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View Full Version : Legal To Run The Red Stuff!!!


csramsey640
09-06-2005, 10:21 AM
Just read this from the IRS, its only until Sept 15th, but any little bit helps

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=147221,00.html

infidel
09-06-2005, 10:36 AM
It's still only legal to run red on-road if you pay the taxes.
You're not getting a tax break, the rule is just to compensate if there are shortages of clear fuel.
The temporary exemption makes it easier to cheat but you are still cheating.

Fronty Owner
09-06-2005, 10:39 AM
This penalty relief is available to any person that sells or uses dyed fuel for highway use. In the case of the operator of the vehicle in which the dyed fuel is used, the relief is available only if the operator or the person selling the fuel pays the tax of 24.4 cents per gallon. Guess whos responsibility it is to make sure this has been paid.

csramsey640
09-06-2005, 10:50 AM
I guess it would pay for me to read the whole article, wouldnt it.

ds1rider
09-06-2005, 10:54 AM
My understanding was is that they will charge the tax, but if they don't, then no fine.

jthorpe
09-06-2005, 10:56 AM
I'd stay far away from that stuff if I were you guys. You do have to pay the tax on it, and you are only allowed to use it when other supplies have run out.

infidel
09-06-2005, 11:30 AM
Just read on another message board where a guy in Virgina was filling up yesterday and noticed the fuel from the taxed pump was red. Went inside to complain and was told it was because they were out of clear and that it was no problem because of the emergency regulations. He would have never known he was pumping red except that he topped it way up.

Moral is you may not know what you are pumping right now, save your receipts for the next couple months to prove you paid taxes.

Fronty Owner
09-06-2005, 11:35 AM
Ever since I worked at a convience store, I have kept my fuel reciepts for a while (not always months, but atleast a couple weeks). Clerks make mistakes, especially when there are two employees watching 15 pumps and trying to keep customers from stealing anything they can walk out with.

induchman
09-06-2005, 12:49 PM
Clerks make mistakes, especially when there are two employees watching 15 pumps and trying to keep customers from stealing anything they can walk out with.

I always make sure I keep my receipts, as when I once was stopped by my neighbor (deputy sheriff) for non-payment at the fuel stop. When I showed my paid receipt, he went back to the stop and pulled the video record. Sheepishly the clerk admitted he didn't know the other clerk logged my receipt. Always get a receipt!

mainer
09-06-2005, 01:20 PM
also get your recipt incase you find water in your fuel you can go back to where you got the fuel. I also try to only fill up at one station, if I can help it.


Coop

phox_mulder
09-06-2005, 05:07 PM
I always keep the receipt till I fill up the next time, you never know when it might come in handy.

If I don't "fill up" and just "top it off", then I keep both receipts till I fill up next time.


phox

Lightman
09-07-2005, 09:01 AM
What do you guys all pay with cash? I never bother keeping receipts. In the rare case I would need it, it's a quick call to the credit card company or a quick hop on their website to print out all of the charges for the month... I dont see a need to keep credit card receipts from fuel stations.

I would also avoid running red unless you are served it unknowingly..even if there is a temporary window of permission, I've read the red stays in your system for many tankfulls, and it would be just my luck that if I did it, I'd get dipped a few tanks later..hehe

theextricator
09-07-2005, 11:45 AM
I called my dealer about using the off road fuel in my 05 CTD and the service manager said "DO NOT USE IT". Our engines are not set up to run it. He also said the I would void my cummins warranty if I use it.

NHDiesel
09-07-2005, 12:35 PM
According to our local fuel supplier, its the same stuff except for the dye, so why would it void the warranty? Up here in winter months, its cut with kerosene to reduce gelling, but thats all.

Jim

theextricator
09-07-2005, 01:03 PM
He said it had a higher sulfer content among other things......I don't know....He said not to burn it.

