toupee

Hey all,

2005 2500 48re ~16,000 miles

Many of you might have already experienced what I'm gonna hollar about here, but I'm gonna say it anyways.
So, a little over a week ago my truck started idling rough and wanting to die at idle. I noticed through my Q-zilla Commander that my rail pressure was 20k + at idle.
I am the type to try and fix something myself first and only use a dealer or warranty as a last resort, so I did some searching on here and tried cleaning my COV. That didn't help. So then I tried looking at my FCA. When I took it off it looked all rusty and then didn't seem to work when I tested it out. I thought, "I might have found the problem." I also thought, "Well, this should be a warranty job".
I called a local dealer and told him what the truck was doing and what I thought might be the problem. He replied with "Have you changed the fuel filter?". I said "Yeah, I change the oil every 7500 miles and the fuel filter every 15,000".

*** Here's where the aggravation starts ***

He said, "What brand did you use?". I said "Napa". He said "Cummins has stated that any other brand of filter than Mopar, Cummins, or Fleetguard used anywhere on your engine will void your warranty."
What kind of crap is that? First off, it isn't printed anywhere in my manual. It says that if the part is the direct cause of the failure then the warranty will be voided, but not just USING a third party's part will void your warranty.
Secondly, just how many people do you think this kind of ignorance affects? Most backyard mechanics out there will go to the local auto store and buy the parts to do their routine maintenance. Just think about how many people that would have meant have "voided" their warranty. Basically, they are saying " You don't have any options, you have to do it our way or else." Irregardless of whether the part that the consumer is buying is the EXACT SAME spec-wise as the OEM part or not.
Another problem I have here comes from my standpoint as a small business owner. My fleet includes vehicles from Peterbuilt, Kenworth, GMC, Freightliner, Ford, Dodge, Chevy, and at one point even Honda. Given that diverse a selection of vehicles I don't have the option most of the time to always run one of them to the closest "Certified Service Center" for routine maintenance or to pick up parts. My closest Pete and Kenworth Dealers are an hour + away and I need those trucks EVERY day. So, my business has used local mechanics for general service for 50 years or so. All the mechanics I've ever dealt with get their parts primarily from Napa. Some from Carquest, Autozone, etc. So I am as a business owner now faced with either losing lots of money in downtime and travel expense getting my work done and parts at the official place, or voiding my warranty by having the work done locally.

OK. I'm done. That's all I have.

PS I took a FCA off another Dodge I have, put it on mine and it runs fine now. So I was right about that being the problem.

ronc

Pardon my ignorance but what is a FCA?

toupee

Fuel control actuator. It's just a solenoid mounted to the CP3 that opens or closes to allow fuel through to pump. Mine was stuck open letting too much fuel through all the time. That caused the high rail pressures.
Another thing, someone had said a while back that they contacted bosch and a rep said the injectors are capable of withstanding 26k psi for extended periods of time, yet I had someone tell me that the 20k pressures would ruin them. Does anyone on these boards REALLY know.

cdennyb

I'd have to read that crap about any other filter brand voiding my warranty from Cummins. That's B.S. in the most blatent form.

ClFuller

Regarding the B.S., this has been beaten around many times. Read this little article then shove either up, or down.... as the mood fits, your "dealer's" respective parts that would fit the up or down.... Basically, it has to be proven(that might be strong saying proven, but indicated might fit) that the "third party" part caused the damage that you're currently suffering from. http://elantragtclub.tripod.com/elantra/id177.html Then tell him to bite it. He's been trained to know better.

CD in NM

Since the relief valve on the rail has a pressure limit somewhere right around 26K, I would guess that it is designed to relieve pressure below the operational threshold of possible failure of an injector/rail itself. Or at least that is what should be it's functional purpose. If you read the threads regarding the rail pressure relief valve, it seems to have some variance from vehicle to vehicle in it's 'calibrated' opening point, or possible that may actually be a notation of the differences in gauge accuracy?? They tend to stick open and require replacing due to that failure aspect.

I do my own maintenance, so I buy filters a case at a time to have them on hand. I actually purchase the Fleetguards-Stratapore, as they provide the best filtration over the stock recommended fleetguard filter. I use the 5-micron Baldwin filter in the cannister, so I would probably get into a scuffle with my dealerhip over this filter being as it is not on their recommended list. As I see it, that's what an attorney is for when they refuse a warranty coverage over an aftermarket product that is actually a better performer that their stuff. I would quickly point out to them that you are well within you legal rights according to the Moss-Mag act. I also have the GDP 2-micron filtering, that probably would set them off regaring the fuel system as a whole, but I AM using a Fleetguard filter there as well, so it would be a legal battle anyway.

I would try taking the failed part to them and at least get them to replace the part under the warranty. I do not believe they can tell you that covering it is only if they do the work/replacement/diagnosis part of determining it was the culpret in your problems. On the road, repairs happen, dealerships and the timing don't always suit their hours of operation, the warranty also covers a reimbursement process for this stuff too.

Sorry to hear that you have the same issues with your dealership that many of the rest of us do. I too am a small business owner, if I were to run my business with the mindset that Dodge runs theirs I would be out of business, I still can't figure out why they are still around?? Must have to do with the fact that most of us do our own work and chalk it up to a basis necessity of ownership. If in the future I buy another Dodge, after the salesman gives me the 'best' number he can, I'm going to get them to also then discount the warranty out of the picture since it really has NO value and does not play a very good role dollar for dollar.

CD

toupee

Thanks for the replies guys. It's good to know I'm not alone in my grief.
CD in NM - My thought process runs about the same as yours on the injectors. I had also thought of the relief valve pressures.

Since I'm throwing around questions that I have brought up before that had no answers, I'm going to put this one forward again. I know it's off topic, but oh well.
Anyone that is a member around here knows that there are all kinds of kits and do it yourself methods available to mess with the low pressure fuel supply to a 3rd gen cummins. My question is this. Is it really necessary? I have seen the fuel pressure on one of my trucks drop to zero with no decrease in performance. I assume the cp3 starts sucking in more than the stock lift pump provides. If the pump will self feed itself by vacuum, then why do we need all these lift pump kits? GM's don't even have lift pumps. The only thing I can think of is that without a lift pump, then you are out of luck on a cummins if you run out of gas as there is no manual primer. Has anyone ever had a cp3 fail because of lack of lift pump pressure? Whether positive or negative pressure, the fuel would still doing its lubricating/cooling jobs on the pump I would think.

CD in NM

Hey toupee.

As far as the fuel pressure from the in-tank lift pump to the CP3, it BY DESIGN was supposed to be a low pressure supply at a given VOLUME of gph. Dodge has pretty much made statements regarding this volume stuff being what it should be all about when you try to ponder how the system functions.

Having worked around a lot of pumps in my life, I know that if/when a pump has to struggle with incoming supply to produce its designed output, that first on the list IS a lesser output because of the supply AND continued lesseded supply in the overall shortens the life of the pump. There are several contributing factors to that statement, but for the most part and when considering the whole BASIC function, I'll jut leave it saying that the supply does impact the pump. As far as supply pressure going to sero, there is supposedly enough volume at zero not to affect performance, and you have already experienced that there is some truth to that statement/proposed conclusion. As far as an aftermarket pump being the only solution to the supply issue, I would wonder IF just by moving to/installing larger fuel likes like the big line kits, if that alone might not be sufficient to see the volume rise sufficiently as to not starve the CP3 and possibly stop decreaing it's life span or creating it's failures?? Of course, when you do not increase the power of the lift pump and you increase the line diameter you probably would see the same, possibly slightly less, fuel pressure - but you would have increased the volume to some degree. I also believe that taking out the AIR issues in the fuel is the greater contributing factor to both helping the pump function and injector/rail function. There have been reports of down line CP3 failure after lift pump failure, there are threads here that DO discuss that scenario, but no one was/is able to be completely sure the CP3 failure happened BECAUSE the lift pump was not doing it's job. That has been entirely speculation based on a mechanical viewpoint, just like the discussion I am presenting.

You are correct in that the fuel would still be lubricating/cooling, but a lesser supply volume would to some extent also be a lesser lubricating/cooling situation, or at least that premise would make some kind of sense.

Of all the aftermarket pump/filtering scenarios that could be installed, I am leaning toward the Air Dog because of it's double capabilities. At this point in time the Air Dog would be my choice if/when I decide to install anything.

CD

DBLR

From the info one person posted over on Cummins forum in regards to fuel filters that a lot of them don’t meet Cummins filtering specifications. IIRC only Baldwin met or exceeded Cummins specifications for a fuel/water separator filter. I do know that some manufactures are still selling 10-micron fuel filters, yet both Cummins and Dodge require a 7-micron. I asked Autozone the other day if the fuel filters they sold were both a fuel & water separator and 7 micron they told me NO, we only need 10 micron and they had no clue about the water separator part. BTW, you can use any filter you want to but you have to make sure it meets or exceeds all Cummins/Dodge specifications. I’ve also heard that Cummins is now getting a lot stricker about the filters be used on their engines when it comes to warranty work/repair.

Hounddog

Bosche recomended filter was 5 micron for several YEARS while DODGE was using 10 in all new trucks.In fact it was 5 micron in 03!

Rednecktastic

I use the 7 micron fleetguard from Genos.


I went in to get some new wipers because the stock ones were streaking bad... They wrote down my tire size and probably recorded it, nuts huh?

I avoid them now even if I have stuff that needs fixing.

I'm thinking this will be the last dodge I buy.

vzdude

Maybe they just liked the looks of your tires? Just 'cause you aren't paranoid, doesn't mean everyone isn't out to get you!

Rednecktastic

You mean to say... Just because I'm paranoid everyone isn't out to get me .

And you are probably right.

I really wish they'd just give you a price break and only give like a 12K miles warranty or something... If that was an option I'd take it.

mitternocht

Hopefully the guy just liked your tires and was noting the size so he could get some from his truck. Sadly you may have a mark on your record now at that dealership.

One of the dealerships around here sent guys down to the track to collect license plate numbers on cars in case they came in for warranty work. The “kids” at the track started putting duct tape on their tags in response.

toupee

That's interesting that Dodge used 10 micron filters. When did they stop? I would love to know what size particles can actually clog an injector. I suppose build up over time could clog them no matter what size the matter causing the build up is.
Any guesses as to why my FCA was rusted and failed when it had never been removed and exposed only to DODGE filters for 15000 of my 15900 miles? And no, my water in fuel light has never been on.