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cbrahs
10-21-2008, 02:10 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/19/AR2008021902336.html?hpid=opinionsbox1?=AR

Lary Ellis (Top)
10-21-2008, 02:15 PM
That guy is spot on.......I have yet to see Obama actually say anything worth listening to and despite what many here may believe other wise, I have listened hoping to hear what they THINK they are hearing.

cowboy2526
10-21-2008, 02:18 PM
Very good read thank you for the post.

cbrahs
10-21-2008, 02:18 PM
They can't hear when they can't see either Lary. the blinders are on and the ear muffs to follow. If they only would realize what would happen if he were to be elected. I guess hind site is 20/20 and they will be complaining as usual if he does get elected.

Lary Ellis (Top)
10-21-2008, 02:24 PM
They can't hear when they can't see either Lary. the blinders are on and the ear muffs to follow. If they only would realize what would happen if he were to be elected. I guess hind site is 20/20 and they will be complaining as usual if he does get elected.

You have to remember that many of us are older than a lot of Obamas supporters, we actually remember the threat that Socialism brings to this country and we are not as easily fooled by a sweet talker.

People have already forgotten 9/11 for the most part and the sacrifices made by Americans to keep us from becoming exactly what this Obama clown wants us to be. There are no illusions, his plans for the future do not include America first.

cbrahs
10-21-2008, 02:30 PM
very well spoken Lary. So true.

staarma
10-21-2008, 03:08 PM
That's right. His plans for this country go against everything this country and most of it's great people stand/stood/fought/fight for.

capt.Ron
10-21-2008, 03:13 PM
We also must remember that there are many old enough to remember the threat of socialism. They are hoping for it!!

BigHornCTD
10-21-2008, 03:26 PM
With all other issues aside, I cannot understand how any of our politicians can advocate that continuing this borrow and spend philosophy is in the best interests of this country.

MCMLV
10-21-2008, 05:15 PM
You have to remember that many of us are older than a lot of Obamas supporters, we actually remember the threat that Socialism brings to this country and we are not as easily fooled by a sweet talker.The reality is that there are very few people who want to bring socialism to the US. The vast majority of people who came here over the many years, recent and distant, including myself was to have a better life. I and so many more also came here to ESCAPE socialism and I do not want it back. I do like owning stuff, including my business. The threat of socialism is nothing more than a big club tho beat people over the head. The threat was not real when McCarthy pursued it, it was not real in the 70, 80, 90 and is not real now.
Of course you can believe what you want, but the idea is NOT to make everyone equal. I just as soon would pick up and leave. But it is important to make sure that nobody in our society is left below a certain level. It is in all of our interests. When the disparity between the top and the bottom extends to the point that the bottom feels despair and left out the unrest, social upheaval and unrest, crime etc. etc, become so disruptive and destructive that in today's global competition it becomes a weakness. A weakness that enemies, and ill wisher of our nation will exploit far more than you think.

To quote Adam Smith, regarded by many as the "father" of capitalism:
"What improves the circumstances of the greater part can never be regarded as an inconveniency to the whole. No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."

irocpractice
10-21-2008, 05:47 PM
mcmlv,would you be so good as to explain to me how 'bamas purported "changes" to our country under his administration differ fron this defination of Socialism from Wikipida?
"Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society.[1][2] Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.[3][4]

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.[1]

Socialism is not a discrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other. Another dividing feature of the socialist movement is the split on how a socialist economy should be established between the reformists and the revolutionaries. Some socialists advocate complete nationalization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy"
I would appreciate it if you could explain this to me in laymans terms.

Lary Ellis (Top)
10-21-2008, 05:51 PM
The reality is that there are very few people who want to bring socialism to the US. The vast majority of people who came here over the many years, recent and distant, including myself was to have a better life. I and so many more also came here to ESCAPE socialism and I do not want it back. I do like owning stuff, including my business. The threat of socialism is nothing more than a big club tho beat people over the head. The threat was not real when McCarthy pursued it, it was not real in the 70, 80, 90 and is not real now.
Of course you can believe what you want, but the idea is NOT to make everyone equal. I just as soon would pick up and leave. But it is important to make sure that nobody in our society is left below a certain level. It is in all of our interests. When the disparity between the top and the bottom extends to the point that the bottom feels despair and left out the unrest, social upheaval and unrest, crime etc. etc, become so disruptive and destructive that in today's global competition it becomes a weakness. A weakness that enemies, and ill wisher of our nation will exploit far more than you think.