NHDiesel
09-07-2005, 02:26 PM
I used to work at a Dodge dealership. They barely know how to fix trucks, let alone know enough about fuels to give you an educated answer. Keep in mind that your Cummins is an industrial engine, not like a Powerjoke or Duracrap. There was a link in another thread to diesel fuel info that had this info in it:

"What is the difference between No. 1-D diesel fuel and No. 2-D diesel fuel and can they be used interchangeably?
Always check with the manufacturer about the fuel requirements of your engine. However, both No. 1-D and No. 2-D are intended for use in compression ignition engines. In fact, in cold weather, No. 1-D is blended into No. 2-D or used by itself.
Three of the biggest differences between the two fuels are cetane number, heat content, and viscosity. The cetane number of No. 1-D may be one to two numbers below that of No. 2-D, but still above 40, the required minimum.

Since No. 1-D is less dense then No. 2-D, its heat content, measured in Btu/gallon, will be a few percent lower, leading to a similar reduction in fuel economy.

The lubricity of No. 1-D is likely to be slightly lower than that of No. 2-D because of its lower viscosity. Its lubricity is unlikely to be low enough to cause catastrophic failure. However, a steady diet of No. 1-D in equipment designed for No. 2-D may result in greater long term wear in the fuel delivery system."

There are additives that you can add to your fuel to increase lubricity. You could also just mix the fuel, which is whats done at our pumps up here in the winter.

Jim

Lightman
09-07-2005, 04:13 PM
I called my dealer about using the off road fuel in my 05 CTD and the service manager said "DO NOT USE IT". Our engines are not set up to run it. He also said the I would void my cummins warranty if I use it.

Now that is funny. First of all it could not void your entire warranty, only if you TOLD them you were running something other than normal on road #2, could you possibly be at risk of not getting a fuel related problem covered. No matter what you put in your tank, if your a/c breaks, it will be covered.

There is a lot of misinformation out there stating that all offroad diesel is the same as on road, just with dye.. SOME red/offroad fuel is the SAME as number 2, being low sulfur diesel(500ppm max) and simply being dyed. There DEFINITELY EXISTS TODAY a variant of off road fuel called HIGH SULFUR off road, which has a 5000ppm sulfur limit. Typically, off road diesel is the low sulfur stuff, however it's buyer beware. Some tractors and off road equipment need the higher lubricity of the high sulfur fuel, which is why some manufacturers make both - such as BP.

phox_mulder
09-07-2005, 06:12 PM
What do you guys all pay with cash? I never bother keeping receipts. In the rare case I would need it, it's a quick call to the credit card company or a quick hop on their website to print out all of the charges for the month... I dont see a need to keep credit card receipts from fuel stations.

Place I fill up it's not only a credit card reciept but a "fuel ticket", numbered and everything.
It's the proof you need that you put X amount of X type fuel at said station at said time.

It's proof that you bought from a Diesel pump, in case you get gasoline contamination, water contamination or red fuel.


phox

Fronty Owner
09-07-2005, 07:51 PM
I called my dealer about using the off road fuel in my 05 CTD and the service manager said "DO NOT USE IT". Our engines are not set up to run it. He also said the I would void my cummins warranty if I use it.
As someone else posted, the stuff is run in 1/2 million dollar Combines, It cant be that bad.

We run off-road diesel in all our generators and those have Cummins 5.9L in them.

infidel
09-07-2005, 08:36 PM
Well if high sulfur fuel is going to wreck your engine and void the warranty you had better stop driving it for a while.
As part of the fuel shortages caused by Katrina EPA has dropped maximum diesel fuel sulfur regulations for refiners for the time being.
You know durn well that if the oil monopoly can cut production costs and sell fuel for the same or higher price they will.

Nationwide fuel waiver issued to bolster fuel supplies
Emergency fuel waivers issued nationwide Aug 31 - In order to increase the supply of gasoline and minimize potential gasoline supply disruptions caused by Hurricane Katrina, EPA is waiving the requirement to sell "summer gasoline" which contains a lower volatility limit. This action has the effect of allowing early use of wintertime gasoline. EPA is also allowing the use of diesel fuel which exceeds 500 ppm sulfur content. Both waivers are effective immediately and will continue through September 15th of this year and are applicable throughout all 50 states, U.S. territories and the District of Columbia.

http://www.epa.gov/katrina/waivers.html

theextricator
09-08-2005, 09:06 AM
<edit> !!! I don't give a fat frogs <edit> what anyone runs in thier truck purchased with hard earned dollars!!!! I am just passing on what the MANUFACTURER told me. There does seem to be a lot of misconceptions out there about what is in the fuel and what is not in the fuel. I don't know enough about it to make an intelligent decision as I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. I am going to follow the manufacturers advise.

