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View Full Version : Multi-Hole injectors


Don M
10-06-2002, 09:12 PM
Here is a quick photo of some injectors (14 hole in this case, but not all) I have been working on for the Cummins and other engines since last winter. <br>I have done limited engine testing with them, but tons of computer modeling using some very serious software and hardware (a 17 processor super computer). <br>Several sets (about 25 now) have been built and are still being engine tested.<br>I have run them in my truck for the past six months on and off and have had great results. Others in the biz are testing them too with very good results. <br>Working out all the details i.e. (finding machinist that can hold very tight tolerances, getting flow rates and injection pressures consistant, comprehensive tornado and swirl studies, flame front propagation, etc) has been very exhaustive. <br><br>Several things are/were learned and the road has been very rocky. From having parts or components come back to me destroyed by incompetent machine shops, having experienced a complete injector failure from tip breakage( inherent weakness from punching additional holes in a small area), having manufactures stall and change delivery dates, change prices, etc. <br><br>All the problems with durability are dealt with and the production problems are coming together. <br><br>Some members are aware of the project and some vendors are feverishly trying to come to market with the same ideas. I hope the failures are not experienced by them as they were with me.<br><br>Don~<br>

GSchlegel
10-06-2002, 09:53 PM
Don,<br><br>Figured you were up to something, I think I remember some pictures about a year ago where you were poping some fuel through injectors. This is a fantastic picture. Keep us up to date on your progress.<br><br>Gene

Don M
10-06-2002, 10:09 PM
Gene,<br><br>Katdiesel is in your neighborhood I believe. Give him a yell, he has a set on the way soon. Most of the sets I have done lean toward the super high performance specs, but some are for everyday drivers that make more HP and have a reduced smoke level over honed nozzles. <br>The first set I tested in a 12 valve made 70 more HP and less smoke than the 370 marines.<br><br>Don~<br><br>

Bart Timothy
10-07-2002, 01:16 AM
I heard about a project Piers was doing along the same lines - doubling the holes in 275s. The theory sounded great. You've got my attention!

hellotbone
10-07-2002, 06:30 AM
If your looking for a tester PM me look at my sig Im up for anything!

GSchlegel
10-07-2002, 08:57 AM
Don,<br><br>Should be seeind Kat on the 26th at the MWTDR get together. I'll talk to him then.<br><br>Gene

Rammin On
10-07-2002, 09:34 AM
Don ...<br><br>Interesting injectors .. how many tip failures have you had?<br><br>Keith

10-07-2002, 10:13 AM
With 14 holes in the tip, how much &quot;interhole&quot; space is on these injectors????<br>Seems like a potential failure spot.

BigBlue
10-07-2002, 10:50 AM
What about fuel mileage? it seems that with that many holes, fuel mileage would go down.

Extreme Diesel
10-07-2002, 11:36 AM
So are you selling them, or what? ???

If you can make me a set of 10 hole injectors, I would be interested. I want a set of 215 injectors with 10 holes, and the 5 additional holes 10% larger and at a 140 degree spray angle. Send me a pm with the cost.

Don M
10-07-2002, 04:09 PM
Keith,<br><br>I have only had one failure myself. A collegue has had one as well. His chewed up some internals pretty bad. Engine required teardown. I have the problem solved with a modification to the nozzles and with the ones I am having manufactured the problem is not even a remote possibility.<br><br>Fuel mileage will go down with any performnace upgrade like this if you keep your foot on the floor. I wont speak to flow rates or rate of discharge curves, but they wont be any worse on economy than a honed injector would.<br><br>Extreme Diesel,<br><br>I dont have any with the specs you asked for.<br><br>Don~<br>

fj40charles
10-07-2002, 04:13 PM
Hey Don,<br><br>Great looking injectors and great photo. Is this the trend in nozzle technology? I wonder if others will be doing this too?<br><br>Charles

Battering Ram
10-07-2002, 05:16 PM
Others alredy are. A bird told me they will be on the market in a month. Power levels from mild to Bully Dog 8 power levels. No I'm not going to say which bird.

