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cbrahs
10-21-2008, 11:31 PM
http://www.koat.com/politics/17774373/detail.html?taf=alb

read the story above. below is what she wrote and a news paper printed!


Why I'm a Republican
Alamogordo Daily News
Article Launched: 10/21/2008 12:00:00 AM MDT

I read in today's paper what a woman wrote explaining why she's a Democrat. Let me tell you why I'm not. I'm a Republican because:

I believe in a sovereign God who sometimes gives us what we deserve.

I believe Muslims are our enemies.

I believe in life. A baby is not just a fetus, but a living being no matter where it resides.

I believe there is a good reason for the death penalty.

I believe in fiscal responsibility, for the government and for us.

I believe the government is way too big and rife with greed and corruption.

I believe in the truth. People believe lies because it's much easier than finding the truth.

I believe in personal responsibility. That includes spanking your children.

I believe American women should raise their own children and American men should be men enough to pay for children they've produced.

I believe a man and woman make marriage. Period.

I believe in America first and foremost and we ought to take care of our own people, our own land, and illegal aliens should go home.

I believe in guns and knowing how to use them properly.

I believe war is a fact of life and we should always win.

I believe in lower taxes. I know how to spend money better than Congress any day of the week.

I believe in voter ID.

I believe there is a moderate and a socialist in this election. I agree with a two-party system, but Obama isn't a messiah or a democrat.

He's a Muslim socialist.


Marcia Stirman, Alamogordo

ramlovingvet
10-21-2008, 11:49 PM
She has a lot of guts.. you know the obama press corp will be all over that.

cbrahs
10-21-2008, 11:50 PM
they are already whining.

ramlovingvet
10-21-2008, 11:54 PM
they are already whining.

Wow what a surprise! I am SHOCKED:o

cbrahs
10-21-2008, 11:57 PM
the Whambulance is coming! LOL

Hvytrkmech
10-22-2008, 07:22 AM
She must have been talking to my wife. [laugh]

Very courageous women indeed, well thought out and written.



Tim

staarma
10-22-2008, 09:44 AM
Dang, I'm glad she's got her head screwed on right because I don't think I'd want to argue with her.[laugh]

rkelley
10-22-2008, 10:08 AM
I read in today's paper what a woman wrote explaining why she's a Democrat. Let me tell you why I'm not. I'm a Republican because:

I believe in a sovereign God who sometimes gives us what we deserve.

I believe Muslims are our enemies.


So, just because someone is a Democrat means they don't believe in God or believe Muslims are friends? How can someone be so blind to make a blanket statement like that?

Contrary to what you guys think, all Muslims are not our enemy - just a select few who have a strict interpretation of the Koran (differently than mainstream Muslims). Yes, we must be very watchful to make sure one Religion does not dominate our government or way of life (including Christianity). But, to make a general statement all Muslims are the enemy is stretching it a bit.

It seems as though the Bible has some verbiage regarding killing people who don't believe in God as well. A little searching found this (I am not a bible person):

http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8465.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; ... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
-- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Granted, this is from an atheist site, and I am not here to argue back and forth about the Bible as I don't read it. My point is both religions seem to tell their followers to "destroy the enemy". Ultimately, it is up to the person to interpret it they way they do. The vast majority of Christians and Muslims can respect each other and peacefully coexist. Both sides have their radicals...

ramlovingvet
10-22-2008, 10:18 AM
Hmmm Very Peace loving and kind


Date Country City/State Killed Injured Description
4/14/1972 USA New York, NY 1 3 Ten members of a local mosque phone in a false alarm and then ambush responding officers, killing one.
1/19/1973 USA Brooklyn, NY 1 1 Muslim extremists rob a sporting goods store for weapons, gunning down a police officer who responds to the alarm.
7/18/1973 USA Washington, DC 8 2 Nation of Islam members shoot seven members of a family to death in cold blood, including four children. A defendant in the case is later murdered in prison on orders from Elijah Muhammad.
10/19/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 1 Nation of Islam terrorists kidnap a couple and nearly decapitate the man, while raping and leaving the woman for dead.
10/29/1973 USA Berkeley, CA 1 0 A woman is shot repeatedly in the face by Nation of Islam terrorists.
11/25/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A grocer is killed in his store by Nation of Islam terrorists.
12/11/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A man is killed by Nation of Islam terrorists while using a phone booth.
12/13/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A woman is shot to deah on the sidewalk by Nation of Islam terrorists.
12/20/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 Nation of Islam terrorists gun down an 81-year-old janitor.
12/22/1973 USA Oakland, CA 2 0 Nation of Islam terrorist kills two people in separate attacks on the same day.
12/24/1973 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A man is kidnapped, tortured and decapitated by Nation of Islam terrorists.
1/24/1974 USA Oakland, CA 4 1 Five vicious shooting attacks by Nation of Islam terrorists leave three people dead and one paralyzed for life. Three of the victims were women.
4/1/1974 USA Oakland, CA 1 1 A Nation of Islam terrorist shoots at two Salvation Army members, killing a man and injuring a woman.
4/16/1974 USA Ingleside, CA 1 0 A man is killed while helping a friend move by Nation of Islam terrorists.
3/9/1977 USA Washington, DC 1 1 Hanifi Muslims storm three buildings including a B'nai B'rith to hold 134 people hostage. At least two innocents were shot and one died.
7/22/1980 USA Bethesda, MD 1 0 A political dissident is shot and killed in front of his home by an Iranian agent who was an American convert to Islam.
8/31/1980 USA Savou, IL 2 0 An Iranian student guns down his next-door neighbors, a husband and wife.
1/31/1990 USA Tuscon, AZ 1 0 A Sunni cleric is assassinated in front of a Tuscon mosque after declaring that two verses of the Qur'an were invalid.
11/5/1990 USA New York City, NY 1 0 An Israeli rabbi is shot to death by a Muslim attacker at a hotel.
1/25/1993 USA Langley, VA 2 3 A Pakistani with Mujahideen ties guns down two CIA agents outside of the headquarters.
2/26/1993 USA New York, NY 6 1040 Islamic terrorists detonate a massive truck bomb under the World Trade Center, killing six people and injuring over 1,000 in an effort to collapse the towers.
3/1/1994 USA Brooklyn, NY 1 0 A Muslim fires on a vanload of Jewish boys, killing one.
3/23/1997 USA New York, NY 1 6 A Palestinian leaves an anti-Jewish suicide note behind and travels to the top of the Empire State building where he shoot seven people in a Fedayeen attack.
4/3/1997 USA Lompoc, CA 1 0 A prison guard is stabbed to death by a radical Muslim.
10/31/1999 USA Near Nantucket 217 0 An Egyptian airline pilot runs a planeload of 217 passengers into the water after uttering a Qur'anic prayer.
3/17/2000 USA Atlanta, GA 1 1 A local imam and Muslim spiritual leader guns down a deputy sheriff and injures his partner.
9/11/2001 USA Shanksville, PA 40 0 Forty passengers are killed after Islamic radicals hijack the plane in an attempt to steer it into the U.S. Capitol building.
9/11/2001 USA Washington, DC 184 53 Nearly 200 people are killed when Islamic hijackers steer a plane full of people into the Pentagon.
9/11/2001 USA New York, NY 2772 251 Islamic hijackers steer two planes packed with fuel and passengers into the World Trade Center, killing hundreds on impact and eventually killing thousands when the towers collapsed. At least 200 are seriously injured.
3/19/2002 USA Tuscon, AZ 1 0 A 60-year-old man is gunned down by Muslim snipers on a golf course.
5/27/2002 USA Denton, TX 1 0 Muslim snipers kill a man as he works in his yard.
7/4/2002 USA Los Angeles, CA 2 0 Muslim man pulls out a gun at the counter of an Israeli airline and kills two people.
9/5/2002 USA Clinton, MD 1 0 A 55-year-old pizzaria owner is shot six times in the back by Muslims at close range.
9/21/2002 USA Montgomery, AL 1 1 Muslim snipers shoot two women, killing one.
9/23/2002 USA Baton Rouge, LA 1 0 A Korean mother is shot in the back by Muslim snipers.
10/2/2002 USA Wheaton, MD 1 0 Muslim snipers gun down a program analyst in a store parking lot.
10/3/2002 USA Montgomery County, MD 5 0 Muslim snipers kill three men and two women in separate attacks over a 15-hour period.
10/9/2002 USA Manassas, VA 1 1 A man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas two days after a 13-year-old is wounded by the same team.
10/11/2002 USA Fredericksburg, VA 1 0 Another man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas.
10/14/2002 USA Arlington, VA 1 0 A woman is killed by Muslim snipers in a Home Depot parking lot.
10/22/2002 USA Aspen Hill, MD 1 0 A bus driver is killed by Muslim snipers.
8/6/2003 USA Houston, TX 1 0 After undergoing a religious revival, a Saudi college student slashes the throat of a Jewish student with a 4" butterfly knife, nearly decapitating the young man.
12/2/2003 USA Chicago, IL 1 0 A Muslim doctor deliberately allows a Jewish patient to die from an easily treatable condition.
4/13/2004 USA Raleigh, NC 1 4 A Muslim man runs down five strangers with a car.
4/15/2004 USA Scottsville, NY 1 2 In an honor killing, a Muslim father kills his wife and attacks his two daughters with a knife and hammer because he feared that they had been sexually molested.
6/16/2006 USA Baltimore, MD 1 0 A 62-year-old Jewish moviegoer is shot to death by a Muslim gunman in an unprovoked terror attack.
6/25/2006 USA Denver, CO 1 5 Saying that it was 'Allah's choice', a Muslim shoots four of his co-workers and a police officer.
7/28/2006 USA Seattle, WA 1 5 An 'angry' Muslim-American barges into a local Jewish center and shoots six women, one of whom dies.
10/6/2006 USA Louisville, KY 4 1 In an 'honor' attack, a Muslim man rapes and beats his estranged wife, leaving her for dead, then savagely murders their four children.
2/13/2007 USA Salt Lake City, UT 5 4 A Muslim immigrant goes on a shooting rampage at a mall, targeting people buying Valentine's Day cards at a gift shop and killing five.
1/1/2008 USA Irving, TX 2 0 A Muslim immigrant shoots his two daughters to death on concerns about their 'Western' lifestyle.
7/6/2008 USA Jonesboro, GA 1 0 A devout Muslim strangles his 25-year-old daughter in an honor killing.

staarma
10-22-2008, 10:23 AM
So, just because someone is a Democrat means they don't believe in God or believe Muslims are friends? How can someone be so blind to make a blanket statement like that?

Contrary to what you guys think, all Muslims are not our enemy - just a select few who have a strict interpretation of the Koran (differently than mainstream Muslims). Yes, we must be very watchful to make sure one Religion does not dominate our government or way of life (including Christianity). But, to make a general statement all Muslims are the enemy is stretching it a bit.

It seems as though the Bible has some verbiage regarding killing people who don't believe in God as well. A little searching found this (I am not a bible person):

http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8465.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; ... Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
-- Deuteronomy, Chapter 17:2-3,5
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Granted, this is from an atheist site, and I am not here to argue back and forth about the Bible as I don't read it. My point is both religions seem to tell their followers to "destroy the enemy". Ultimately, it is up to the person to interpret it they way they do. The vast majority of Christians and Muslims can respect each other and peacefully coexist. Both sides have their radicals...


Nice try but paraphrasing the Bible is bad business. Yes, when that judgement day arrives and if you have worshipped others besides God in which he has commanded you will be cast into the lake of fire but at least you will be judged first by him and not your peers or people. Also, it should be noted that the first covenant is not adherable to us anymore. The second covenant was made when Jesus shed his blood for our sins. We live under the second covenant today. However, there is no middle ground. If you do not believe in God then you are against him. Wrong side to be on I might add.

rkelley
10-22-2008, 10:23 AM
Yes, and I could spend the next hour or so finding all the Christian slayings just like the ones you posted. How about these:

Germany Tells Turkey to Take Action Against Brutal Christian Killings (http://www.christiantoday.com/article/germany.tells.turkey.to.take.action.against.brutal .christian.killings/10488.htm)

Indonesia sends in troops after Christian killings (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-10/13/content_271565.htm)

More christian killings in Iraq (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=1021081)

My statement stands - The vast majority of Christians and Muslims can respect each other and peacefully coexist.

staarma
10-22-2008, 10:30 AM
Yes, and I could spend the next hour or so finding all the Christian slayings just like the ones you posted. How about these:

Germany Tells Turkey to Take Action Against Brutal Christian Killings (http://www.christiantoday.com/article/germany.tells.turkey.to.take.action.against.brutal .christian.killings/10488.htm)

Indonesia sends in troops after Christian killings (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-10/13/content_271565.htm)

More christian killings in Iraq (http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=1021081)

My statement stands - The vast majority of Christians and Muslims can respect each other and peacefully coexist.

But what you can't find is where Christians have killed Muslims.

ramlovingvet
10-22-2008, 10:33 AM
Most Major and Minor wars of modern time have been due to islam and with the chant allah achbar.

Can you find one started by Christians?

cbrahs
10-22-2008, 10:38 AM
maybe he should read the quran. it says that ALL infidels must either convert or be killed. well guess what slick. that is you and me cause I sure aint converting. If a muslim reads and believes in the quran then he is a muslim who believes in the statement above. get a grip.

ian515
10-22-2008, 10:41 AM
My statement stands - The vast majority of Christians and Muslims can respect each other and peacefully coexist.

which, I thought was the basis of the christian religion.....be understanding and forgiving,

but apparently it means be judgemental and spitefull.

cbrahs
10-22-2008, 10:44 AM
ian in another post, you stated you are not much of a religious man so why are you being judgemental? might want to crack open the bible and start reading it. first commandment says "ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

pretty much sums it up there. allah is turd and these people are so nutty it isn't even remotely comedic.

ramlovingvet
10-22-2008, 10:45 AM
Christians forgive when someone asks for it and has changed from the wrong they are doing. We dont forgive while people are trying their best to kill us.

ian515
10-22-2008, 10:45 AM
maybe he should read the quran. it says that ALL infidels must either convert or be killed. well guess what slick. that is you and me cause I sure aint converting. If a muslim reads and believes in the quran then he is a muslim who believes in the statement above. get a grip.

it doesnt say that. and anyone who thinks that is close minded. here is a quote. which basically says that it is ok to defend your religion when attacked.

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression"

Totallyrad
10-22-2008, 10:47 AM
Let's not get abusive lest we lose our voice.

cbrahs
10-22-2008, 10:48 AM
did you copy and paste that. My God is NOT allah! might want to keep lookin there buddy

ian515
10-22-2008, 10:54 AM
ok, lets put it this way. does it mean that anyone who worships buddah shouldnt be allowed to worship? i mean, thats what this country stands for, is freedom of religion!

cbrahs
10-22-2008, 10:54 AM
i took a world religion class a couple years ago and we studied Christianity, Judaism, Catholicism, and islam. our instructor was an American born and raised but had worked over there for many years. islam is nothing to mess around with and they have NO problem killing someone for crossing them. I MEAN NO PROBLEM!

here are some quotes from the quran. tell me what you think they say vs what they really say.

Direct quotes from the Quran:

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)

O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred... (8:65)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (Koran 9:29-30)

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

FIGHT THEM: ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM. (9:14)

FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors. Is it then the judgment of the times of ignorance that they desire: and who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure? O YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE. (5:49-51)

The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)

Believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one god: far be it from his glory that He should have a son. (4:171)

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. THEY DESIRE THAT YOU SHOULD DISBELIEVE AS THEY HAVE DISBELIEVED, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE ALL ALIKE; THEREFORE TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM FRIENDS UNTIL THEY FLY THEIR HOMES IN ALLAH'S WAY; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SEIZE THEM AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM A FRIEND OR A HELPER. (4:89)

As for those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the punishment (4:56)

Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah - they shall have a severe punishment; and Allah is Mighty, the lord of retribution. (3:4)

Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" (Hadith 4:52:196)

Allah's Apostles said, "When a slave (of Allah) commits illegal sexual intercourse, he is not a believer at the time of committing it; and if he steals, he is not a believer at the time of stealing; and if he drinks an alcoholic drink, when he is not a believer at the time of drinking it; and he is not a believer when he commits a murder," 'Ikrima said: I asked Ibn Abbas, "How is faith taken away from him?" He said, Like this," by clasping his hands and then separating them, and added, "But if he repents, faith returns to him like this, by clasping his hands again. (Hadith 8:82:800e:) [So, with the clap of a hand, they can do whatever they want?]

The Prophet said, "The one who commits an illegal sexual intercourse is not a believer at the time of committing illegal sexual intercourse and a thief is not a believer at the time of committing theft and a drinker of alcoholic drink is not a believer at the time of drinking. Yet, (the gate of) repentance is open thereafter." (Hadith 8:82:801)

(Isolated incident) ...then prostrated himself, and all who were with him prostrated too. But an old man took a handful of dust and touched his forehead with it saying, "This is sufficient for me." Later on I saw him killed as an infidel. (Hadith 5:59:311)

[yes the Jews and Muslims are both descendents of Abraham, but here is the attitude towards descendants of Abraham through Isaac (the Jews]: "If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently desire that you may disbelieve. Your relationship would not profit you, nor your children, on the day of resurrection; He will decide between you; and Allah sees what you do. Indeed, there is for you a good example in Abraham and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; WE DECLARE OURSELVES TO BE CLEAR OF YOU, AND ENMITY AND HATRED HAVE APPEARED BETWEEN US AND YOU FOREVER UNTIL YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH ALONE (60:2-4)

cbrahs
10-22-2008, 10:56 AM
summed up to what Jesus said.

Contrast that with what Jesus said:

"But I say to you, love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. Be merciful as your Father is merciful. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Jesus, SON of God

cbrahs
10-22-2008, 10:57 AM
ok, lets put it this way. does it mean that anyone who worships buddah shouldnt be allowed to worship? i mean, thats what this country stands for, is freedom of religion!

there is a difference in peaceful religions and religions who want to take your fool head off (not intended to be straight to you but us in general).

ian515
10-22-2008, 11:00 AM
I understand that. but there are plenty of muslims who dont take the quran litterally, and they live peacfully among us, yet here we are attacking ALL muslims and calling them ALL enemies.....

cbrahs
10-22-2008, 11:03 AM
they are closet haters then. If you claim to be a muslim and live by the quran but don't believe in the stated above quotes then are you a true believer?

that is similar in terms to what I have heard "jack mormon". one who claims to be mormon but does not follow the faith. I have known several of them! LOL...

but honestly, if someone does such, they are bending the very book of rules and regulations to live by.

staarma
10-22-2008, 11:06 AM
ok, lets put it this way. does it mean that anyone who worships buddah shouldnt be allowed to worship? i mean, thats what this country stands for, is freedom of religion!

I think you're missing a point. You are right in the fact that we cannot judge man. God will be the judge. We can however judge the fruits of man. I see no fruits from killing Christians. We must remain vigilant and cautious with people who persecute God's chosen people. Yes, that's right, we along with the Jews are His chosen people. We, as Gentiles along with the Jews, are chosen since Jesus died and shed his blood for our sins. People are free to worship whoever or whatever they like. It is merely our duty to spread the good news but we must be guarded when doing so. Jesus himself said he loves sinners for it much harder for them to surrender and invite Jesus into their hearts then it is for a believer. I know God smiles each time a Christian missionary is able to change the heart of a non beliver but especially one who has been coerced into a false prophecy such as the muslim faith.

God will judge everyone one day. False prophets will be judged more harshly than satan himself. I can only do my part and wait and pray for that day and for the people who have not chosen a relationship with Jesus. This does not mean I have to lay down and take persecution from anyone.

staarma
10-22-2008, 11:10 AM
I understand that. but there are plenty of muslims who dont take the quran litterally, and they live peacfully among us, yet here we are attacking ALL muslims and calling them ALL enemies.....


We aren't attacking anyone. The Bible says there shall be no other God or God's before me. God said that not us. Therefore, their religion means nothing. I don't attack them for that I pray for them for that. They are mislead and have been false prophecied to.

patdaly
10-22-2008, 11:43 AM
which, I thought was the basis of the christian religion.....be understanding and forgiving,

but apparently it means be judgemental and spitefull.

Nope, you cannot find more understanding and forgiving than I.

I just happen to be Quaker.

That being said, I am not about to lay my or my families necks on the chopping block and have them severed simply because another religion say I must die.

I HATE no other religion, but I will also not SUBVERT to another religion.

What is written in the Koran?

mcoleman
10-22-2008, 12:28 PM
Quotations from the Koran about killing Christians:

2:190-193 Fight in the cause of God, those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out: For tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, Slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression."
2:216-217 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offense); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
2:244-245 Then fight in the cause of God, and know that God heareth and knoweth all things. Who is he that will loan to God a beautiful loan, which God will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is God that giveth (you) want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return.
4:74-77 Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter, to him who fighteth in the cause of God, whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall We give him a reward of great (value). And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? Men, women, and children whose cry is: "Our Lord! rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from Thee one who will protect; and raise for us from Thee one who will help!" Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil: so fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan. Hast thou not turned thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (form fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as, or even more than, they should have feared God: they say: "Our Lord! why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least!
4:95-96 Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath God promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward: Ranks specially bestowed by Him, and Forgiveness and Mercy. For God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.
5:72-73: They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God, - God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help. They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
8:12-15 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against God and His Apostle: If any contend against God and His Apostle, God is strict in punishment. Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist God, is the penalty of the Fire." O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them.
8:37-39: In order that God may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost. Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do.
9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (trick in war for deceiving and outwitting the enemy); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
9:14 Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers
9:20 Those who believe, and suffer exile and fight with might and main, in God's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of God: they are the people who will achieve (salvation).
9:29 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book (the Jews and the Christians) until they pay the Jizya [tax on non-Muslims] with willing submission and feel themselves subdued."
9:41 Go ye forth, (whether equipped) lightly or heavily, and strive and struggle [fight in war], with your goods and your persons, in the cause of God. That is best for you, if ye (but) knew.
9:73 O Prophet! strive hard [wage war] against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell, - an evil refuge indeed.
9:123: O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that God is with those who fear Him.
22:38-39 Verily God will defend (from ill) those who believe: verily, God loveth not any that is a traitor to faith, or shows ingratitude. To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight) because they are wronged-and verily, God is Most powerful for their aid
25:52 So obey not the unbelievers and fight strenuously with them in many a strenuous fight.
47:4 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been God's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of God, - He will never let their deeds be lost.
48:29: "Those who follow Muhammad are merciless for the unbelievers but kind to each other."
60:4: We have renounced you; and enmity and hatred is begun between us and you for ever, until ye believe in Allah alone
61:9-11 It is He Who has sent His Apostle with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it). O ye who believe! shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in God and His Apostle, and that ye strive (fight) in the Cause of God, with your property and your persons: that will be best for you, if ye but knew!
66:9 O Prophet! make war on the infidels and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their abode! and

mcoleman
10-22-2008, 12:29 PM
Quotations from the Hadith about killing Christians:

Hadith 1:13-- "I have been ordered by Allah to fight with people till they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah."
Hadith 1.24 "Narrated Ibn `Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers"
Hadith 1.25"Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause."
Hadith 19:4294 "Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war."
Hadith 1:35 "The person who participates in Allah's cause (namely, in battle). . will be recompensed by Allah either with reward or booty or will be admitted to Paradise."
Hadith 9:4 "Wherever you find infidels kill them; for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection."
Hadith 9:50, 57 "No Umma (a member of Muslim community) should be killed for killing a Kafir (an infidel). . Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him."
Sahih Muslim 4363: "You (the Jews) should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle and I wish to expel you from this land (Arabia)
Sahih Muslim 4366 Narrated by Umar ibn al-Khattab. Umar heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims

mcoleman
10-22-2008, 12:32 PM
Quotations from Muslim leaders about killing Christians:

"Those who know nothing about Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those people are witless. Islam says: 'Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all!' Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by the infidel? Islam says: 'Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter them.' Islam says: 'Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword.' The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim." (Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini)
"In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or force. The other religious groups (Christianity and Judaism) did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty to them, save only for purposes of defense. (Ibn Khaldun, The Muqadimmah: Ail Introduction to History, Islamic historian, 1377 AD)
"Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males to prepare themselves for the conquest of countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world." Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Iranian Shiite mullah)
"the religion of Islam could be above all, so that all areas of life could be guided by Islam, and so that the earth could be cleansed from unbelief" (The Islamic Council in Chechnya)
"The foremost duty of Islam is to depose the government and society of unbelievers (jahiliyyah) from the leadership of man." (Sayyid Qutb, Egyptian)
"Uniting the five pillars of Islam is the principle Jihad (lit. struggle). In Islam a Muslim must struggle against himself and his habits to submit fully to God. He must also struggle to guide his family, relatives, and friends to bring them to Islam and to convey the message of Islam itself. Since Islam is totalistic, Muslims wherever they may be, must struggle and sacrifice their energy, time, and material resources to establish Muslim congregations, mosques, madrassas (religious schools) for the maintenance and spread of Islam. Where Muslims make up a substantial fraction of the population, they must struggle to establish the Islamic Shariah (law) as their rule for living, with the aim to ultimately establish a full Islamic state in which Islam would be the ruling ideology and system. To understand this last point is very important for it is part and parcel of Islam to seek its full manifestation and where Muslims fail politically or economically, they also fail spiritually. It is innate to Islam to be militantly uncompromising with alien systems since all sovereignty and glory belongs to God, to the Prophets (PBUH) and to the believers." (Spirit of Toronto, Ontario, Canada: 1834-1984, Lindsay Holton, 1983 AD, Foreword by David Crombie, MP: Secretary of State and Minister of Multiculturalism, Islam - A Dynamic Stability, by Camel Xerri Abdullah Idris, Islamic Center Toronto Jami Mosque, p282-293)
 

mcoleman
10-22-2008, 12:34 PM
Practicing Muslims consider it allah's will to have their own children murdered if they convert to Christianity. [yuk]

mcoleman
10-22-2008, 12:43 PM
Afghanistan, August 24, 2001, "Seven months ago, Taliban leader Mullah Muhammad Omar declared over Radio Shariat that the death penalty would be imposed on any Afghan who converted to Christianity or Judaism, and that "any non-Muslim found trying to win converts will also be killed."


KABUL, Afghanistan Senior Muslim clerics said Thursday that an Afghan man who converted from Islam to Christianity must be executed and if the government caves into Western pressure and frees him they will incite people to "pull him into pieces."

The trial of Abdul Rahman has fired passions in this conservative Muslim nation and highlighted a conflict of values between Afghanistan and its Western backers.

"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hardline regime was ousted in 2001.

Rahman, a 41-year old former medical aid worker, faces the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws for becoming a Christian. His trial, which began last week, has caused an international outcry. U.S. President George W. Bush has said he is "deeply troubled" by the case and expects the country to "honor the universal principle of freedom."

German Chancellor Angela Merkel told reporters that she received assurances from Afghan President Hamid Karzai in a telephone call that Rahman would not be sentenced to death.

"I have the impression that he (Karzai) has a firm willingness" to abide by the human rights requirements and "I hope we will be able to resolve this," Merkel said going into pre-EU summit talks.

Diplomats have said the Afghan government was searching for a way to drop the case, and on Wednesday authorities said Rahman is suspected of being mentally ill and would undergo psychological examinations to see whether he is fit to stand trial.

But three Sunni preachers and a Shiite one interviewed by The Associated Press in four of Kabul's most popular mosques said they don't believe Rahman is insane.

"He is not crazy. He went in front of the media and confessed to being a Christian," said Hamidullah, chief cleric at Haji Yacob Mosque.

"The government is scared of the international community. But the people will kill him if he is freed."

Raoulf, who is a member of the country's main Islamic organization, the Afghan Ulama Council, agreed, saying, "The government are playing games. The people will not be fooled."

"Cut off his head!" he exclaimed, sitting in a courtyard outside Herati Mosque. "We will call on the people to pull him into pieces so there's nothing left."

He said the only way for Rahman to survive would be for him to go into exile outside Afghanistan.

But Said Mirhossain Nasri, the top cleric at Hossainia Mosque, one of the largest Shiite places of worship in Kabul, said Rahman must not be allowed to leave the country.

"If he is allowed to live in the West then others will claim to be Christian so they can too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."

The clerics said they were angry with the United States and other countries for pushing for Rahman's freedom.

"We are a small country and we welcome the help the outside world is giving us, but please don't interfere in this issue," Nasri said. "We are Muslims and these are our beliefs. This is much more important to us than all the aid the world has given us."

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death.

Hamidullah warned that if the government frees Rahman, "There will be an uprising" like one against Soviet occupying forces in the 1980s.

"The government will lose the support of the people," he said. "What sort of democracy would it be if the government ignored the will of all the people."

Meanwhile, human rights group Amnesty International issued a statement, saying that if Rahman has been detained solely for his religious beliefs, he would be a "prisoner of conscience."

"The charges against him should be dropped and if necessary he should be protected against any abuses within the community," the London-based group said.

Rahman is believed to have lived in Germany for nine years after converting to Christianity while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He returned to Kabul in 2002.

It was not immediately clear when Rahman's trial will resume. Authorities have barred attempts by the AP to see him and he is not believed to have a lawyer.

MCMLV
10-22-2008, 06:21 PM
Most Major and Minor wars of modern time have been due to islam and with the chant allah achbar.

Can you find one started by Christians?WW I, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Falklands.

05CTDN8
10-22-2008, 07:28 PM
Nice try but paraphrasing the Bible is bad business. Yes, when that judgement day arrives and if you have worshipped others besides God in which he has commanded you will be cast into the lake of fire but at least you will be judged first by him and not your peers or people. Also, it should be noted that the first covenant is not adherable to us anymore. The second covenant was made when Jesus shed his blood for our sins. We live under the second covenant today. However, there is no middle ground. If you do not believe in God then you are against him. Wrong side to be on I might add.

It is so funny you wrote that...

I was sitting at work yesterday and one of the girls asked me if I am a god fearing man?
No.
How can that be?
I don't believe.
What keeps you from doing evil things?
Define Evil.
Adultry, Stealing, Murder....
I responded that Adultry is a law that was based on a religous belief, therefore if you do not believe...
Then she went into the what happens when you die? I die. Thats it? Yes. What happens if there is truely a hell? Then I will party with johnny cash and the boys. I do not believe that there is some mythical gas out there running my life. Does that make me a bad person. NO. I live my life how I want to. You choose the lord and his boy....I am glad you have an imaginary friend. I have my life, when it is over..I will proclaim that I did the best I could and had a good run of it. I fear no man, race, color, religion....everyone bleeds and dies. I live with my pistol by my side because I believe in the human condition. People are bad.....For every 1 awesome person I know 20 BAD people. You can talk rapture and satan and the eternity....I will take the chances that I am here for this life. Placed here by millions of years of die hard facts and evolution. Not stories written by men,

ramlovingvet
10-22-2008, 07:37 PM
WW I, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Falklands.


Oh you need to learn history.

The Commies invaded south Vietnam
Hitler was not a Christian he persecuted them
Korea Commies invaded the south.
WWI I am not sure what the Keisers belief was.

but I suppose you think we started those.[dummy]

Dig deep how about the crusades.

CD in NM
10-22-2008, 08:12 PM
Interesting read so far guys - you all are doing a good job.

Vietnam was actually a war with commie muslims.

The Koran was written by a dictator who claimed to be 'inspired' by 'his' god.

I have read the Koran, to me it almost seemed more like some gov's manifesto of laws and punishment, sanctioning the removal of those in society that were not part of the 'organization' or 'gov'.

If you take the couple thousand years of BC information found in the bible that relates to the middle east and it's history. which is just about ALL the bible focuses on - all the ME factions have been fighting each other over their religions for close to 4 thousand years, and fighting christianity for 2 thousand years.

Muslims have about as many years in existance using the Koran as Christians do with the bible, in fact both texts were written about the same time, many years after their inceptions/practices began.

I had many friends who spent time in both Iran and Iraq during the early 70's when the US was instrumental in their oil developments. ALL of them returned to the states talking about the atrocities they did to one another, Sharia Law has NO mercy. I had a few friends who were in Iran when all the hostage stuff went down, they escaped via underground channels that the jews and christians had set up during that time. No one will ever be able to convince any of them that there is such a thing as a peaceful muslim vrs a radical one. They ALL subscribe to the teachings of the Koran which says that anyone practicing anything other than the Muslim beliefs is an infidel, and ALL infidels need killed, period, end of subject. My friends describe the friendly ones as patient sleeping dogs. Some day they will awaken to their real goals and purpose, the infidels will be totally and completely destroyed and the muslims will rule the world.

Carol

MCMLV
10-22-2008, 08:28 PM
Oh you need to learn history.

The Commies invaded south Vietnam
Hitler was not a Christian he persecuted them
Korea Commies invaded the south.
WWI I am not sure what the Keisers belief was.

but I suppose you think we started those.[dummy]

Dig deep how about the crusades.I am sorry but was not the question or rather the statement: "Most Major and Minor wars of modern time have been due to islam and with the chant allah achbar."

Are you saying that the Commies in both cases were Muslim? Hitler too? And the Kaiser? Also were the Crusades in "modern time" as you stated? Did I say or even imply that we started any of them? I think it is you who needs to learn history because you were not even partially correct.

MCMLV
10-22-2008, 08:40 PM
Commie Muslims? That must be a new one because I am sure that I am not alone in never before hearing about them.

Also there are about 600+ years between Christ walking the Earth and Mohamed living and teaching his followers. That is just a bit over the range of "at the same time."

ian515
10-22-2008, 08:47 PM
Commie Muslims? That must be a new one because I am sure that I am not alone in never before hearing about them.

[laugh][laugh] i love it, commie muslims, i thought they were buddhist[duhhh]

ramlovingvet
10-22-2008, 10:32 PM
I am sorry but was not the question or rather the statement: "Most Major and Minor wars of modern time have been due to islam and with the chant allah achbar."

Are you saying that the Commies in both cases were Muslim? Hitler too? And the Kaiser? Also were the Crusades in "modern time" as you stated? Did I say or even imply that we started any of them? I think it is you who needs to learn history because you were not even partially correct.

OK I A M T Y P I N G S L O W S O Y O U Will get is since Vietnam.

ramlovingvet
10-22-2008, 10:33 PM
OK---- I A M ---- T Y P I N G---- S L O W ----S O---- Y O U---- Will get it since Vietnam.


as far as the crusades the was humor... Oh I forgot you have none.

cbrahs
10-22-2008, 10:39 PM
I just about spit my Ramen noodles all over my laptop! THanks Ram! LOL

ramlovingvet
10-22-2008, 10:45 PM
I just about spit my Ramen noodles all over my laptop! THanks Ram! LOL


Dang Dont do that its hard on the puter.

[laugh]

cbrahs
10-22-2008, 11:06 PM
I am pretending what it will be like if BO gets into office and I have to share my money with everyone else. Eatin ramen tonight and had a burrito for breakfast LOL

MCMLV
10-23-2008, 07:38 AM
OK I A M T Y P I N G S L O W S O Y O U Will get is since Vietnam.You do not have to type slowly, just try to make sense and don't type what does not make sense, then back track and when wrong again back track some more. No joke. And have the integrity to admit when you are mistaken.

ramlovingvet
10-23-2008, 09:06 AM
You do not have to type slowly, just try to make sense and don't type what does not make sense, then back track and when wrong again back track some more. No joke. And have the integrity to admit when you are mistaken.

Why cant you just admit that muslims are violent because the koran tells them to be.
and I was not mistaken you read out of context.

staarma
10-23-2008, 09:18 AM
It is so funny you wrote that...

I was sitting at work yesterday and one of the girls asked me if I am a god fearing man?
No.
How can that be?
I don't believe.
What keeps you from doing evil things?
Define Evil.
Adultry, Stealing, Murder....
I responded that Adultry is a law that was based on a religous belief, therefore if you do not believe...
Then she went into the what happens when you die? I die. Thats it? Yes. What happens if there is truely a hell? Then I will party with johnny cash and the boys. I do not believe that there is some mythical gas out there running my life. Does that make me a bad person. NO. I live my life how I want to. You choose the lord and his boy....I am glad you have an imaginary friend. I have my life, when it is over..I will proclaim that I did the best I could and had a good run of it. I fear no man, race, color, religion....everyone bleeds and dies. I live with my pistol by my side because I believe in the human condition. People are bad.....For every 1 awesome person I know 20 BAD people. You can talk rapture and satan and the eternity....I will take the chances that I am here for this life. Placed here by millions of years of die hard facts and evolution. Not stories written by men,


Well, it does take a lot of faith to step out there. It appears you aren't ready yet and that's ok. Bill Maher fan I take it? I just ask because he uses the same lines you used.

Anyway, as a veteran myself, thank you for voting the right direction.

MCMLV
10-23-2008, 09:22 AM
Why cant you just admit that muslims are violent because the koran tells them to be.
and I was not mistaken you read out of context.You never asked me what I think about Muslims. Yes, some of them are the most fanatical violent bastards someone can be. That is not to say that others have not been or will not be. They just happen to be the flavor of the day.
If you look through human history, you will find that various people have butchered others just as much and more all in the name of their god. That by the way does not exclude Christians.
And no I am not advocating just accepting fanatics violent ways, not for Muslims or any other group, but at the same time I think we are doing poorly in showing that we are better. As it is the idea for victory in Iraq, we have to win their hearts before they will stop wanting to kill us.
And one more time no, I did not read out of context. You stated modern wars and when I posted my rebuttal you, instead of saying you meant more contemporary wars tried to show that I was wrong, which I was not.

CamperAndy
10-23-2008, 09:39 AM
All you thumpers that think the bible is the word of god (who ever that may be) are truly gullible. The King James version (emphasis on version) was commendable because it was his effort to get the Latin and Hebrew scriptures converted to the common tongues of Europe but mainly English. This was in the 1500's. Now if any of you have played the gossip game were you tell the person next to you a story and that person tells the person next to him what they heard and so on until you get around the room. You know it will not only not be the same but will be completely confused.

Now think about the so called gospels and pass those around for 1500 years and see how well they resemble the original story. By the way they are just stories, not only that but you must also know there were 1000's of these so called gospels but only a score of them are in the bible.

The bible was written based on a conference of men who had their own agenda to promote. It was written by man for man to control man.

staarma
10-23-2008, 09:42 AM
Thanks for the wisdom as usual Andy. It takes a lot of faith. I'm not thumping anyone, that's your own conviction talking. Don't feel so threatened. You have it all figured out so why even post?

05CTDN8
10-23-2008, 10:03 AM
Well, it does take a lot of faith to step out there. It appears you aren't ready yet and that's ok. Bill Maher fan I take it? I just ask because he uses the same lines you used.

Anyway, as a veteran myself, thank you for voting the right direction.

Staarma,

First and formost....Howdy...I was born and raised in Montana. Billings to be specific. But my stomping grounds were West Rosebud, Beartooth Lake and the Tongue River Reservoir....

Anyway,

Not sure who Bill Maher is. Those are my views, and a lot of people think horribly of me for it. I do not need a shadow telling me what I am doing is wrong or right. I just hate the fact that because I do not have faith, religion or some sort of "beliefs" I am the bad guy....What about almost EVERY war out there being started by some sort of religious fanatic, cult or following....

staarma
10-23-2008, 10:26 AM
Staarma,

First and formost....Howdy...I was born and raised in Montana. Billings to be specific. But my stomping grounds were West Rosebud, Beartooth Lake and the Tongue River Reservoir....

Anyway,

Not sure who Bill Maher is. Those are my views, and a lot of people think horribly of me for it. I do not need a shadow telling me what I am doing is wrong or right. I just hate the fact that because I do not have faith, religion or some sort of "beliefs" I am the bad guy....What about almost EVERY war out there being started by some sort of religious fanatic, cult or following....

Howdy, 4th generation from the Gallatin Valley here.

I don't think you're a bad guy or anyone who hasn't taken the leep of Faith yet. Most of my friends are non believers and we all do just fine and respect each other for what it is. We snowmobile together, hunt and fish together, camp together, shoot at the range together, etc. I drink a beer now and again and watch football, etc. I do have a problem with Christian and world hating fanatics of which you are certainly not.

CamperAndy
10-23-2008, 11:29 AM
Thanks for the wisdom as usual Andy. It takes a lot of faith. I'm not thumping anyone, that's your own conviction talking. Don't feel so threatened. You have it all figured out so why even post?

I am far from threatened and I feel my post is a good contribution to this thread. It was just as valid as all the bible and Koran quotes.

You ask why I post? It is the same reason everyone else posts, to voice a point of view. I read a lot more then I post and only post when I feel strongly that my point of view is valid and defensible with logic and research that can be verifiable.

I was just expecting someone to debate the validity of the source of the bible and not a complete belly up submission, you can do better then that.

Mike D
10-23-2008, 11:35 AM
Why debate someone who refers to people of faith as thumpers and gullible?

staarma
10-23-2008, 11:37 AM
I was just expecting someone to debate the validity of the source of the bible and not a complete belly up submission, you can do better then that.


I did answer your question. I said it takes a lot of Faith. It's God's word. You either believe it or you don't. I don't have to defend God's word. I simply must try my best to obey it and when I fall short I ask for and receive forgiveness. I also must spread it as the Good News. Some hear it and some don't but at least it may plant a seed here and there. Then someone may water it one day and so on and so on.

BTW, you were not looking for a debate you were simply attacking. But that's ok. I have been attacked many times on many different levels and for many different reasons. Why do you need assurance of your stance. I don't need any for mine.

Ray Roton
10-23-2008, 12:05 PM
Here is a link to a blog which has a video EVERYBODY needs to watch.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/08/obamas_swift_boat.html

CamperAndy
10-23-2008, 12:06 PM
I did answer your question. I said it takes a lot of Faith. It's God's word. You either believe it or you don't. I don't have to defend God's word. I simply must try my best to obey it and when I fall short I ask for and receive forgiveness. I also must spread it as the Good News. Some hear it and some don't but at least it may plant a seed here and there. Then someone may water it one day and so on and so on.

BTW, you were not looking for a debate you were simply attacking. But that's ok. I have been attacked many times on many different levels and for many different reasons. Why do you need assurance of your stance. I don't need any for mine.

Then convince me, that I am wrong just like the many people on here try to convince those that believe in Islam are wrong. By the fact that Islam has two sects, it shows they can not agree on what one man wrote (as his interpretation of what god told him). So it should not be too hard to see why Christens have hundreds of variations, mainly due to the many interpretations of what the many different writers of the bible had to say.

Does anyone think we would have a consensus if I started a poll on here that asked which Christen group has the correct interpretation?

staarma
10-23-2008, 12:15 PM
Then convince me, that I am wrong just like the many people on here try to convince those that believe in Islam are wrong. By the fact that Islam has two sects, it shows they can not agree on what one man wrote (as his interpretation of what god told him). So it should not be too hard to see why Christens have hundreds of variations, mainly due to the many interpretations of what the many different writers of the bible had to say.

Does anyone think we would have a consensus if I started a poll on here that asked which Christen group has the correct interpretation?

I don't need to convince you. You have to have a change of heart and make your faith your own.

The only interpretation that is needed is the fact that Jesus died for our sins and we are forgiven under His blood covenant. If you believe that then that is what really counts. No denomination will dispute that fact except one who follows Allah.

ian515
10-23-2008, 01:45 PM
Here is a link to a blog which has a video EVERYBODY needs to watch.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/08/obamas_swift_boat.html

kinda off topic dont ya think?

cbrahs
10-23-2008, 03:23 PM
Staarma,

First and formost....Howdy...I was born and raised in Montana. Billings to be specific. But my stomping grounds were West Rosebud, Beartooth Lake and the Tongue River Reservoir....

Anyway,

Not sure who Bill Maher is. Those are my views, and a lot of people think horribly of me for it. I do not need a shadow telling me what I am doing is wrong or right. I just hate the fact that because I do not have faith, religion or some sort of "beliefs" I am the bad guy....What about almost EVERY war out there being started by some sort of religious fanatic, cult or following....


Bill Maher is a slug. He is the DH that did the movie knocking religion. He will have his day in front of our maker and regret making such a movie and being such a DH

TRASHMAN
10-23-2008, 09:52 PM
and on the ninth day god created fossils,ya know just to power a cummins and of course then give the US a reason to become a police force instead of taking care of ourselves.

ramlovingvet
10-23-2008, 11:14 PM
People sure are cocky about no God..If you are wrong and you are there will be Hell to Pay.