RustyJC
09-08-2005, 09:26 AM
What do you guys all pay with cash? I never bother keeping receipts. In the rare case I would need it, it's a quick call to the credit card company or a quick hop on their website to print out all of the charges for the month... I dont see a need to keep credit card receipts from fuel stations.Well, in today's environment, if I'm on the road a long way from home and am pulled over for a driveaway fuel theft, it's a lot easier to hand the officer my debit card receipt to prove that I paid for the fuel than to make my call to Visa from the local jail. :(

Rusty

infidel
09-08-2005, 09:32 AM
<edit> !!! I don't give a fat frogs <edit> what anyone runs in thier truck purchased with hard earned dollars!!!! I am just passing on what the MANUFACTURER told me. There does seem to be a lot of misconceptions out there about what is in the fuel and what is not in the fuel. I don't know enough about it to make an intelligent decision as I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. I am going to follow the manufacturers advise.Why did you even bother wasting our time asking for advice then?
A dealer service writer is hardly the manufacturer.

theextricator
09-08-2005, 10:13 AM
I didn't ask anyones advise! I was just adding to the post offering information about what I found out. Go back and read it. This is all a mute point come Sept 15 when they put the ban back into effect. If anyone gets info from their dealership and passes it along many times it helps. If my service department is the administrator of my warranty....which is the case in most dealerships....then if they tell me something will void my warranty then that is who I listen to as they represent the manufacturer. I have been buying Dodge trucks for 20 years from my dealership and have come to trust what they say. I am not a diesel mechanic so these are new to me but I am a mechanic and can follow common sense advise. Some of the advise given on these forums can differ greatly.....Just as this off road fuel issue....some here say its the same as pump diesel with just dye added and others say different. Who do you listen to? I vote for my dealer. Don't get me wrong...guys on this forum are great for finding out what problems everyone is starting to see with their trucks and we can be armed with valuable information when going into a dealership to fight for a warranty repair.

59022
09-08-2005, 07:05 PM
Well if high sulfur fuel is going to wreck your engine and void the warranty you had better stop driving it for a while.

HAR! High sulphur fuel doesn't ruin anything! That's a fallacy, and been around for a couple dozen years now. I'll bet put out by some durn goofy enviro wacko, with nothing to substantiate it. They make lotsa statements and have us digging up the data to disprove them, then they switch subjects. I've been burning red, actually it's black fuel, it in my boat for decades. And, on a rare occasion I put some in my truck to improve the lubrication that has been removed from lowered sulfur fuels.

59022
09-08-2005, 07:09 PM
Just as this off road fuel issue....some here say its the same as pump diesel with just dye added and others say different. Who do you listen to? I vote for my dealer.

Yer dealer don't know doodoo! Cummins engines have been operated on red dye fuels since they started using the dye. The first dye was blue but it confused the air taxi operators so the IRS went with red. It's a dye, just like RIT, except it takes about 8 full tanks of clear or green-yellow to clear it from your tanks and a couple of fuel filters.

infidel
09-08-2005, 08:10 PM
Just read today that due to fuel shortages the late 2006 date for the requirement of Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) may be put on hold indefinitely.
Now this will certainly cause some problems especially for engine and vehicle manufacturers who were counting on introducing fuel efficient diesels in passenger cars. Not only will these engines be unable to meet current pollution requirements but the exhaust scrubbers that they use will plug rapidly with higher sulfur fuel.

My feeling this is just due to pressure on the government from the oil companies who really don't want to see demand drop when clean diesels that get 40+ mpgs hit the market.

STATELINE
09-09-2005, 02:38 PM
back to where we started, does anyone know a DOT officer, maybe they could ask, & find out what would happen if the found dyed fuel in your truck, today?, on sept. 15th?, on sept. 20th? oct. 1st??? sure would like to know

tenbrooks
09-11-2005, 07:32 PM
I have about 45,000 gallons of Hi Sulfar red sitting 50 yds from me, id use it in a skinny minute if there wasn't a security camara looking at me while i fill it. Of course the irs fine is another reason :rolleyes: