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elbowgrease
01-10-2010, 07:38 AM
I bought a Volvo semi tractor cheap, and I kinda got what I paid for, it seems. It's okay, though. There's a lot of stuff that make it well worth it (I think!). BUT...

I'm pretty sure I've got hydrostatic lock after it sat for several months. It started up fine after an initial 4-6 weeks of sitting, but then I let it sit for 3 or 4 months. My question is:

The fittings connecting the injection lines to the cylinders are right on top and are easy to get at. If I just remove them and crank the engine (I hope the engine will then turn over...right now it turns just a fraction and halts), I would hope to see some coolant come out of one or more cylinders. I could then put a little vacuum tube in the problem cylinders and, I hope, suck out the remaining coolant, reattach the fittings, and get the engine running for now. Will this work? What are the gotchas?

Thanks.

Hvytrkmech
01-10-2010, 07:52 AM
What engine and what power rating, how many miles on it? Going through engine coolant? When you attempt to start it does it begin to spin over normally then stop violently or does it just seem to lumber over and stop?

elbowgrease
01-10-2010, 08:24 AM
What engine and what power rating, how many miles on it? Going through engine coolant? When you attempt to start it does it begin to spin over normally then stop violently or does it just seem to lumber over and stop?
I can find out these things, but I don't know them offhand. The truck is a '93, and I'm sure it has well over a million miles. I don't know the history of the engine.

I wouldn't describe the engine's stopping as "violent." I would guess the crankshaft turns about 90 degrees, more or less, and just won't go beyond. It is very consistent. The same sound each time. With the hood up, I watch the engine's counter-twisting motion, and it's the same every time. I wouldn't describe it as "turning over." It just doesn't turn that much. The batteries are charged.

I imagine one piston that's at the bottom of it's stroke before compression, and it's just moving part way up and getting stopped by incompressible coolant.

I don't think it's a common rail system, since I see individual tubes running to each cylinder.

I'm thinking my original question is screwed up, since there are injectors under the fittings I see going "into" the cylinders, right? Unscrewing the fitting won't open a hole to the cylinder because there's an injector underneath. Can the injector just be unscrewed? Will that open a hole to the cylinder and let the coolant be pushed out?

Thanks for your reply.

Hvytrkmech
01-10-2010, 08:35 AM
93 is a cross over year for all of the big engine makers. You could get a mechanical or electronic engine. It sounds like you have a mechanical Cat. Is the engine yellow?

elbowgrease
01-10-2010, 08:40 AM
No. It's definitely a Volvo engine. I took a few pics with my cellphone. I'll post them in a little bit. Thanks.

elbowgrease
01-10-2010, 09:13 AM
You can see the pics here. The first pic shows the two cylinders toward the rear of the truck. The first pic is the cylinder at the front of the truck. Thanks.

http://s819.photobucket.com/albums/zz120/elbowgrease_bucket/

elbowgrease
01-10-2010, 09:14 AM
CORRECTION: You can see the pics here. The first pic shows the two cylinders toward the rear of the truck. The SECOND pic is the cylinder at the front of the truck. Thanks.

http://s819.photobucket.com/albums/z...grease_bucket/

Hvytrkmech
01-10-2010, 09:40 AM
I have never worked on a Volvo engine. It does appear through your pictures that the injectors are external and can be removed easily. I see a injector feed line on top, a return line on the side and a hold down bolt and retainer.

elbowgrease
01-10-2010, 01:37 PM
So is removing the injectors and blowing out the coolant the way to temporarily "cure" the lock to get the motor running?

torquefan
01-10-2010, 01:48 PM
So is removing the injectors and blowing out the coolant the way to temporarily "cure" the lock to get the motor running?

I would think that would be the first diagnostic step to take. After removing all injectors, you can have a helper crank the engine from inside the cab, while you can watch the engine from a safe distance to see what comes out of which hole. Be careful, it can shoot out with considerable force.

elbowgrease
01-10-2010, 01:55 PM
Thanks. I'll be by myself, but the hood opens toward the front, and I think I can see all the cylinder tops if I stand up in the cab.

Hvytrkmech
01-10-2010, 05:25 PM
So is removing the injectors and blowing out the coolant the way to temporarily "cure" the lock to get the motor running?


Yes, you can do this as long as you disable the fuel supply. I personally would not want pressurized fuel spraying all over the place. As previously stated, I have never worked on a Volvo engine, with that being said I would recommend you research how to shut down the fuel supply without wiping out the injection pump as to avoid future headaches.

elbowgrease
01-11-2010, 09:56 AM
Do you think I could tie a plastic container over each of the six fuel rails to catch the fuel? Also, there might be only a little fuel if I would only have to crank the engine over a few turns to see which cylinder(s) is leaking. Then I could fashion a sucker from a turkey baster and some tubing to suck the coolant out. Does that make sense?

M671054
01-18-2010, 09:26 PM
from looking at your pictures i think you have an old td 123 engine, the injection pump should have a lever on it with and air cylinder that is used to shot off fuel delivery, you would have to tie it forwards(post a picture of the pump to be sure, also i think the engine model should be listed on the driver door jamb( maybe not on something that old) but will be on engine tag altough i bet it not legible, as for removing the injectors, sometimes this style sticks in the bore, but you can weld some nuts together and use a sllide hammer to get them out, also if memory serves each has its own cylinder head so repair would be easier-good luck

1-5-3-6-2-4
01-18-2010, 10:04 PM
until you can barr the engine over 720* by hand smoothly. i wouldn't be useing the starter on it.

bigwheels94
01-19-2010, 02:16 PM
1st. DO NOT slide hammer the injecters out on a Volvo. They usually have a copper sleeve in the head that is surounded by eng. coolant. If the injecters won't just come out by hand I'd buy the puller from volvo, & do it right.
2nd. I agree with the guy that said to bar it over by hand before you try the starter. Unless you like bent conecting rods. May be too late for that now anyway.
3rd. I'd test the cooling system to be sure it holds pressure.

OneBigDoofus
01-19-2010, 07:08 PM
I wouldn't describe the engine's stopping as "violent." I would guess the crankshaft turns about 90 degrees, more or less, and just won't go beyond. It is very consistent. The same sound each time. With the hood up, I watch the engine's counter-twisting motion, and it's the same every time. I wouldn't describe it as "turning over." It just doesn't turn that much. The batteries are charged.

I imagine one piston that's at the bottom of it's stroke before compression, and it's just moving part way up and getting stopped by incompressible coolant.

Thanks for your reply.

I haven't been around here in a while and hope ya'll don't mind me throwing a few things out there.

So the whole time you've been fooling with it, it has never made one full revolution right?

Here's how I'd kinda approach this.
I'd remove all the valve covers and some where on the engine there'll be a exh valve near full open or full open.

Here's a little crankshaft anatomy.

Pistons 1 and 6 travel together

Pistons 2 and 5 travel together

Pistons 3 and 4 travel together.

For instance,...Say the exh valve is open (the most depressed on engine) on cyl.5 will tell you its on the exh stroke but also tells you that piston #2 is on the compression stroke.

If the engine stops at this point then try to open the exh valve by HAND on cyl#2 and see if it relieves the piston hyd. pressure and allows the fluid to pass as you roll the engine by HAND. A helper would be handy.

Opening one exh valve is a lot easier then pulling 6 injectors.:o

elbowgrease
01-21-2010, 01:44 PM
Thanks all for the great info. I think some of the email notifications are going into spam because I just got one notice, and there are a bunch of postings. Some answers:

Correct. No full revolution in recent months. I parked it last July, and it started fine about a month later. Then I let it sit for maybe 3 months. Batteries were real weak, and engine barely budged. After I got the batteries definitely charged, I got the current situation -- what feels like a lock.

I sure hope I haven't bent a connecting rod, but I find it a little hard to believe that the starter would have enough torque do that, especially after just a partial revolution...but I don't have experience here...and I'm still hoping there' no bent rod, of course.

I snapped a pic of the engine label, and I'll post it with the other pics as soon as I find the photo account info. From looking at the pic, it's pretty clear that the engine family is MVT12.FAA0 and the there are 3 models listed under that: TD123EA, EB, and EC, so I think M671054 is right about the engine model.
.
I also took a pic of the injection pump, which I'll post.

There are no glow plugs (maybe you all knew that). There's a preheater with a "don't blow yourself up with starting fluid" warning. I'm a novice with these big engines, so tell me where I put a wrench on it to try to "bar" it over. I would assume there's just a big nut or fitting at the end of the crankshaft. I didn't look for it because I assumed these big engines are just too big to hand crank.

From the sound of how hard it can be to get injectors out undamaged, I like the idea of removing the valve covers (are there special gotchas there?), which sounds pretty easy...and analyzing it the way OneBigD suggests to find out which cylinder(s) is coming up on compression.

I'm hopeful that I'll find diesel in there and not coolant, so maybe it's just a leaky injector and not a blown head gasket. I'll try to get the additional pics posted shortly.

OneBigDoofus
01-23-2010, 09:29 AM
I guess I missed the length of time sense it run last[redface]

So I assume your turning it backwards by hand and if this is the case, does the stopping point feel the exact same either direction when it hits? If this is true then you more then likely have a more serious problem then a fluid hydraulic lock because when rotating backwards the intake valve opens allowing fluid to be pushed out the intake.

I got a good ideal whats going on there but will wait and hear back from you.

I've got a vid on my computer at home that might help explain whats happen from sitting. I'm traveling now but will be home tonight if your interested in the vid.

M671054
01-23-2010, 11:28 AM
1st. DO NOT slide hammer the injecters out on a Volvo. They usually have a copper sleeve in the head that is surounded by eng. coolant. If the injecters won't just come out by hand I'd buy the puller from volvo, & do it right.
2nd. I agree with the guy that said to bar it over by hand before you try the starter. Unless you like bent conecting rods. May be too late for that now anyway.
3rd. I'd test the cooling system to be sure it holds pressure.

if the injectors are stuck the would be stuck to the upper steel retainer that locks the copper downnot the copper, these can be reset in the heads and tapped in with a dead blow hammer if they come out, just trying to save the cost on oe tools.

M671054
01-23-2010, 11:34 AM
dumb question, why is it assumed to be coolant locking up the engine? is the coolant low?, have you pressure tested the cooling system and are dropping pressure?, is the oil overfull or is there coolant in it?

elbowgrease
01-23-2010, 10:00 PM
I'm not assuming it's coolant anymore. I'm hoping it's a leaky injector. I won't get to it during the next few days. I uploaded the pics of the engine label and the injection pump.

http://s819.photobucket.com/albums/z...grease_bucket/

Coolant not low. No pressure test. Oil looked good last I looked, sometime ago.

M671054
01-24-2010, 05:50 PM
i dont think with a pump line nozzle type injection system one could have enough fuel leak into a cylinder to cause an issue, the combustion bowls in the pistons can hold a good amount of fuel, sounds like you might have something else going on

elbowgrease
02-03-2010, 12:20 AM
Hoping to get to the Volvo before the weekend is out. Here's a side question for y'all. I've been browsing around for an alternate semi tractor, and I've been searching for a 3406b engine, preferably, although the electronic 3406e is also around in the '95/'96 years I'm looking at.

Question: What are your opinions on a 3406b or 3406e vs. a '95 Detroit 60 series? I want at least a rated 425HP. I know I won't get that with an older engine, but I want to at least have the timing set up for it.

I know a little bit about the Cat, but next to nothing about the 60 series...but I do have a Detroit engine in my 1969 dump truck, and that thing keeps chugging along, even with the oil pressure dropping to 20psi when it's warm.

1-5-3-6-2-4
02-03-2010, 12:56 AM
Everything has its particular quirks and such, I'm a fan of the Series 60. a 3406E is a proven good engine too though. that engine in your dump is likely a 2 stroke Detroit. totally different animal than a OHC 4 stroke 60.

elbowgrease
02-03-2010, 05:45 AM
2 stroke diesel? I'm just reading about it Wow. I had no idea. My Detroit engine has an oil fill, dipstick, etc. Could that still be a 2 stroke?

1-5-3-6-2-4
02-03-2010, 07:29 AM
2 stroke diesel? I'm just reading about it Wow. I had no idea. My Detroit engine has an oil fill, dipstick, etc. Could that still be a 2 stroke?

those are thing all engines have. if it has a blower on it . it a 2 stroke. if its a V engine it'll be in the valley, if its an inline engine. it will be hanging in the side of the block opposite the exhaust manifold. i could say what series engine though.

elbowgrease
02-05-2010, 02:25 AM
Putting aside the Volvo engine for a few days. Looking at buying a Detroit DD94 SER 60 12.7L,4 (DD06R0277095) tomorrow morning. Anyone know the spec'd HP on this by looking at the numbers? I'll look for a placard tomorrow. Thanks.

1-5-3-6-2-4
02-05-2010, 06:23 PM
holy carp thats an OLD girl/
with that serial number I can likely tell you about it tommorrow after work.

if you want to verify the model and serial #. they are stamped in a pad on the driverside of the block on about a 4x5" square machined pad. above the ECM.

you might need steel wool and some wd40 and brakeclean to scuff any rust off it so you can read it.

elbowgrease
02-06-2010, 10:35 PM
I saw the placard, and the numbers looked fine. I forgot to take a pic of it...was too busy checking everything out. The highest tested hp was 470 at 2100 rpm, 380 at a lower rpm, as I recall. It's not a young engine, and I don't know anything about its rebuild history (tractor was an impound)...so its real power output is certainly less than spec. It's a 95 engine in a 96 volvo. I can swap the nice tires from the the locked up 92 volvo onto the 96...and other parts too, as needed. This one has a differential for the 3rd axle too, which has already come in handy. The 92 volvo doesn't drive the 3rd axle. The gauges or senders or sending wires need some playing with, as I'm getting some wacked out readings. I want to calibrate oil pressure and coolant temp. first thing, because I hate to see the readings I see, even if I know they're wrong. I'm pretty optimistic about the engine and the whole drive train too.

M671054
02-20-2010, 01:04 PM
beware of older electronic trucks unless you are competent in electronics, all wiring will fail and cause you greif, 90 percent of my day at the dealership is fixing electrical gremlins, on a 96 you can gauruntee that some of the wiring is iffy, also i think that cluster is a datalink dash and all signals are broadcast from the respective ecm to the cluster, indivual parts are available but very sensitive, usually cracked boards cause funky readings, we wont even change parts of a cluster anymore at our shop, to much liability on these older trucks, get the complete factory diagrams from youre local dealer first thing when buying this truck, it will save you money in the long run, also paper diagrams are more expensive than the cd version but i find they are more usefull

elbowgrease
02-21-2010, 07:39 PM
Thanks, M. I am an electronics guy, but you're right about getting the schematics...and none of that would do me squat if it died on the road. I've seen the dials do some funky stuff, like the speedo spin all the way around, so there are certainly electronic issues there. When it comes to the instrument cluster, I don't need perfection - just basic info., and I'll gerry rig oil pressure and coolant temp. if I have to. Keeping the engine going on the road is my bigger concern.

One thing that bugs me: when I start it up after a week and just let it idle and pop the hood, it looks and sounds great...but after 15 minutes, it just dies. It starts right up, though. I haven't driven it all that much yet, and it hasn't died on me on the road, so I'm not too concerned about this 15min dying. I just hope it isn't something that'll get worse and bite me at some point. Any thoughts about it? There's no sputtering or anything. Then engine just seems to turn off.

elbowgrease
03-03-2010, 06:58 PM
For a 1995 Det. series 60, is there a cool down lockout or something that would prevent the engine from shutting down when the ignition key is turned to off?

elbowgrease
05-04-2011, 04:32 PM
Based on the forum's advice, I barred over the engine with a socket and breaker bar, and got it through the hydro lock. It cranks fine now.

The truck has been sitting a long time. It still cranks fine, but there's no kick at all. The injection pump has a primer button, and a trucker told me that I had to push that thing over and over until it became really tough to push. I've pushed it off and on for at least 10 minutes, maybe 15. It sometimes seems to get a little tougher to push, but not real tough. I've tried starting the engine, but no dice. There is fuel in the tanks. Any advice? Thanks.