History Of the B5.9 Engine
08-11-2003, 12:43 AM
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History Of the B5.9 Engine
What's the history of the B5.9 engine that we all love!
When was it originally designed? Who was the designer? World applications? How many have been made? What event's led it to be installed in the Ram? etc. etc.
Inquiring minds want to know! (okay, my mind for sure) ???
-- BigC
When was it originally designed? Who was the designer? World applications? How many have been made? What event's led it to be installed in the Ram? etc. etc.
Inquiring minds want to know! (okay, my mind for sure) ???
-- BigC
08-11-2003, 01:05 AM
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Re:History Of the B5.9 Engine
It is rumored that the 5.9 came about as the result of a joint venture between Case and Cummins. Another company, named Consolidated, was also formed to manufacture them. The design was licensed form Duetz AG.
This is how I understand it. In light of any hard facts I may stand corrected.
This is how I understand it. In light of any hard facts I may stand corrected.
08-11-2003, 09:16 AM
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Re:History Of the B5.9 Engine
Its not a rumor. Cummins had the $$$, and Case had the design. I was working for a truck leasing company at the time, and had the honor of running some tests for Cummins. Had two engines installed in mid size straight trucks. They both did very well in testing. These were real condition testing. MIG MIKE
08-14-2003, 07:18 PM
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Re:History Of the B5.9 Engine
Yep the 5.9 came from the Consolidated Diesel Corp. joint venture between Case and Cummins.
But if you look at it this way......Case, or more aproprietly Tenneco, bought IH, which was the original owner of the Navistar name, which makes the 7.3 and the 6.0 stroke, which Ford puts in their trucks. So in a round about way, says that Ford owns 100 % of Cummins.....
Sounds kinda farfetched, but some Ford guy tied using that excuse on me once.....
Of course you could know use the exact same logic to say that New Holland, which now owns Case, is the true owner of Cummins......
But if you look at it this way......Case, or more aproprietly Tenneco, bought IH, which was the original owner of the Navistar name, which makes the 7.3 and the 6.0 stroke, which Ford puts in their trucks. So in a round about way, says that Ford owns 100 % of Cummins.....
Sounds kinda farfetched, but some Ford guy tied using that excuse on me once.....
Of course you could know use the exact same logic to say that New Holland, which now owns Case, is the true owner of Cummins......
08-14-2003, 08:15 PM
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Re:History Of the B5.9 Engine
...from another thread on the subject...
=====
you're all wrong. But it's a very complicated story, and I wouldn't blame you for not reading about it, or even for not believing it.
(1) Isuzu owned Subaru, and sold out to Fuji Heavy Industries, which was then jointly acquired by British Leyland and Ford.
(2) BL & Ford then spun off Fuji/Subaru into an independent company. Big mistake. Ford bought BL, and owned Isuzu outright. Big mistake.
(3) Isuzu entered into a joint development partnership with Navistar International. Stock interests were traded. Eventually, one of the projects would be a 7.3L V-8 light-duty diesel. Guess who picked that one up for use in its pickup trucks?
(4) Navistar also had entered into a joint development partnership with Caterpillar. One of the projects was a direct injection system that would be picked up by -- Ford. And Isuzu mediums.
(5) Caterpillar owned a large chunk of Bosch. GM owned another big chunk. And so did a third major player -- Daimler Benz. Bosch was the primary developer of Caterpillar's direct injection system. But GM forced Caterpillar to turn over its share of Bosch, and then forced Bosch to abandon direct injection in favor of developing an "improved" generation rotary injection pumps. The initial designs for those pumps had been brought to GM by former Isuzu engineers working for Ford.
(6) What did Caterpillar receive in return for giving GM its stock in Bosch? GM's stock in Cummins. Ford then sold its small share of Cummins stock because of antitrust regulations in the U.S. Caterpillar, on the other hand, avoided antitrust problems by a joint incorporation agreement with Cummins under a Brazilian operation named Inquardo, Ltd.
(7) Eventually almost all Cummins manufacturing and design were moved over to that part of the "house". However, that move proved so efficient and profitable that Cummins began to eat into significant markets for Caterpillar, so Caterpillar merged its manufacturing and design base with Cummins in Brazil, leaving skeleton operations only in places like Peoria, Illinois. Cummins management largely pushed out Caterpillar management after several years.
(8) With me so far? Caterpillar owns Cummins, but Cummins has effectively "eaten" Caterpillar. In Brazil. Here, they're separate, of course, but it's only the purposes of adhering to American commercial law. But wait. There's more.
(9) Ford had some disasterous capitalization-and-flow problems after the overseas buying spree of the early nineties, during which it acquired British Leyland, Isuzu, Fuji, part of Fiat, and parts of other companies. Ford was forced to sell Isuzu to maintain cash flow beyond the U.S. Who did they sell Isuzu to? Navistar International. Along with certain manufacturing and sourcing arrangements. Navistar hoped to go global again, as in the grand old days of International Harvester.
(10) But Navistar couldn't hold on to Isuzu either, what with a $2 billion dollar loss in 1995, and eventually sold its controlling interest in the company to Daimler Benz.
(11) Isuzu was having its own problems, since its global market share in light and medium diesels was rapidly shrinking. The cause of the problem was Cummins, which, after swallowing Caterpillar - in Brazil - had also acquired NGT, Tapei Technologies, Allison Canada, and Nansen-Renault, all in hostile takeovers, all manufacturers of diesel technologies outside of the U.S. So, Cummins had effectively cornered the controlling share of the global market outside of North America and Western Europe. (Why do you think the splashgate at their website is so heavily global?)
(12) After nine months of negotiation, Cummins and its subsidiary, Allison Canada, entered into a joint development arrangement with Isuzu, owned by Daimler, and with the surviving U.S. corporation, Allison, which was at that point partly owned by GM. Cummins, however, dominated the partnership, and eventually managed to assume Daimler's and GM's interests in Isuzu and and Allison.
(13) In the case of Isuzu, Cummins has an equal partnership with Daimler, which, of course, has also acquired Chrysler Corporation. That's why, when Ford offered Cummins a billion-dollar package to manfacture medium and light truck diesels for its vehicles in 2001, Cummins said no. Again, for antitrust reasons, a public holding company was set up to handle Isuzu as a separate corporate entity. The name of the company is Benz Transporation Technologies, of San Paulo, Brazil. BTT also is a major owner of the Benz division of Daimler Chrysler, which manufacturers most of the diesel engines in Europe. In the case of Allison, Cummins controls it through a series of holding companies ending with Inquardo, Ltd., the orginal Caterpillar-Cummins creation in Brazil. Cummins also controls a fair-size block of stock in GM, through the ownership of a cartel of South Korean and Thai banks and investment groups.
(14) Navistar has continued its free-fall in spite of its partnership with Ford in the light-duty diesel area. Three weeks ago, after the implications of labor troubles, a rise in basic resource costs, and the disasterous introduction of the 6.0L PSD had become clear, Navistar's financial arrangements with Citibank and Manufacturers B&T collapsed. Both banks arranged to float the company infrastructural loans if it would agree to a merger with -- are you ready for this? -- Inquardo, Ltd. As of last Thursday, Cummins owns 67% of Navistar through Inquardo.
Right now, Cummins makes all diesels in all pickup trucks sold in the United States. Cummins makes 73% of all diesels in all trucks sold in the world. The board of directors at Inquardo -- which isn't listed on any stock exchange -- includes 9 Cummins execs, 2 Caterpillar execs, and one Wells Fargo Bank exec. The CEO and CFO are also Cummins vice presidents. And there are Cummins execs on the boards of Daimler Chrysler, General Motors, Toyota, and Honda America. Ford, the holdout, has not been doing very well.
So it isn't a question of who owns Cummins. It's a question of who Cummins owns, and who's next. Could be Ford. Could be DC. Could be both. Ford Viper, anyone? Mercedes Mustang with a 6.0L Shelby Diesel and a Holset twin turbo?
And some have claimed that the new Navistar/Ford 6.0L is Cummins' revenge for the Bosch VP44.
====
;D ;D ;D ;D
=====
you're all wrong. But it's a very complicated story, and I wouldn't blame you for not reading about it, or even for not believing it.
(1) Isuzu owned Subaru, and sold out to Fuji Heavy Industries, which was then jointly acquired by British Leyland and Ford.
(2) BL & Ford then spun off Fuji/Subaru into an independent company. Big mistake. Ford bought BL, and owned Isuzu outright. Big mistake.
(3) Isuzu entered into a joint development partnership with Navistar International. Stock interests were traded. Eventually, one of the projects would be a 7.3L V-8 light-duty diesel. Guess who picked that one up for use in its pickup trucks?
(4) Navistar also had entered into a joint development partnership with Caterpillar. One of the projects was a direct injection system that would be picked up by -- Ford. And Isuzu mediums.
