of their monuments, how do you think they would react? Better still, how would YOU react?

what part of this don't you understand or choose not to hear? Obama, Mayor Bloomberg, and many of the mourners (including family members of those killed) tossed their flowers towards the middle of the memorial, to get them near where footprints of the two buildings had been made. i'm glad that you, sitting in Texas, are trying to tell the world what was going on in NYC, where the event took place.

this is the most assinine, partisan political crap i've ever seen.

Ok I'll chime in here.
I watched it and noticed that Obama tossed and McCain laid his rose.
Was it disrespectful???? Eh maybe or maybe not. I think the difference between the two was not so much Obama's lack of respect but more of McCain's conscious effort to show respect. Wasn't really a big deal to me but knowing that their every move is under the microscope from both sides the smarter thing to do would have been to lay the flower instead of tossing it.
Now forgetting to put his hand over his heart during the Pledge or national anthem is something more concerning!!
This is a standard of respect for flag and country. If he can forget that what other things might he forget??

i guess my post yesterday about why he, Mayor Bloomberg, and countless other mourners tossed their flowers into the middle of the memorial, became invisible when it didn't match up to the rediculous online rhetoric that seems to mean more to you than the truth.

i am PI$$ED that fellow conservatives, who never spent a single second of their lives breathing in the toxic air, digging in voids on the smoking hot pile, or pulling out a single piece of human remains, feel so bold to use this event however they see fit, and don't seem to think twice about taking a joking tone in your posts. proud of yourselves?

You need to get off your high horse and come back down to EARTH. You have NO idea what I have done or sacrificed for you and the love of this country. If I choose to see No bama's actions as disrespectful, I have that right and earned it the hard way.

Ok I'll chime in here.
I watched it and noticed that Obama tossed and McCain laid his rose.
Was it disrespectful???? Eh maybe or maybe not. I think the difference between the two was not so much Obama's lack of respect but more of McCain's conscious effort to show respect. Wasn't really a big deal to me but knowing that their every move is under the microscope from both sides the smarter thing to do would have been to lay the flower instead of tossing it.


thanks for chiming in with your incorrect assessment.
some of you guys are PATHETIC with your armchair comments without ANY firsthand knowledge.
hey ron, why don't you tell Mayor Bloomberg and the countless other mourners that you're judging their tossing of their flowers into the tower outlines in the memorial, as something that 'may or may not be disrespectful'. better yet, i'll give you some of their addresses so you can drop them a line yourself, and you can explain to them the proper way to honor their dead loved ones.

You need to get off your high horse and come back down to EARTH. You have NO idea what I have done or sacrificed for you and the love of this country.

being as that i was never there (where you sacrificed for your country), i would never judge a politician or anyone else who was mourning your dead in the same way that many of the families were, because I decided that I was now the authority on appropriate actions at the memorial, and not the families involved.

if you're claiming that Obama's actions were disrespectful yesterday, than you're saying that the actions of hundreds of mourners (including family members of the victims) were disrespectful of their own dead, and you don't have that right.

being as that i was never there (where you sacrificed for your country), i would never judge a politician or anyone else who was mourning your dead in the same way that many of the families were, because I decided that I was now the authority on appropriate actions at the memorial, and not the families involved.

Again you are completely out of line, you ARE judging me and I never claimed to be the authority on appropriate actions at a memorial, just exercising my right to state MY opinion.

But since we are on the subject of Memorials and appropriate actions, I indeed have served on MANY Military burial details where APPROPRIATE actions were not only dictated by Military custom but also by moral obligation to the families. I can tell you that we NEVER threw anything at anything or person dead or alive.

You handle everything with careful pride and dignity to ensure that the respect of the lost ones and the family are NOT ignored.

thanks for chiming in with your incorrect assessment.
some of you guys are PATHETIC with your armchair comments without ANY firsthand knowledge.
hey ron, why don't you tell Mayor Bloomberg and the countless other mourners that you're judging their tossing of their flowers into the tower outlines in the memorial, as something that 'may or may not be disrespectful'. better yet, i'll give you some of their addresses so you can drop them a line yourself, and you can explain to them the proper way to honor their dead loved ones.
Geez!! don't get your panties in such a wad!!
What part of;
"Eh maybe or maybe not." & "Wasn't really a big deal to me" did you not understand??

Hello....Wake up!

What part of my question don't you understand? Quit being asinine and dancing around and answer my questions!

what part of this don't you understand or choose not to hear? Obama, Mayor Bloomberg, and many of the mourners (including family members of those killed) tossed their flowers towards the middle of the memorial, to get them near where footprints of the two buildings had been made. i'm glad that you, sitting in Texas, are trying to tell the world what was going on in NYC, where the event took place.

this is the most assinine, partisan political crap i've ever seen.

OK guys WARNING time......From the rules regarding participating in Political discussion here:

1. No bashing: We will not tolerate insults and trash talking between members.

This means leave the insults out of it. Call the Candidates what you want, tell us how stupid you think their ideas are but leave the PERSONAL insults out of it.

This means you can not call each other Assinine, Pathetic etc..... If you can't make your point without being personal, don't post here.

If your president was in Russia, China, Iran, England, France, etc and simply threw a flower on one of their monuments, how do you think they would react? Better still, how would YOU react?

Hello....Wake up!

What part of my question don't you understand? Quit being asinine and dancing around and answer my questions!

if the other mourners (including family members of the dead) were tossing their flowers at a certain section of the monument, i would expect my president to do the same, and my reaction would be that he was doing the appropriate thing.

if President Bush had done this overseas, and the 'liberal media' decided to take it out of context and only make reference to his tossing of a flower, and exclude the fact that he was following what the local Mayor and many of the local mourners had done, you would be SCREAMING about how the liberal media was intentionally twisting the facts to make Bush look like an Edit, but since this is being done here, to a politician who you despise, you support it.

is that good enough for answering your question, or do you need to be shown further how wrong you are?
and for the record, i never called anyone assinine, but said the partisan garbage was assinine (but did say that some were pathetic), so i apologize for that.

i am concerned about the 9/11 speeches the attack was talked about as if it were a natural diseaster not a terrioist act, we can not forget or forgive the action of those or their supporters that committed this horrible act.

my biggest concern is that one of the sympathisers may become president

"Eh maybe or maybe not." & "Wasn't really a big deal to me" did you not understand??

'cause it has nothing to do with you, it has to do with the people who were directly affected.
it's one of the things i've grown to loathe about some staunch republicans- they seem to reserve the right to pass judgement on just about everything, even when they couldn't be more far removed from the situation.
sit thousands of miles away, and judge a situation that you have no first hand knowledge of, by a post in a diesel truck forum, or a picture circulated online, and even when pointed out that the conclusion you jumped to was incorrect, still insist that you know better (not you personally, but the more general 'you').

if President Bush had done this overseas, and the 'liberal media' decided to take it out of context and only make reference to his tossing of a flower, and exclude the fact that he was following what the local Mayor and many of the local mourners had done, you would be SCREAMING about how the liberal media was intentionally twisting the facts to make Bush look like an Edit, but since this is being done here, to a politician who you despise, you support it.


WE are NOT the media, WE are voicing our PERSONAL opinions and not trying to influence millions of people by falsely reporting the news in an effort to swing voters one way or the other.

I 100% support your right to disagree with anything I say here, your opinion is just as welcome as the rest of them, but nothing you or I say is going to change how we vote this year.

chipmonk
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,143


[Quote]'cause it has nothing to do with you, it has to do with the people who were directly affected.
it's one of the things i've grown to loathe about some staunch republicans- they seem to reserve the right to pass judgement on just about everything, even when they couldn't be more far removed from the situation.
sit thousands of miles away, and judge a situation that you have no first hand knowledge of, by a post in a diesel truck forum, or a picture circulated online, and even when pointed out that the conclusion you jumped to was incorrect, still insist that you know better (not you personally, but the more general 'you').

OK I now understand where you are coming from...You think that 9/11 did not effect anyone that is NOT in New York, you somehow have the twisted notion that ALL of us were not effected and as such we have no right to our opinions.

Shame on you.....

I 100% support your right to disagree with anything I say here, your opinion is just as welcome as the rest of them, but nothing you or I say is going to change how we vote this year.

who is trying to change how you vote this year??????

i will be voting for McCain, but not because Obama followed the lead of the Mayor and hundreds of mourners, by tossing a flower at a specific location in a monument. there are real things that Obama has done wrong in the past (as has McCain), but this is not one of them.

chipmonk
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,143
[Quote]



OK I now understand where you are coming from...You think that 9/11 did not effect anyone that is NOT in New York, you somehow have the twisted notion that ALL of us were not effected and as such we have no right to our opinions.

Shame on you.....
my children are far too young to be serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, so i am absolutely not as affected as any single one of the loved ones of those who are serving, and defer to them to mourn their losses as they see fit, as i am removed from direct involvement. if (GOD forbid) i ever have to mourn a loved one lost in battle, i would take the same tone with someone casting judgement, who was sitting comfortably at home without being directly involved, but maybe that's just my own personal set of values.

anyone not killed, injured, lost a loved one, or dealing with current or future health problems related to being exposed to the toxic environment at the site, was not directly affected by 9/11, the same as i'm not directly affected by the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

sit thousands of miles away, and judge a situation that you have no first hand knowledge of, by a post in a diesel truck forum, or a picture circulated online, and even when pointed out that the conclusion you jumped to was incorrect, still insist that you know better (not you personally, but the more general 'you').
I jumped to no conclusion!!
I passed no judgment on Obama's actions but rather said, "Wasn't really a big deal to me"!!

Who's talking about Bush? It's obvious that not everyone tossed the flowers to the center of the monument. Shouldn't a president lead by example? If someone drove thru your local cometary and pulled up all of the flowers, would it be respectful for someone else to do it again just because someone else did it first? This is as simple as personal respect that some folks just don't have. FYI....I'll be one of the first to jump on anyone who shows disrespect to a memorial dedicated to innocent people.

And save your key strokes, you will never convince me that I'm wrong about his insult to the memorial site.

I'm sorry I offended anyone here on DTR.

You still haven't showed me that I'm wrong......just that in your opinion, it's Ok to toss flowers at a memorial.

if the other mourners (including family members of the dead) were tossing their flowers at a certain section of the monument, i would expect my president to do the same, and my reaction would be that he was doing the appropriate thing.

if President Bush had done this overseas, and the 'liberal media' decided to take it out of context and only make reference to his tossing of a flower, and exclude the fact that he was following what the local Mayor and many of the local mourners had done, you would be SCREAMING about how the liberal media was intentionally twisting the facts to make Bush look like an Edit, but since this is being done here, to a politician who you despise, you support it.

is that good enough for answering your question, or do you need to be shown further how wrong you are?
and for the record, i never called anyone assinine, but said the partisan garbage was assinine (but did say that some were pathetic), so i apologize for that.

I am truly glad that your children are to young to go to war and hope they never have to.

Thank God, I do not have any close family members or friends that have been killed it the ME. I do have very close family and good friends that have been there, and some are going back. To the man/woman, they volunteered to join the military and every one believes that being in the ME is a necessity to keep tabs on the radicals that have sworn to kill us all. If I thought terrorist would would leave us alone and that radicals like Iran and others around the world would live happily-ever-after, I'd be the first to say to recall our troops.

[quote=Lary Ellis (Top);2207552]chipmonk
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,143

my children are far too young to be serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, so i am absolutely not as affected as any single one of the loved ones of those who are serving, and defer to them to mourn their losses as they see fit, as i am removed from direct involvement. if (GOD forbid) i ever have to mourn a loved one lost in battle, i would take the same tone with someone casting judgement, who was sitting comfortably at home without being directly involved, but maybe that's just my own personal set of values.

anyone not killed, injured, lost a loved one, or dealing with current or future health problems related to being exposed to the toxic environment at the site, was not directly affected by 9/11, the same as i'm not directly affected by the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[QUOTE=Lary Ellis (Top);2207552]chipmonk
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,143

my children are far too young to be serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, so i am absolutely not as affected as any single one of the loved ones of those who are serving, and defer to them to mourn their losses as they see fit, as i am removed from direct involvement. if (GOD forbid) i ever have to mourn a loved one lost in battle, i would take the same tone with someone casting judgement, who was sitting comfortably at home without being directly involved, but maybe that's just my own personal set of values.

anyone not killed, injured, lost a loved one, or dealing with current or future health problems related to being exposed to the toxic environment at the site, was not directly affected by 9/11, the same as i'm not directly affected by the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Where you are wrong is by assuming that NONE of us on this forum lost family and friends on 9/11. I personally lost friends in both New York and the Pentagon and I do not minimize the personal suffering that ANY one else has dealt with because of that heinous attack.

As to Obamas actions, simply put I do not think it is out of line for me to expect a Presidential Candidate to act "Presidential" at a public display with the importance of that one.

Clearly McCain's Military background allowed him to show the proper restraint that Obama is incapable of because of his lack of experience. That should not have been so self evident as most politicians have advisers to instruct them in protocol before attending such an important public event.

For me it becomes an issue because should he become the next President, it only gets more important with each day he would be in office. I also agree that it is petty compared to other issues about him, but one that is glaring as to his lack of ability to man the job.

[QUOTE=crobtex;2207590]I am truly glad that your children are to young to go to war and hope they never have to.

Thank God, I do not have any close family members or friends that have been killed it the ME. I do have very close family and good friends that have been there, and some are going back. To the man/woman, they volunteered to join the military and every one believes that being in the ME is a necessity to keep tabs on the radicals that have sworn to kill us all. If I thought terrorist would would leave us alone and that radicals like Iran and others around the world would live happily-ever-after, I'd be the first to say to recall our troops.



please don't misunderstand my post- it's not about recalling the troops, but about my feelings and opinions being practically meaningless compared to the those directly involved.
IMHO my only job is to support and pray for the troops and their families, and grieve for those lost. my point was that being as that i'm not directly involved, if an outsider (i.e. a politician) was to go to mourn the fallen with their families, loved ones, and fellow soldiers, and did exactly the same as they did, it would absolutely not be my place to cast judgement on how they mourned. if that same politician did these things on his own, not following the lead of those directly involved, then i believe his actions are fair game for judgement and criticism.

it's one of the things i've grown to loathe about some staunch republicans- they seem to reserve the right to pass judgement on just about everything, even when they couldn't be more far removed from the situation.
sit thousands of miles away, and judge a situation that you have no first hand knowledge of, by a post in a diesel truck forum, or a picture circulated online, and even when pointed out that the conclusion you jumped to was incorrect, still insist that you know better (not you personally, but the more general 'you').

Kind of sounds like the staunch anti war democrats also.

Both sides of the isle have this problem but I have to agree with Top on this one. Just because others were doing it doesn't mean he souldn't show propper procedure. He is running to be the leader of the free world not mayor he should be going above and beyond to show respect.

[QUOTE=chipmonk;2207564]

Where you are wrong is by assuming that NONE of us on this forum lost family and friends on 9/11. I personally lost friends in both New York and the Pentagon and I do not minimize the personal suffering that ANY one else has dealt with because of that heinous attack.

Clearly McCain's Military background allowed him to show the proper restraint that Obama is incapable of because of his lack of experience. That should not have been so self evident as most politicians have advisers to instruct them in protocol before attending such an important public event.


i am sorry for your loss. that's what i mean about the distinction between those directly affected or not, and obviously you were directly affected.


your mention of McCain's military background (as well as your own) may help illustrate my point. this was a civilian event and Obama is a civilian, so he just followed the lead of other civilians (other politicians, mourners, fire, police, etc.), while McCain fell back on what he knows from his military background. while what McCain did looked better for the cameras (and might be more 'militarily correct'), what Obama did was perfectly in line with what the other mourners were doing, and although what they were doing might not have looked as good for the cameras, it's purpose was to respect the memories of the victims even more, by getting the flowers in the outline of the buildings where they perished, and where many of their remains were never recovered. what everyone will hopefully understand, is that what he did was not only considered as correct as what McCain did, but locally was considered by many even more correct because he understood what the directly affected mourners were trying to do, and didn't just fall back on 'standard mourning procedures'.

Kind of sounds like the staunch anti war democrats also.


absolutely, but i expect more from my own.
just like i'll never accept the excuse of 'you should see what the other kids are doing', as an excuse for bad behavior from my own children.

[QUOTE=Lary Ellis (Top);2207605]

i am sorry for your loss. that's what i mean about the distinction between those directly affected or not, and obviously you were directly affected.


your mention of McCain's military background (as well as your own) may help illustrate my point. this was a civilian event and Obama is a civilian, so he just followed the lead of other civilians (other politicians, mourners, fire, police, etc.), while McCain fell back on what he knows from his military background.

True but Obama is a candidate for the job of Commander In Chief, the leader of our Military and the free world. There is no excuse for him to not make sure that his actions are appropriate for the job he seeks.

As I stated he already has advisers on his payroll to make sure he understands what he needs to do in order to "look" the part he is pretending to be. Failure to do so is failing to show proper respect for the job which he is seeking.

In short if you want to be elected President, you better darn sure act like one or you won't get the votes.

I also disagree with you on another matter, I believe ALL Americans were affected directly by the events of 9/11.

I’ve been enjoying this thread immensely and have so far agreed with everything Chipmonk has said. He’s the only conservative that I have seen on this forum that is rational and reasonable and can abstain from the party line rhetoric.

Lary…..you say this……
I 100% support your right to disagree with anything I say here, your opinion is just as welcome as the rest of them...

And then in your very next post, go on to use the conservative tactic of …… Shame on you...............when he does express his opinion. I've seen you do this before on another thread. This is one of those conservative tactics that I see a lot from the right. When someone says or does something you don’t agree with, you thrust yourselves up on some moral high ground and attempt to shame others. I ask you, why should he be ashamed?

[QUOTE=chipmonk;2207625]

True but Obama is a candidate for the job of Commander In Chief, the leader of our Military and the free world. There is no excuse for him to not make sure that his actions are appropriate for the job he seeks.

As I stated he already has advisers on his payroll to make sure he understands what he needs to do in order to "look" the part he is pretending to be. Failure to do so is failing to show proper respect for the job which he is seeking.

In short if you want to be elected President, you better darn sure act like one or you won't get the votes.

if you're feelings about presidential actions not deviating for a given cicumstance are so set in stone, i hope you were just as outraged when President Bush (actual sitting president, not merely a candidate) and his advisors on his (our) payroll allowed him to venture on to the beach volleyball court at the Beijing Olympics dressed casually in a short sleeved shirt, and responded to Misty May Traynor sticking her butt out at him by slapping her on her bikini clad back.

or how neither the President or his advisors stopped him from donning an FDNY job shirt (part of an official city uniform, of which the President is neither an employee nor a member), when he appeared at Yankee Stadium to throw out the first pitch when the baseball season resumed after the attacks. now certainly anyone could say that while what he was doing was not technically appropriate (non fire personnel donning part of an official fire dept. uniform), he deviated from proper procedure to show special support for a local entity under special cicumstances- not unlike how trying to toss a rose into the footprint of the WTC deviated from what some would consider 'proper procedure' to show special support for the 9/11 victims under special circumstances.

[QUOTE=Lary Ellis (Top);2207639]
if you're feelings about presidential actions not deviating for a given cicumstance are so set in stone, i hope you were just as outraged when President Bush (actual sitting president, not merely a candidate) and his advisors on his (our) payroll allowed him to venture on to the beach vollyball court at the Beijing Olympics dressed casually in a short sleeved shirt, and respond to Misty May Traynor sticking her butt out at him by slapping her on her bikini clad back.

or how neither the President or his advisors stopped him from donning an FDNY job shirt (part of an official city uniform, of which the President is neither an employee nor a member), when he appeared at Yankee Stadium to throw out the first pitch when the baseball season resumed after the attacks. now certainly anyone could say that while what he was doing was not technically appropriate (non fire personnel donning part of an official fire dept. uniform), he deviated from proper procedure to show special support for a local entity under special cicumstances- not unlike how trying to toss a rose into the footprint of the WTC deviated from what some would consider 'proper procedure' to show special support for the 9/11 victims under special circumstances.

So I guess the President was supposed to be in 2 places at one time? I thought he was in Virginia at the Pentagon. As far as the back side slapping thing, I didn't ever see that, but I agree with you on that as being inappropriate.

What is the difference between the President wearing a FDNY shirt and a civilian wearing a pair of military issue camo pants that they bought from the surplus store? I think the President showing support for the FDNY by wearing a shirt, which he most likely got from the FDNY, is a non-issue. Just like Senator Obama tossing a rose into the footprint.

Weither anybody thought it was disrespectful or not, it is clear that everyone that was breathing on Sept 11 2001 was effected some way some how. I deal with loss different then anybody else on this planet. As I'm sure the Senator does also. So I think we owe it to the people that died that day and the Men and Women in the military every day after to stop and count our blessing and not worry about weither Senator Obama or President Bush are offending somebody by their actions.

Lary…..you say this……


I ask you, why should he be ashamed?

The post speaks entirely for itself... if you have any questions, read it again ;)

The fact that he removed his own post shows he knew how inappropriate it was, unfortunately I had already begun replying to it before he removed it.

[QUOTE=Lary Ellis (Top);2207639]
if you're feelings about presidential actions not deviating for a given cicumstance are so set in stone, i hope you were just as outraged when President Bush (actual sitting president, not merely a candidate) and his advisors on his (our) payroll allowed him to venture on to the beach vollyball court at the Beijing Olympics dressed casually in a short sleeved shirt, and respond to Misty May Traynor sticking her butt out at him by slapping her on her bikini clad back.

I can not comment on that as I did not see it.

or how neither the President or his advisors stopped him from donning an FDNY job shirt (part of an official city uniform, of which the President is neither an employee nor a member), when he appeared at Yankee Stadium to throw out the first pitch when the baseball season resumed after the attacks. now certainly anyone could say that while what he was doing was not technically appropriate (non fire personnel donning part of an official fire dept. uniform), he deviated from proper procedure to show special support for a local entity under special cicumstances

I fully support that decision, he was showing his solidarity and support for the FDNY as any President should following such a horrible event.

I see no similarities between that and Obamas actions what so ever.

[QUOTE=chipmonk;2207666]
I think the President showing support for the FDNY by wearing a shirt, which he most likely got from the FDNY, is a non-issue. Just like Senator Obama tossing a rose into the footprint.


exactly. they were each doing what they thought was right at the time, and were more concerned about supporting a city that took a big hit for the entire country, than what someone thousands of miles away considered the technically proper thing to do.

[QUOTE=Lary Ellis (Top);2207605]

i am sorry for your loss. that's what i mean about the distinction between those directly affected or not, and obviously you were directly affected.


your mention of McCain's military background (as well as your own) may help illustrate my point. this was a civilian event and Obama is a civilian, so he just followed the lead of other civilians (other politicians, mourners, fire, police, etc.), while McCain fell back on what he knows from his military background. while what McCain did looked better for the cameras (and might be more 'militarily correct'), what Obama did was perfectly in line with what the other mourners were doing, and although what they were doing might not have looked as good for the cameras, it's purpose was to respect the memories of the victims even more, by getting the flowers in the outline of the buildings where they perished, and where many of their remains were never recovered. what everyone will hopefully understand, is that what he did was not only considered as correct as what McCain did, but locally was considered by many even more correct because he understood what the directly affected mourners were trying to do, and didn't just fall back on 'standard mourning procedures'.

I hope we can keep him in that that status.
He can't cover his heart when the anthem is played either.
He has no class, or is intentionally thumbing his nose at the voters.

[QUOTE=chipmonk;2207666]


I see no similarities between that and Obamas actions what so ever.

not because the actions are dissimilar, but because you choose not to.

[QUOTE=diesel_burner;2207683]

exactly. they were each doing what they thought was right at the time, and were more concerned about supporting a city that took a big hit for the entire country, than what someone thousands of miles away considered the technically proper thing to do.

As I already stated, I disagree with you on this subject and I don't have to be standing next to him to see his flaws ;)

[QUOTE=Lary Ellis (Top);2207688]

not because the actions are dissimilar, but because you choose not to.

Your opinion, not mine... I see a world of difference. ;)

[QUOTE=chipmonk;2207693]

As I already stated, I disagree with you on this subject and I don't have to be standing next to him to see his flaws ;)

I think we may have 2 different subjects here. Lary, You don't agree with Senator Obama on what he did. And see something in him you don't like. Nothing wrong with that.

Chipmonk is, I think, talking about Sept 11 as a day and what Senator Obama did, or in fact what President Bush and Senator McCain did, is a non factor in what the day means to America and Americans.

This is the reason why you don't see eye 2 eye, because you have 2 different points you are trying to make.

This is a fun one.;)

[QUOTE=Lary Ellis (Top);2207699]

I think we may have 2 different subjects here. Lary, You don't agree with Senator Obama on what he did. And see something in him you don't like. Nothing wrong with that.

Chipmonk is, I think, talking about Sept 11 as a day and what Senator Obama did, or in fact what President Bush and Senator McCain did, is a non factor in what the day means to America and Americans.

This is the reason why you don't see eye 2 eye, because you have 2 different points you are trying to make.

This is a fun one.;)

Actually we are separated because Chipmonk makes the assumption that if you were not in the hole in Manhattan digging for body parts, then you were not directly involved and have no right to an opinion on Obamas actions.

I say that as Americans, we ALL were affected and have every right to our Opinion even if we are currently thousands of miles away.

The idea that being in one part of the country in some way minimizes my rights to an opinion as an American compared to someone in another part of the country to me is ludicrous and hence the reason we will never agree ;)

Chipmonk, I mostly agree with you, and share a fair amount of on the ground experience at the pile, along with dozens of funerals. However, I don't agree with your assessment of how others may have mourned, personally, I believe most every American lost something that day, whether they were directly involved or not, and most of the planet mourned with us as a whole. We should not expect people to understand it the way we do. I also believe we should not minimize how others may have felt and mourned. I understand how you feel about Obama tossing his flower and I agree with you. What most don't understand is that when we were there, people were tossing everything from a single rose to dozens at a time over the fences, they were just trying to put something they had on the ground their loved ones lay buried in. Remember the tens house?

Personally I don't think I will ever see, (in my life time), a time that this country had been as united as it was after that day.


With respect,


Tim

[QUOTE=Lary Ellis (Top);2207699]

I think we may have 2 different subjects here. Lary, You don't agree with Senator Obama on what he did. And see something in him you don't like. Nothing wrong with that.

Chipmonk is, I think, talking about Sept 11 as a day and what Senator Obama did, or in fact what President Bush and Senator McCain did, is a non factor in what the day means to America and Americans.

This is the reason why you don't see eye 2 eye, because you have 2 different points you are trying to make.

This is a fun one.;)
wow burner, you're good. my only 2 points have been:

1. don't politicize the day. it's meant to honor the fallen.

2. don't create something that isn't there, which ends up insulting the way that those directly affected by the attacks decide to mourn their dead. i state the fact that Obama tossed his rose into the memorial in the footprint of the tower like the Mayor and hundreds of mourners, so if that's somehow disrespectful, than all the other mourners were being disrespectful as well (which would be disrespecting their own loved ones). Lary's responses continue to include a slew of negative Obama stuff, even insinuating the i (a conservative republican) am trying to sway people to vote for him. this has nothing to do with Obama's qualifications (or lack thereof) for the presidency, or how he acquired his house, or his association with Jeremiah Wright, or anything else about him- it's about repecting the day, the people lost, and their families.

Chipmonk, I mostly agree with you, and share a fair amount of on the ground experience at the pile, along with dozens of funerals. However, I don't agree with your assessment of how others may have mourned, personally, I believe most every American lost something that day, whether they were directly involved or not, and most of the planet mourned with us as a whole. We should not expect people to understand it the way we do. I also believe we should not minimize how others may have felt and mourned. I understand how you feel about Obama tossing his flower and I agree with you. What most don't understand is that when we were there, people were tossing everything from a single rose to dozens at a time over the fences, they were just trying to put something they had on the ground their loved ones lay buried in. Remember the tens house?

Personally I don't think I will ever see, (in my life time), a time that this country had been as united as it was after that day.


With respect,


Tim

thank you Tim, maybe you're right. those who weren't there don't understand that it's not like the Viet Nam Memorial or the Memorial in Oklahoma City or even like a head stone in a cemetary- then it was a big steaming pile of rubble and now it's just a big pit.

i appreciate your post.

The more I think about it I can see where alot of people would come to the disrespect conclusion. He did sit in the same building with a "mentor" for 20yrs that said 9-11 was our fault, "our chickens coming home to roost". He has shown disrespect to our flag and traditions before and continues to do so. If you enter this argument with that in your mind You come to a different conclusion than if you just look at the one jesture of the day.

The more I think about it I can see where alot of people would come to the disrespect conclusion. He did sit in the same building with a "mentor" for 20yrs that said 9-11 was our fault, "our chickens coming home to roost". He has shown disrespect to our flag and traditions before and continues to do so. If you enter this argument with that in your mind You come to a different conclusion than if you just look at the one jesture of the day.

Bingo we have a winner!

I see it as just one more brick in the wall, even though it was really more of a chip than a whole brick ;)

Chipmonk, I mostly agree with you, and share a fair amount of on the ground experience at the pile, along with dozens of funerals. However, I don't agree with your assessment of how others may have mourned, personally, I believe most every American lost something that day, whether they were directly involved or not, and most of the planet mourned with us as a whole. We should not expect people to understand it the way we do. I also believe we should not minimize how others may have felt and mourned. I understand how you feel about Obama tossing his flower and I agree with you. What most don't understand is that when we were there, people were tossing everything from a single rose to dozens at a time over the fences, they were just trying to put something they had on the ground their loved ones lay buried in. Remember the tens house?

Personally I don't think I will ever see, (in my life time), a time that this country had been as united as it was after that day.


With respect,


Tim

Good post!

Lots of us saw things that will remain in our minds forever in the fight for freedom, and my heart goes out to everyone that worked that hellhole in NY along with those in PA and DC.

It was a bad time for ALL Americans and unfortunately far too many people are forgetting the attitudes that allowed that to happen. We MUST remain vigilant and never forget.

I know Chipmonk will never agree with how I see Obamas actions, but that's OK I don't mind that he has his own Opinion :)

I will point out that I don't feel the visit by McCain and Obama really had as much to do about 9/11 as it did Politics and a photo op. Sadly both sides use things like this to try and prop up their images.

Wow take a step back fellas. Have any of you been to a naval memorial, I have. We threw the flowers and reefs on to the water, from off of the ship. I really hope I was not being disrespectful.
We buried a friend and pilot dropped his ashes out of an airplane at 100 knots, about 1500feet AGL, I hope I was not disrespectful.
Come on you guys you are better than this. It is sad that the way a guy tosses a flower is what he is. I get the felling that when I read this post that I just dove into the shallow end of the pool.

[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] Hope your head don't hurt too bad!

Your experiences, to me, are totally different.

I want my ashes spread where there will be three feet of snow in the winter, and I hate cold weather. [laugh]

I don't think it was as much tossing the flower, but his pattern of behavior. And NO, I will not list them again as they have been listed several times already.


Wow take a step back fellas. Have any of you been to a naval memorial, I have. We threw the flowers and reefs on to the water, from off of the ship. I really hope I was not being disrespectful.
We buried a friend and pilot dropped his ashes out of an airplane at 100 knots, about 1500feet AGL, I hope I was not disrespectful.
Come on you guys you are better than this. It is sad that the way a guy tosses a flower is what he is. I get the felling that when I read this post that I just dove into the shallow end of the pool.

[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] Hope your head don't hurt too bad!

Your experiences, to me, are totally different.

I want my ashes spread where there will be three feet of snow in the winter, and I hate cold weather. [laugh]

I don't think it was as much tossing the flower, but his pattern of behavior. And NO, I will not list them again as they have been listed several times already.
What was his pattern of behavior? Are you some kind of expert in this, kindly show us your credentials.
What do you mean by "I hope your head don't hurt too bad" I am perplexed with your post.
The situation I have made note of where true friends of mine, and I do not take lite of this.

What was his pattern of behavior? Are you some kind of expert in this, kindly show us your credentials.
What do you mean by "I hope your head don't hurt too bad" I am perplexed with your post.
The situation I have made note of where true friends of mine, and I do not take lite of this.

I assure you Crobtexs comment was in reference to your dive in the shallow end comment, he was not making light of your situation ;)

Hey Crobtex I completely missed your point about the head thing.[duhhh] So I will ask for your forgiveness with my naivety . To answer your question of my head in the shallow end of pool. I survived thanks to a speacial E9er. To the E9er thanks bud.

Hey Crobtex I completely missed your point about the head thing.[duhhh] So I will ask for your forgiveness with my naivety . To answer your question of my head in the shallow end of pool. I survived thanks to a speacial E9er. To the E9er thanks bud.

No problem. :) I commend you for taking care of your friend and participating in a Naval Memorial.

[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] Hope your head don't hurt too bad!

Your experiences, to me, are totally different.

I want my ashes spread where there will be three feet of snow in the winter, and I hate cold weather. [laugh]

I don't think it was as much tossing the flower, but his pattern of behavior. And NO, I will not list them again as they have been listed several times already.


I can help you with the snow if you like. [laugh][laugh]


Tim

I can help you with the snow if you like. [laugh][laugh]


Tim

Thanks for the offer, but the occasional "trace" down here is all I want while I'm alive. :)

If you need a a hurricane, let me know. :o

Thanks for the offer, but the occasional "trace" down here is all I want while I'm alive. :)

If you need a a hurricane, let me know. :o


LOL, no thanks on the hurricane. Most of my family lives in the Fort Worth area, you guy's can keep the heat also. [laugh]



Tim

Hey Crobtex I completely missed your point about the head thing. So I will ask for your forgiveness with my naivety . To answer your question of my head in the shallow end of pool. I survived thanks to a speacial E9er. To the E9er thanks bud.

My pleasure ;)

E9er out! [laugh]

Wow take a step back fellas. Have any of you been to a naval memorial, I have. We threw the flowers and reefs on to the water, from off of the ship. I really hope I was not being disrespectful.
We buried a friend and pilot dropped his ashes out of an airplane at 100 knots, about 1500feet AGL, I hope I was not disrespectful.
Come on you guys you are better than this. It is sad that the way a guy tosses a flower is what he is. I get the felling that when I read this post that I just dove into the shallow end of the pool.

In this respect, it is difficult for one to step off a ship into the water and set the flower on a floating memorial. You also surely dont expect to jump out of the plane, hit the ground, and then scatter the ashes. Those are specialty memorials, not a land based one where you can walk up to... So no, I dont find your cases disrespectful at all.

When a memorial is within arms reach, theres no reason not to bend over and place it on the memorial. This may be how one is raised, or it may be personal beliefs. Who knows.

It has the same comparison as a casket at a funeral and a gravestone in a cemetary. Would the same person, when walking up to a casket of a loved one throw the rose on the casket? Throw the rose at a headstone? Probably not. Perhaps Obama has done that to graves of people he knew who he has visited. We don't know.

Like mentioned before in this thread... It can all be personal opinion.

But I dont think any of us would like to know that when we pass, that someone who says they love us and all we stand for, wont take the effort to gently place a flower on our resting place or memorial.

But then again, as Top mentioned, it's no surprise, knowing this man turns his back on the flag, refused to wear an American pin nor covers his heart.

It seems like he is all about change. Changing American values, changing respect and changing what we believe to be socially acceptable.

And to the one who commented about "my politician is better than yours"... its not about that. Its my politician is more loving, caring, respecting, and honoring than yours.

If that makes him better or not, is all in your personal view if thats what you yourself believe in and look up to.

Personally, I admire respect.

Very good post. :)

In this respect, it is difficult for one to step off a ship into the water and set the flower on a floating memorial. You also surely dont expect to jump out of the plane, hit the ground, and then scatter the ashes. Those are specialty memorials, not a land based one where you can walk up to... So no, I dont find your cases disrespectful at all.

When a memorial is within arms reach, theres no reason not to bend over and place it on the memorial. This may be how one is raised, or it may be personal beliefs. Who knows.

It has the same comparison as a casket at a funeral and a gravestone in a cemetary. Would the same person, when walking up to a casket of a loved one throw the rose on the casket? Throw the rose at a headstone? Probably not. Perhaps Obama has done that to graves of people he knew who he has visited. We don't know.

Like mentioned before in this thread... It can all be personal opinion.

But I dont think any of us would like to know that when we pass, that someone who says they love us and all we stand for, wont take the effort to gently place a flower on our resting place or memorial.

But then again, as Top mentioned, it's no surprise, knowing this man turns his back on the flag, refused to wear an American pin nor covers his heart.

It seems like he is all about change. Changing American values, changing respect and changing what we believe to be socially acceptable.

And to the one who commented about "my politician is better than yours"... its not about that. Its my politician is more loving, caring, respecting, and honoring than yours.

If that makes him better or not, is all in your personal view if thats what you yourself believe in and look up to.

Personally, I admire respect.

When a memorial is within arms reach, theres no reason not to bend over and place it on the memorial.


being as that you must have been there, to know that the building footprints were in arms reach (which i assure you were not), why did McCain not place his rose in the building footprints- was he being disrespectful, or are you just basing your comments on what you saw from a video clip on the news?

being as that you must have been there, to know that the building footprints were in arms reach (which i assure you were not), why did McCain not place his rose in the building footprints- was he being disrespectful, or are you just basing your comments on what you saw from a video clip on the news?


HUH? What would you call the structure all of the other flowers were lying on?

HUH? What would you call the structure all of the other flowers were lying on?

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that would be the outside of the memorial, not the footprints of the buildings!
truely amazing that you're lecturing me about the memorial from what you saw on your tv/computer screen. kinda like when Obama lectured others about what was going on in Iraq, when he had not been there yet....... wait a minute..... could it be that you and Sen. Obama share some of the same qualities?????? :confused:

being as that you must have been there, to know that the building footprints were in arms reach (which i assure you were not), why did McCain not place his rose in the building footprints- was he being disrespectful, or are you just basing your comments on what you saw from a video clip on the news?


From what I understand, you're trying to say where on the memorial it landed holds higher value than how it was placed?

In that case, if i throw a flower at a printed picture on headstone, is that more valuable than gently laying it across the corner?

I am basing my comments on what I saw in the video clip. What are you basing yours on?

I am basing my comments on what I saw in the video clip. What are you basing yours on?

seeing it myself.

So if you saw it yourself, you probably saw the exact same thing I did. A presidential candidate, dangling a rose at his side as he walked and talked, then throwing it upon the memorial. Wheras the other candidate, held it upright and gently layed it down at the memorial.

Did you see something different than that?

Wow! What come back.....?

It does not matter if was or was not a footprint of the buildings.......IT WAS THE DESIGNATED PLACE TO SHOW RESPECT FOR THOSE THAT DIED on 9-11!

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh that would be the outside of the memorial, not the footprints of the buildings!
truely amazing that you're lecturing me about the memorial from what you saw on your tv/computer screen. kinda like when Obama lectured others about what was going on in Iraq, when he had not been there yet....... wait a minute..... could it be that you and Sen. Obama share some of the same qualities?????? :confused:

So if you saw it yourself, you probably saw the exact same thing I did. A presidential candidate, dangling a rose at his side as he walked and talked, then throwing it upon the memorial. Wheras the other candidate, held it upright and gently layed it down at the memorial.

Did you see something different than that?

what was being used as a temporary memorial at the site (after 7 years the city, local developers and dozens of other groups are still fighting over the what, how, where, and who gets what at the site- nice, huh), was a circular pond-like thing with two outlines of the buildings within it (that you probably couldn't see on tv).

some memorials have traditions that are unique to that individual one, like people tracing the names of the fallen at the Viet Nam Memorial, or people writing down prayers then sticking the piece of paper in the cracks of the Wailing Wall. because so many victims were pulverized/vaporized during the explosion, fire, and collapse of the Towers, and there were no remains to recover, many mourners try to put their flowers or whatever they bring as a token of their respects within the actual areas of where the buildings stood (or areas that are supposed to represent them), because for many that is the only place where even trace amounts of their remains lay.

that's why Sen. Obama and NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg followed this tradition (and the lead of the countless mourners who had already done the same before them) by tossing their roses, not just into the memorial, but into the outline of the Towers themselves, which was not reachable by just placing them in the memorial. thanks to Tim, i realize that many who weren't there don't realize many of these things that are unique to the circumstances of the WTC attack, and the way the dead are mourned.

if you read this post and now realize why certain things are done a certain way, and it's certainly not a sign of disrespect, i'm glad i could clarify it for you- if you're so self righteous that you refuse to admit that there are things in this world that you don't understand, even when your exposure to these things consists only of watching a video clip on the news, than that's something that you and those in your life have to deal with and accept- not me.

I'm glad you finally justified your answer......to yourself.


what was being used as a temporary memorial at the site (after 7 years the city, local developers and dozens of other groups are still fighting over the what, how, where, and who gets what at the site- nice, huh), was a circular pond-like thing with two outlines of the buildings within it (that you probably couldn't see on tv).

some memorials have traditions that are unique to that individual one, like people tracing the names of the fallen at the Viet Nam Memorial, or people writing down prayers then sticking the piece of paper in the cracks of the Wailing Wall. because so many victims were pulverized/vaporized during the explosion, fire, and collapse of the Towers, and there were no remains to recover, many mourners try to put their flowers or whatever they bring as a token of their respects within the actual areas of where the buildings stood (or areas that are supposed to represent them), because for many that is the only place where even trace amounts of their remains lay.

that's why Sen. Obama and NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg followed this tradition (and the lead of the countless mourners who had already done the same before them) by tossing their roses, not just into the memorial, but into the outline of the Towers themselves, which was not reachable by just placing them in the memorial. thanks to Tim, i realize that many who weren't there don't realize many of these things that are unique to the circumstances of the WTC attack, and the way the dead are mourned.

if you read this post and now realize why certain things are done a certain way, and it's certainly not a sign of disrespect, i'm glad i could clarify it for you- if you're so self righteous that you refuse to admit that there are things in this world that you don't understand, even when your exposure to these things consists only of watching a video clip on the news, than that's something that you and those in your life have to deal with and accept- not me.

I'm glad you finally justified your answer......to yourself.



thank you for illustrating my point.



....... if you're so self righteous that you refuse to admit that there are things in this world that you don't understand, even when your exposure to these things consists only of watching a video clip on the news, than that's something that you and those in your life have to deal with and accept- not me.

So if you saw it yourself, you probably saw the exact same thing I did. A presidential candidate, dangling a rose at his side as he walked and talked, then throwing it upon the memorial. Wheras the other candidate, held it upright and gently layed it down at the memorial.

Did you see something different than that?

That's what I saw and nobody can tell me otherwise. I am quite capable of looking at a situation and determining what to make of it. I realize not everyone will see it the same way...but they are welcome to their opinion just as I am mine.

There are those that think I do not have the right to believe what I saw and that I should instead believe "Their" interpretation of the scenario, all I can say is they are wasting their time.

I of course feel they have the right to interpret it any way they choose with out me labeling them "self righteous" and they should allow me the same simple courtesy :)

There are actually some good points in this thread, though they are tough to see through all the urinary olympics.

Personally, I think BO's lack of decorum at the ceremony was not so much for a lack of respect (though he *does* seem to have known behaviors which would cause him to forfeit any benefit of the doubt). Rather, I think it's more just general cluelessness.

Watching BO and JM side by side on the ceremony illustrates the difference between experience and naivete. It's almost like the redneck that finds himself in front of the Queen of England--he's out of his element and will no doubt commit a gaffe.

BO has no military experience. He'd have to watch on instructional video to have a clue as to how to behave in ceremonies of this kind. Frankly, this are the kinds of things that only people in *leadership* positions in the public sector generally get experience with.

So I can see how there is an element of "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks" and given BOs associations and conduct, the suspicions of his conduct may be justified.


But I think that Chipmonk makes a valid point about making a mountain out of a molehill, so to speak. The Republicans have demonstrated lately that they are becoming almost democrat-like in their playing of the political game, looking for "gotchas" and such. Exhibit A for me is the "lipstick" deal where a common country reference becomes an "attack".

I can't remember the last time Republicans were so thin-skinned and almost whiny.

Yes, the media is in the tank for BO. Yes, they are hypocrites. Yes, BO is proof that the Dems are dominated by leftist kooks for whom style matters while substance does not. Yes, there's a double standard.

Get over it and get out there and win.

jmo

That's what I saw and nobody can tell me otherwise. I am quite capable of looking at a situation and determining what to make of it. I realize not everyone will see it the same way...but they are welcome to their opinion just as I am mine.



Don't you hate that? Telling you, you didn't see what you saw? Like in another thread, that you're being brain washed and succoming to fear mongering. You're not capable of thinking for yourself. That's what that party is all about. You cannot be trusted to take care of yourself, defend yourself or run your own household. The government must take care of you or be involved in some manner. I'm fully capable of recognizing when I'm being fed a line, and realize they make their best effort to tell you exactly what you want to hear. That's why they're called politicians. But just because I don't jump on the wagon for change, don't say that I am still for gay bashing, full auto rockets, drinking and driving trucks or whatever, I just buy the other guys story even less and feel his politics fill my needs or wants even less so. I have been trained by 2 levels of gov't. on reading peoples mannerisms/body language, to handle expensive gov't. equipment, and be trusted with peoples lives. I'm certainly not about to vote for a party that feels that I and others like me, are still not capable of making our own decisions.