Don M
10-07-2002, 05:31 PM
Charles,

There are so many developments in diesel combustion technology I dont know where they will all go. The HCCI (homogenous charged compression ignition)engine is begining to cause a few wrinkles with designers for by-product reasons too. Multi-hole nozzles are generally reserved for low swirl engines and the lower hole nozzles are for the higher swirl engines traditionally. Too many events take place in the combustion chamber to quickly type it out, but my reason is not by-product related. I was/am after performance for the most part. Although, I can build a set of nozzles that are not honed and get the same performance with less smoke. No cylinder wash down and less hot and cool zones caused by nozzles holes that are super large and tend to extinguish the growing and continually burning flame front. Not to mention the super big injectors have a horendous rate of discharge curve that drop the injection pressure too fast in many cases. This is not good because the spray cannot penetrate the voilent events inside the chamber going on during air/fuel mixing. Folks after EPA licensing wont want these in their 5.9 litre engine, thats for sure.

Its still a bunch of fuel, just a higher quality charge that can burn more completely from better atomization, improved discharge curves, and accurate needle seating.

Don~

DieselDaze
10-07-2002, 05:52 PM
Don... Thats cool!<br> :o<br>I like the pic! Looking at the preasure exurted from that nozzle, I can understand when you say tip failure was a concern! <br><br>Keep up the work... and keep us posted!<br><br><br>Rich<br>

JHansen
10-07-2002, 07:58 PM
Extremely cool injectors Don! I'm gonna drop you an email here to discuss them a little more.......I am intrigued!<br><br>Jason<br>

10-07-2002, 08:10 PM
Without revealing trade data, can you tell us anything about metallurgy? It seems to me that there's where you would've solved the fatigue/failure problem. <br><br>GP

Extreme Diesel
10-07-2002, 11:05 PM
well what do you have?

Don M
10-07-2002, 11:42 PM
I have a 6, 10 and 12 hole nozzle for the 12 valvers using the swirl factor of 3.5 and above like yours. Kinda like below.<br><br>Don~

Bart Timothy
10-08-2002, 01:41 AM
Don, what do you have for the ETH? I'd like something along the lines of a general purpose high performance injector, along the lines of a DD3, for example.

KatDiesel
10-08-2002, 07:39 AM
Can't wait to get my hands on mine 8)<br><br>I hope to have them dynoed/track tested Oct 25th Gene if all goes well.

1dslram
10-08-2002, 12:24 PM
Very interesting Don, I would be interested I presently have the 370s installed and if I could get more HP and less smoke that has to be the perfect combo. If I can help please let me know? Now all I need is the $.<br>Bruce

10-08-2002, 02:21 PM
Tin, plastic, wood, titanium, 2830 grade stainless steel, base-stock pot metal? What are they made out of? That tip failure thing is still a concern. :D <br><br>GP

777 MECHANIC
10-08-2002, 03:08 PM
Eric, we will be testing your injectors in my truck to see what kind of numbers they will through down. I know our HP/TQ numbers were very similar in Lewisville. <br>Cant wait to get my set. AARRGG! ;D ;D

BigBlue
10-08-2002, 05:04 PM
AutoCAD. Man I remember that. Drew a Ferd LSD for a 7.5&quot; axle in that class. All in 3-d. Assembled, disassembled, orthographic. It's a sweet looking deal. Almost went to state in the competition but judge changed his mind at the last second. I was ******. The other guy was even missing a page. Oh well. Those injectors look pretty sweet. Can't wait till I can get some. By the time I can get em though, they'll probably be extinct and some other new type of injector will be out.

KatDiesel
10-08-2002, 05:19 PM
<br>Eric, we will be testing your injectors in my truck to see what kind of numbers they will through down. I know our HP/TQ numbers were very similar in Lewisville. <br>Cant wait to get my set. AARRGG! ;D ;D<br><br><br>I know Don told me......y'all just need to hurry up :) I'd like to have them in by Oct 25th and take them to the track.<br><br>SO hurry up already Hehe I'm dyning to see how they run

willyslover
10-08-2002, 05:23 PM
Don..Is testing being done for higher altitude with higher HP [well above 400] with your pattern / hole design [I hope]<br>am very interested to see any results for that use.