(5) Caterpillar owned a large chunk of Bosch. GM owned another big chunk. And so did a third major player -- Daimler Benz. Bosch was the primary developer of Caterpillar's direct injection system. But GM forced Caterpillar to turn over its share of Bosch, and then forced Bosch to abandon direct injection in favor of developing an "improved" generation rotary injection pumps. The initial designs for those pumps had been brought to GM by former Isuzu engineers working for Ford.
(6) What did Caterpillar receive in return for giving GM its stock in Bosch? GM's stock in Cummins. Ford then sold its small share of Cummins stock because of antitrust regulations in the U.S. Caterpillar, on the other hand, avoided antitrust problems by a joint incorporation agreement with Cummins under a Brazilian operation named Inquardo, Ltd.
(7) Eventually almost all Cummins manufacturing and design were moved over to that part of the "house". However, that move proved so efficient and profitable that Cummins began to eat into significant markets for Caterpillar, so Caterpillar merged its manufacturing and design base with Cummins in Brazil, leaving skeleton operations only in places like Peoria, Illinois. Cummins management largely pushed out Caterpillar management after several years.
(8) With me so far? Caterpillar owns Cummins, but Cummins has effectively "eaten" Caterpillar. In Brazil. Here, they're separate, of course, but it's only the purposes of adhering to American commercial law. But wait. There's more.
(9) Ford had some disasterous capitalization-and-flow problems after the overseas buying spree of the early nineties, during which it acquired British Leyland, Isuzu, Fuji, part of Fiat, and parts of other companies. Ford was forced to sell Isuzu to maintain cash flow beyond the U.S. Who did they sell Isuzu to? Navistar International. Along with certain manufacturing and sourcing arrangements. Navistar hoped to go global again, as in the grand old days of International Harvester.
(10) But Navistar couldn't hold on to Isuzu either, what with a $2 billion dollar loss in 1995, and eventually sold its controlling interest in the company to Daimler Benz.
(11) Isuzu was having its own problems, since its global market share in light and medium diesels was rapidly shrinking. The cause of the problem was Cummins, which, after swallowing Caterpillar - in Brazil - had also acquired NGT, Tapei Technologies, Allison Canada, and Nansen-Renault, all in hostile takeovers, all manufacturers of diesel technologies outside of the U.S. So, Cummins had effectively cornered the controlling share of the global market outside of North America and Western Europe. (Why do you think the splashgate at their website is so heavily global?)
(12) After nine months of negotiation, Cummins and its subsidiary, Allison Canada, entered into a joint development arrangement with Isuzu, owned by Daimler, and with the surviving U.S. corporation, Allison, which was at that point partly owned by GM. Cummins, however, dominated the partnership, and eventually managed to assume Daimler's and GM's interests in Isuzu and and Allison.
(13) In the case of Isuzu, Cummins has an equal partnership with Daimler, which, of course, has also acquired Chrysler Corporation. That's why, when Ford offered Cummins a billion-dollar package to manfacture medium and light truck diesels for its vehicles in 2001, Cummins said no. Again, for antitrust reasons, a public holding company was set up to handle Isuzu as a separate corporate entity. The name of the company is Benz Transporation Technologies, of San Paulo, Brazil. BTT also is a major owner of the Benz division of Daimler Chrysler, which manufacturers most of the diesel engines in Europe. In the case of Allison, Cummins controls it through a series of holding companies ending with Inquardo, Ltd., the orginal Caterpillar-Cummins creation in Brazil. Cummins also controls a fair-size block of stock in GM, through the ownership of a cartel of South Korean and Thai banks and investment groups.
(14) Navistar has continued its free-fall in spite of its partnership with Ford in the light-duty diesel area. Three weeks ago, after the implications of labor troubles, a rise in basic resource costs, and the disasterous introduction of the 6.0L PSD had become clear, Navistar's financial arrangements with Citibank and Manufacturers B&T collapsed. Both banks arranged to float the company infrastructural loans if it would agree to a merger with -- are you ready for this? -- Inquardo, Ltd. As of last Thursday, Cummins owns 67% of Navistar through Inquardo.
Right now, Cummins makes all diesels in all pickup trucks sold in the United States. Cummins makes 73% of all diesels in all trucks sold in the world. The board of directors at Inquardo -- which isn't listed on any stock exchange -- includes 9 Cummins execs, 2 Caterpillar execs, and one Wells Fargo Bank exec. The CEO and CFO are also Cummins vice presidents. And there are Cummins execs on the boards of Daimler Chrysler, General Motors, Toyota, and Honda America. Ford, the holdout, has not been doing very well.