To quote Adam Smith, regarded by many as the "father" of capitalism:
"What improves the circumstances of the greater part can never be regarded as an inconveniency to the whole. No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."

Socialism is a very real threat and always has been, you yourself came here to ESCAPE it by your own words. I too have seen it with my own eyes, you can wax on how it a good thing for us but if that were the case you would not have gone to the trouble of ESCAPING it.

Your actions speak much louder than your words and Americans are not as dumb as You and Obama think we are.

MCMLV
10-21-2008, 06:16 PM
Socialism is a very real threat and always has been, you yourself came here to ESCAPE it by your own words. I too have seen it with my own eyes, you can wax on how it a good thing for us but if that were the case you would not have gone to the trouble of ESCAPING it.

Your actions speak much louder than your words and Americans are not as dumb as You and Obama think we are.I am not sure I follow you,or that I made myself clear.
Let me recap. I am against socialism, I do not think it is good for anyone and I did not imply that it was good for some and not for me. As such I do not understand what my actions say so loudly.
BTW, where have you seen socialism and when?
I also fail to see where I have commented on the smartness a larger segment of any demographic.

MCMLV
10-21-2008, 06:30 PM
mcmlv,would you be so good as to explain to me how 'bamas purported "changes" to our country under his administration differ fron this defination of Socialism from Wikipida?
"Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society.[1][2] Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.[3][4]

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.[1]

Socialism is not a discrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other. Another dividing feature of the socialist movement is the split on how a socialist economy should be established between the reformists and the revolutionaries. Some socialists advocate complete nationalization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy"
I would appreciate it if you could explain this to me in laymans terms.I bolded and made red the relevant segment. I do not believe or recall that at any point the nationalization of the means of production has been proposed or even hinted. Collective ownership of the means of production, like factories, farms, utility companies, etc. are the centerpiece of socialist and communist systems.
In Eastern Europe, in the aftermath of the Russian revolution and its spread to the so called Eastern block countries, private property has been practically eliminated by nationalization. In other words everything was confiscated and made the property of the government, or as the government said the property of the people. That is the real "redistribution of wealth" when one day you own a large hose and next day you are told that you no longer own it and because it is too big for you another family or tow will share it with you and they will pay rent for it to the government.
It was the government who decided what and how much to produce, how much people of any job would get paid.
The only property left to some was a home that could not exceed personal/family need (one could not be a landlord and rent property) and in rural areas some land that one could not sustain a family on, but rather just have a "garden."

irocpractice
10-21-2008, 07:01 PM
mcm,again,how does'bama differ, from what he has said on the campaign trail,demonstrated by his voting record in his home state and,the definition given to you.We have under discussion Socalism,not Communism.[coffee]

MCMLV
10-21-2008, 07:10 PM
mcm,again,how does'bama differ, from what he has said on the campaign trail,demonstrated by his voting record in his home state and,the definition given to you.We have under discussion Socalism,not Communism.[coffee]I am not sure what specifically you are asking, but the most obvious difference is clearly the fact that Obama odes not want to take away you business, your farm, your too large house, or any other property that you have. He does not want to decide what business you should be engaged in, where to work or what you should produce.
Other than that I don't know what to tell you, but if you feel that he is trying to introduce socialism, why don't you describe how and why you feel that way and I'll tell you where I disagree.

Hvytrkmech
10-21-2008, 07:26 PM
Good read, thanks for sharing it.

03RAM2500
10-21-2008, 07:31 PM
I am not sure what specifically you are asking, but the most obvious difference is clearly the fact that Obama odes not want to take away you business, your farm, your too large house, or any other property that you have. He does not want to decide what business you should be engaged in, where to work or what you should produce.
Other than that I don't know what to tell you, but if you feel that he is trying to introduce socialism, why don't you describe how and why you feel that way and I'll tell you where I disagree.