Extreme Diesel
10-08-2002, 05:53 PM
Compound turbos are right around the corner. Some extreme fire hoses are in order. Send me a pm with the cost and why yours are better than 370 injectors that are balanced and have the breaking pressure set to 310 bar. More fuel is not necessary. I can already add enough fuel to make hp go DOWN by a significant margin. A faster and more complete burn is what I'm after.

drawson
10-08-2002, 06:18 PM
Don, Hey buddy old pal, let's talk. I'm at High altitude and above 400 HP. PM or E-mail me...

J.R. Adkins
10-08-2002, 08:40 PM
Quote<br>More fuel is not necessary. I can already add enough fuel to make hp go DOWN by a significant margin. A faster and more complete burn is what I'm after. <br><br>Extreme Diesel,<br>Are you running a single charger? A p-pump can put out enough fuel to put the &quot;fire&quot; out on a set of twins. I have twins and can hit 90+ psi with injectors that are 400% larger than 215's. And I am pushing over 2.5 times more fuel than stock through my pump. And i can still clear up my smoke on the top end!! I NEED MORE FUEL!!! :'( <br><br>I guess you need more air!! ;D

Extreme Diesel
10-08-2002, 09:28 PM
Yes, only one lil turbo. What pump are you running?

J.R. Adkins
10-09-2002, 04:23 PM
913

Extreme Diesel
10-09-2002, 05:22 PM
and you CAN'T get enough fuel out of it? ??? What rack stop cap do you have?

TxDieselKid
10-09-2002, 05:39 PM
I hear Piers is working on something simular as well. As I see it the more the marrier!!!

CC,
I think JR is pulling your leg, remember he has over 500hp. But there always is the P-8100... :o [eyecrazy] :o [eyecrazy]

Andrew

Sled Puller
10-09-2002, 07:04 PM
<br>Keith,<br><br>I have only had one failure myself. A collegue has had one as well. His chewed up some internals pretty bad. Engine required teardown. I have the problem solved with a modification to the nozzles and with the ones I am having manufactured the problem is not even a remote possibility.<br><br>Don~<br><br><br><br>AS I have said in the past I would like to break 600 with stock 370's. But that picture, and the 70hp gain has me reconsidering!!!(greed)<br>As always, I am concerned with life span. The tips have me nervous.<br><br>&quot;Not even a remote possibility&quot; sounds good, and is what I want to hear, but what proof do you have that they are that indestructable?<br>Gene<br>

Don M
10-09-2002, 09:46 PM
Everyones concern on broken tips is well warranted. After I experienced the problem I went to work to deal with the trouble. I have identified several ways to deal with it since May this year. The process I use actually increases the long term wearability over 450%. The material is stronger and tougher than it was from Bosch and has a structural integrity higher than what you got from the factory. There are three seperate processes to get them ready. <br><br>With the nozzles I had manufactured the problem is dealt with through a new design and a differing material used to construct them.<br><br>Part of the delay in getting these nozzles ready sooner was from having to deal with the tip breakage. I felt the failure rate of 2 out of 150 nozzles was very high. The tractor pullers deal with broken tips more than many folks know, but they use rather large holes in their nozzles. Not even additional holes in most cases. Just modified nozzles that have very large holes. Either way, the problem was/is real and just punching holes and running injectors can cause the user some heartburn later. <br><br>Don~<br>

fj40charles
10-10-2002, 08:36 AM
Don,<br><br>Keep up the great work! We're eagerly waiting to see the dyno results...<br><br>Charles

gitchesum
10-10-2002, 08:19 PM
I think Don needs someone to test these injectors in this coastal climate we got down here in Houston. :)<br><br>Good job Don. Lemme know if I can help.