Artsi_L

I picked up a Holset VGT / HE431VE. It's totally electronically controlled turbocharger. It even has an optic speed sensor on the compressor side. Turbine housing variable geometry blades are electrically adjustable (apparently according to the speed sensor and the boost pressure sensor info).

I read from someplace that someone had made a 5.9 Cummins to work with a VGT Holset. I wonder if anyone on this board would happen to have more info on adapting fully electronically driven VGT charger into manually operated state?

Here are a few pics. (Holset web site also has a complete repair catalogue on this charger model in case anyone is keen to have a peek.)
Sizewise this seems to be a HX40 equivalent. Should make a killer single turbo to a 5.9 Cummins. Just imagine this as a small top unit in a twin setup

http://community.webshots.com/album/549228142EhHnai

joefarmer

If you have the parts catalog, does it list the specs needed to drive the turbo? I think someone was saying a PWM signal is needed to control the vanes. I believe they made a PWM controller that monitored boost and adapted this to the turbo.

Had to post the link:


brnaodn.

seabee

the only vgt on a 5.9 that i know of is the one that gale banks has on the sidwinder truck . and he made his own controler and im sure he would want lots to make another one

Artsi_L

"Joefarmer" - The repair manual only tells which pins in wiring harness to measure up with a multimeter, and gives out spec values. Some mechanical parts should have such and such amount of slack...etc.
Manual is no help in comprehending how the darn thing works.
A complete tech writeup on ECU would help a big deal. Bosch has those books available for public. I guess we have to wait up some years before they publish the system Cummins has. BTW, what ECU does Cummins have, a Bosch by any chance?

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Let's not let electronic jazz to fool us. I know of few four banger diesels in my neck of the woods, which have a Garrett variable geometry turbos running completely without any electronics.

Originally VW/Audi group motors have a 3-way bleeding solenoid adjusting suitable amount of vacuum to a variable geometry blade arrangement. MAP sensor talks back to ECU, and ECU drives that 3-way bleed solenoid. Exactly like late gen Cummins does with a HY351 Holset's with that solenoid sticking outta compressor housing. Holset uses boost pressure, VW/Audi play with a vacuum.
What guys have done, is to chuck away that vacuum operated actuator, and replace it with an ordinary wastegate actuator, and run that from boost piping after the intercooler with a boost elbow. Works like magic.

I am after similar arrangement. Why make it so complicated, and drive oneself up the wall in an attempt to craft up PWM control circuitry. I believe boost driven actuator would work. It may not be as sophisticated as PWM controlled system, however it would be miles away from a large, laggy, wastegated single turbo.

swank

there was a guy on tdr that got a set up running. i haven't had any luck getting in touch with him. can you get any more of those? i've been stock piling vgt's for a while now. i've got an hy35v, hy55v, and a he551v. i want to make a set of twins really bad, but i think the 35 is way too small to use in a set up.

here's a couple threads i've started on the subject. maybe you'll be able to glean something from them.

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/sh...ighlight=swank

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/f...ighlight=elbow

dave

ps. is that bent stud the only damage?

Diesel-Dan

AS per the Holeset web site (I think) They made that turbo with a mechanical accuator in some applications. (VIA boost) I would figure that would be the way to go if its posable.......Im sure its only a matter of time....VGT is the latest and greatest!

joefarmer

Well if you know how to do it... why ask? Hehehe... just having fun.

brandon.

Diesel-Dan

HAHA...here is a thought....just run a cable through the fire wall and run the action manualy!! COULD work for raceing with an auto!!

swank

the ones that are air operated are just that, air operated. not boost. i looked into making it work like that and decided it would be too much trouble for something that would blow up too easily. the problem is that at rest, it's set up to be a large housing. when pressure is applied, it gets smaller. so if you just hooked it up to boost, it would be laggy as heck and once it actually started to spool, the shaft would almost instantly get over sped and go shooting out the back or something. i thought about reversing the actuator and running it like that though. figured it would be better to do it right though. it's got all the stuff on it to make it work like it's supposed to, so why not use it. just have to have an onboard air set up.

swank

i've thought a lot about this artsi. a set up like that would kinda screw ya.

1st, you have no safety margin. you would have to have it set up so that if for some odd reason something went wrong when you're heading down the road at 75 and lost power/boost/whatever, it would go back to the smallest housing setting. bad.

2nd, you'd have to have it set up so that when you're cruising down the hwy, when you would want low boost, it would still have a relatively small housing, increasing drive pressure, hurting mileage, and running "too much" boost than was needed.

Diesel-Dan

SEEE that cable is looking better and better!!!

swank

post #5 of the cummins forum thread has a diagram of the necessary (according to holset) inputs. i'm going to try and incorporate as many of those as i can into my set up. may take longer, but i'll feel a lot more confident about stomping on the pedal.

Artsi_L

"swank" - You have the actuator connected to VGT mechanism shaft. Good stuff. It'll work if you flip it other way round as you say.

The Garrett VGT chargers I am referring to, are set up as you describe on Holsets - turbine housing is large in rest.
The very essence of that is to be failsafe like you say. In case control circuitry goes bust, it'll just make turbine housing large as possible and stay there.

The butchered Garrett VGT chargers do not work like that, they would keep the turbine housing small if control tubing would get busted up, resulting in turbo shaft overspeed and too much boost.
Actually, isn't that exactly what wastegated turbocharger would do when actuator tubing experiences cathastropic failure - and no one seems to be overly concerned of this eventuality.


I like to keep things simple. I have a solution for your worries on having a small turbine housing when control system lets you down. You need a large bore (say 1 inch) magnetic solenoid air valve (which is closed in rest), and a MAP sensor, and a friend who is into electronics.
Bolt on MAP into boost piping, run it into simple transistor circuitry, which operates the magnetic solenoid.
Whenever you hit too much boost, the solenoid will open up, and vent off your boost pressure.

If you wanna make it sophisticated, add a switch that overlooks whether actuator arm is at rest or not. This way the venting solenoid will only work when:
1 - you have too much boost
2 - VGT mechanism actuator is at rest

I think I may be able to source you that transistor circuitry if you decide to set path on this way.

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My VGT is different to yours. I would need to do more fabbing. See pics.







And here is the part I need to get nasty with




Finally, yes, the bent stud seems to be the only damage I have (by visual inspection). Shaft & bearings seem fine. No extra play.

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Sorry Dan, I'm not warming up on on hot-rod cable idea.... unless of course I tie it up to a boost gauge needle... Now THAT would be a self reliant fully automated control system

Diesel-Dan

This is very interesting! ALSO...you pics didnt work.....I WANT TO SEE!

Artsi_L

Webshots pics hosting gotta be jammed up. Pls try direct link to my pic archive:

http://community.webshots.com/album/549228142EhHnai