No, he wants to take away from people that work hard and earn a honest living and "SPREAD THE WEALTH AROUND" to people that dont. I don't mind giving a "hand up" to anyone that needs it, but I will never give a "hand out" nor do I ever expect one. What obama is saying is that if you are on welfare, it is okay and we will take away from someone who is rich and has plenty of money and give it to you. There are plenty of people on welfare that actually need the help, but there are so many more that don't. Welfare was designed to help someone get back on their feet, not support generations of families. They are the ones that need to get off their butts, get a job, and work hard for a honest living. If you want to give your money away to some lazy person milking the system, go right ahead, but keep your hands out of my pockets!!!!!

Lary Ellis (Top)
10-21-2008, 07:32 PM
I am not sure I follow you,or that I made myself clear.
Let me recap. I am against socialism, I do not think it is good for anyone and I did not imply that it was good for some and not for me. As such I do not understand what my actions say so loudly.
BTW, where have you seen socialism and when?
I also fail to see where I have commented on the smartness a larger segment of any demographic.

You say you are against Socialism but in the same breath you support a Socialist for office knowing full well his intent to "spread the wealth". The ONLY way you can spread the wealth is by taking it away from someone else, that is socialism.

I spent a great deal of time out of this country in places where Socialism is the way of life and saw first hand the toll it took on the citizens there. While they preach how good it is for the downtrodden, the actual truth is that they are held down by the very Govt that claims to be for them.

In earlier conversations with you, you already know my history and also why I can not name the places or times in this forum, you can choose to believe it or not, it doesn't change the fact that Socialism is very real and a threat to our country.

03RAM2500
10-21-2008, 07:40 PM
You say you are against Socialism but in the same breath you support a Socialist for office knowing full well his intent to "spread the wealth". The ONLY way you can spread the wealth is by taking it away from someone else, that is socialism.

I spent a great deal of time out of this country in places where Socialism is the way of life and saw first hand the toll it took on the citizens there. While they preach how good it is for the downtrodden, the actual truth is that they are held down by the very Govt that claims to be for them.

In earlier conversations with you, you already know my history and also why I can not name the places or times in this forum, you can choose to believe it or not, it doesn't change the fact that Socialism is very real and a threat to our country.

Funny how there are so many of us on this site with the same view and able to see beyond obama's majic words. It really amazes me the few on here that have the blinders on. These trucks are not cheap so it seems that most actually work for a living. I don't understand how any hard working AMERICAN could vote for obama.

laramie5.9
10-21-2008, 07:48 PM
Not totally up to speed on what Obama wants to do, so correct me if I am wrong, I believe he wants to give a tax break to people who earn 250,000 grand or less. If this is correct and he didn't say "Spread the wealth around", but just talked about the tax break for said group, would that be Socialist? To me he is giving the blue collar worker a break, which as I was raised the heart of a country.

cbrahs
10-21-2008, 07:56 PM
the thing is with his "tax breaks" and increased taxes to the rich (who own companies, manufacture items for daily use and needs) the decrease in our taxes (those who make less than $250k) would be nice but the increased taxes on the "rich", the end result would be increased prices for goods. They will not lose their profit margin hence raise prices for their goods that we need. end result we will be paying more for items.

MCMLV
10-21-2008, 08:10 PM
You say you are against Socialism but in the same breath you support a Socialist for office knowing full well his intent to "spread the wealth". The ONLY way you can spread the wealth is by taking it away from someone else, that is socialism.I guess I just do not see him as a socialist. I really do not. I am a pragmatist and I believe that he is the better choice. I will not pretend to know what exactly Obama meant by the "spread the wealth" remark, I can only tell you what I understood it to mean. I do not believe he meant taking your money or mine and giving it to the next guy who has less. To me it meant making some pay more so that those who have less will also have the opportunity to make more. I also realize that it can be construed that other way but I do not agree with that interpretation. It is not a cut and dry matter. There are a lot of things we as a nation need to improve, above all I think education, roads, and on and on. The money HAS to come from somewhere or it will not be done and we ALL will be worse off and weaker.
I also realize that I as anyone else could be wrong. I still can only act the way I honestly believe is the better way.

I spent a great deal of time out of this country in places where Socialism is the way of life and saw first hand the toll it took on the citizens there. While they preach how good it is for the downtrodden, the actual truth is that they are held down by the very Govt that claims to be for them.