So it isn't a question of who owns Cummins. It's a question of who Cummins owns, and who's next. Could be Ford. Could be DC. Could be both. Ford Viper, anyone? Mercedes Mustang with a 6.0L Shelby Diesel and a Holset twin turbo?
And some have claimed that the new Navistar/Ford 6.0L is Cummins' revenge for the Bosch VP44.
====
;D ;D ;D ;D
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08-14-2003, 08:46 PM
#8
It's my pot and I'll stir it if I want to. If you're not careful, I'll stir your's as well!
Re:History Of the B5.9 Engine
Gary, thanks for the great info. Was going to say thanks for the story but that would make it sound like you made the whole thing up. Just out of curiosity, how do know all these fine details? And why can't I find out the same info on the internet? Unless I am looking in the wrong places.
08-14-2003, 09:49 PM
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Re:History Of the B5.9 Engine
[quote author=Mexstan link=board=8;threadid=18249;start=#msg172740 date=1060911960]
Gary, thanks for the treat info. Was going to say thanks for the story but that would make it sound like you made the whole thing up. Just out of curiosity, how do know all these fine details? And why can't I find out the same info on the internet? Unless I am looking in the wrong places.
[/quote]
Stan, That was posted by someone else, I just saved it for future reference. I suspect that sort of detailed corporate info is best tracked down thru financial sources, rather than automotive - that's all high-roller corporate financial history...
BUT interesting reading, and I HAVE seen small bits and pieces of it thru other sources - just not as well prepared and detailed as that guy provided it...
Gary, thanks for the treat info. Was going to say thanks for the story but that would make it sound like you made the whole thing up. Just out of curiosity, how do know all these fine details? And why can't I find out the same info on the internet? Unless I am looking in the wrong places.
[/quote]
Stan, That was posted by someone else, I just saved it for future reference. I suspect that sort of detailed corporate info is best tracked down thru financial sources, rather than automotive - that's all high-roller corporate financial history...
BUT interesting reading, and I HAVE seen small bits and pieces of it thru other sources - just not as well prepared and detailed as that guy provided it...
08-14-2003, 10:07 PM
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Re:History Of the B5.9 Engine
Does anyone have any info on utility (stationary) motors in the 5.9 variety. I have a 93 that looks spookily like one that sits in front of a generator at my switch yard. I mean it looks the same rite down to the same size Holset turbo and acessories.
08-15-2003, 02:35 AM
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08-15-2003, 08:34 PM
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Re:History Of the B5.9 Engine
Gary, thanks! That was one heck of an interesting read!
WOW!
Just one unanswered question though: How does Isuzu end up designing the Duramax and being owned by GM?
-- BigC
Again, thanks!
WOW!
Just one unanswered question though: How does Isuzu end up designing the Duramax and being owned by GM?
-- BigC
Again, thanks!
08-15-2003, 09:17 PM
#14
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Re:History Of the B5.9 Engine
Check here. Not much, but it's something.http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/Facts/diesel_sales.htm
08-15-2003, 09:26 PM
#15
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Re:History Of the B5.9 Engine
[quote author=dana70 link=board=8;threadid=18249;start=0#msg172780 date=1060916826]
Does anyone have any info on utility (stationary) motors in the 5.9 variety. I have a 93 that looks spookily like one that sits in front of a generator at my switch yard. I mean it looks the same rite down to the same size Holset turbo and acessories.
[/quote]
If you get the CPL number off the timing housing I'll tell you about it (power rating, boost pressure). The Cummins B series has been used in everything from pickups to generators to forklifts to boats to backhoes to buses to irrigation pumps to bread trucks. It's amazing where you'll find them. They're not all turbocharged, the marine ones use a water cooled intercooler, and they use a variety of injection pumps, but it's all the same basic engine.
Does anyone have any info on utility (stationary) motors in the 5.9 variety. I have a 93 that looks spookily like one that sits in front of a generator at my switch yard. I mean it looks the same rite down to the same size Holset turbo and acessories.
[/quote]
If you get the CPL number off the timing housing I'll tell you about it (power rating, boost pressure). The Cummins B series has been used in everything from pickups to generators to forklifts to boats to backhoes to buses to irrigation pumps to bread trucks. It's amazing where you'll find them. They're not all turbocharged, the marine ones use a water cooled intercooler, and they use a variety of injection pumps, but it's all the same basic engine.
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