In earlier conversations with you, you already know my history and also why I can not name the places or times in this forum, you can choose to believe it or not, it doesn't change the fact that Socialism is very real and a threat to our country.Lapse on my part, I thought about other trips you may have taken, sorry.
I fully agree with all you said there about how bad socialism has been everywhere where it has been introduced or attempted.
But in the aftermath of the fall of the iron curtain, China producing millionaires at almost the same rate as junk, I just do not feel that socialism is such a great threat. That is not to say that we should not be vigilant. And yes I did vote for Reagan for the very reason I believed that he could do what he did, certainly not for his economics. At the time I felt that that was the priority. I was wrong in voting for Carter but when Ford said in the debate that 'there were no Russian tanks in Poland' I deemed him incompetent.
I did vote for the older Bush, voted for Perot and Clinton the second time.

laramie5.9
10-21-2008, 08:16 PM
Prices will go up regardless of the tax issue any ways as these said companies will not want to lose their profit margin. The way I see it this situation is going to be a lose lose one. As for my second question nobody has answer in regards as how is the tax break/increase is socialist if Obama didn't use the term "Spread the wealth".

capt.Ron
10-21-2008, 08:22 PM
Not totally up to speed on what Obama wants to do, so correct me if I am wrong, I believe he wants to give a tax break to people who earn 250,000 grand or less.
Well he has "recently" said that folks earning from 200-250K would recieve no tax increase. Everyone below the 200K would receive a tax cut.
What he fails to tell us is that 40% of Americans pay no income tax at all but will still receive a check funded by those of us that do indeed pay taxes.
call it what you want but there is nothing fair about someone who earns their paycheck day in and day out having to give part of it up to some who hasn't earned it.

If this is correct and he didn't say "Spread the wealth around", but just talked about the tax break for said group, would that be Socialist?
Yes it would. The only reason why those words matter is it verifies his socialist mindset.
To me he is giving the blue collar worker a break, which as I was raised the heart of a country.
Why not give ALL wage earners a break? Why should we play this class warfare game and punish the most successful while at the same time handing money over to folks who paid no income tax??

capt.Ron
10-21-2008, 08:35 PM
I do not believe he meant taking your money or mine and giving it to the next guy who has less.
Well if his plan (as he says it does) is going to take tax dollars from those of us who pay in and give it those who do not it can't be anything less.

To me it meant making some pay more so that those who have less will also have the opportunity to make more.
I'm not sure how giving someone a check derived from taxes paid in by someone else is going to provide those opportunities?
What I do see is that those businesses that get taxed more are going to raise their prices thus passing that cost down to all of us including those who received a payment out of the pockets of others.
So in actuality this would hurt tax payers through higher prices for goods and services that we pay for.
Not exactly something that would be good for our economy.

laramie5.9
10-21-2008, 08:37 PM
So with 40% of people paying no tax and recieving a cheque funded by the tax payers, that tells me that 40% of Americans are on welfare, is that correct?

MCMLV
10-21-2008, 08:39 PM
Well he has "recently" said that folks earning from 200-250K would recieve no tax increase. Everyone below the 200K would receive a tax cut.
What he fails to tell us is that 40% of Americans pay no income tax at all but will still receive a check funded by those of us that do indeed pay taxes.
call it what you want but there is nothing fair about someone who earns their paycheck day in and day out having to give part of it up to some who hasn't earned it.Maybe I was missing this all along, but for the world of me I can not find where does it say that those who do not pay anything will get money. Can you show us that, but please form a common and credible source.
Thanks.

MCMLV
10-21-2008, 08:43 PM
Well if his plan (as he says it does) is going to take tax dollars from those of us who pay in and give it those who do not it can't be anything less.That would, but is it really so?

BigHornCTD
10-21-2008, 09:04 PM
mcmlv,would you be so good as to explain to me how 'bamas purported "changes" to our country under his administration differ fron this defination of Socialism from Wikipida?
"Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society.[1][2] Modern socialism originated in the late nineteenth-century working class political movement. Karl Marx posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution which represents the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.[3][4]

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.[1]

Socialism is not a discrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other. Another dividing feature of the socialist movement is the split on how a socialist economy should be established between the reformists and the revolutionaries. Some socialists advocate complete nationalization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; while others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy"
I would appreciate it if you could explain this to me in laymans terms.

While I might agree with MCMLV that there may not be many people in this country that truely advocate socialism, it's becoming obvious that many of them (apparently a majority at this point) are aligning themselves with socialist ideals whether they know it or not. Obama made the "spread the wealth around" comment and you can interpret it any way you want, but I would hope he [Obama] is smart enough to understand his own quote and how closely it resembles the first sentence I highlighted above. It's also important to note that many of Obamas 'tax cuts' are refundable credits to anyone within certain income guidelines, including those who owe no taxes. IMO that is blatant redistribution of wealth.

As far as the second highlighted sentence, our current government has already started down that road with the passage of the bail out bill. Again, knowingly or not, they are pushing this country closer and closer to socialist ideals. I personally will not vote for anyone who voted in favor of this bill. That includes one of Montana's senators, and also includes Obama and McCain.

But this also begs a question. Is Socialism inevitable in society as a result of greed and immorality?

MCMLV
10-21-2008, 09:20 PM
It is reported that Obama and his wife made around 4 million dollars last year. Are we to believe that he is willing to give it up and make just as much as the next person? I find that hard to believe.

It is a correct assessment that there are strong tendencies that for a lack of a better word are socialist or socialist like. It is important also to recognize that they are limited to a very narrow aspect of American life. More precisely it is health care and retirement.
I do not view them as socialist but as pragmatist and ultimately self serving capitalist in the true spirit of Adam Smith, that is why I quotes that paragraph. It is inevitable, as with just about any human endeavor, to ensure total exclusion of abuse.

capt.Ron
10-21-2008, 09:21 PM
Maybe I was missing this all along, but for the world of me I can not find where does it say that those who do not pay anything will get money. Can you show us that, but please form a common and credible source.
Thanks.
This from the
Clinton News network
The Facts

Obama, on his Web site, promises to "cut taxes for 95 percent of working families." He and his campaign officials have, at times, inaccurately described his plan as a tax cut for "95 percent of Americans." His economic policy adviser Jason Furman told CNN that the figure applies to working people and leaves out retirees.

Obama is offering a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500. Furman says the credit will go to 95 percent of American workers. It is designed to offset payroll taxes, which are different from federal income taxes. Payroll taxes include the fees the government takes out of paychecks to supply funding to Social Security and Medicare. Approximately 40 percent of Americans do not pay federal income taxes, according to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center. But many of those people do pay payroll taxes. Those who pay federal income taxes would have the tax credit come out of what they owe the government; those who don't pay federal income taxes would receive a check in the mail.

Obama, on his Web site, describes the tax credit as a means to "cut income taxes for working families to offset the payroll tax they pay." So, when McCain refers to Obama as promising to "cut income taxes" through those tax credits, he is on firm ground.

Furman told CNN that funding for the tax credit would come in part from the tax increases Obama is calling on couples making at least $250,000 and individuals making at least $200,000. So, when McCain says the tax credits given to people who don't pay income taxes would be funded by "taxing other people," that is accurate.
It doesn't get much Clearer than that.
Now I find Fox News more credible but I know you would have balked at it so I picked something more your style.

capt.Ron
10-21-2008, 09:24 PM
So with 40% of people paying no tax and recieving a cheque funded by the tax payers, that tells me that 40% of Americans are on welfare, is that correct?
No that means that their income is low enough that they aren't required to pay income tax.

MCMLV
10-21-2008, 09:29 PM
But this also begs a question. Is Socialism inevitable in society as a result of greed and immorality?I don't believe that, but rather see tendencies, as you pointed out, as a measure of checking or remedying the results of abuse in the other direction.

One must keep in mind that in the world we live today where information is so widely disseminated, where consumerism is celebrated, where excesses by celebrities and CEOs are widely publicized, where discoveries in medicine make people famous, even those who can not "make it to the big leagues" want to at least remain healthy and not go to bed hungry. More importantly they want to believe that the opportunity is there for them also and not feel disenfranchised and hopeless.

cbrahs
10-21-2008, 09:38 PM
I don't believe that, but rather see tendencies, as you pointed out, as a measure of checking or remedying the results of abuse in the other direction.

One must keep in mind that in the world we live today where information is so widely disseminated, where consumerism is celebrated, where excesses by celebrities and CEOs are widely publicized, where discoveries in medicine make people famous, even those who can not "make it to the big leagues" want to at least remain healthy and not go to bed hungry. More importantly they want to believe that the opportunity is there for them also and not feel disenfranchised and hopeless.

The opportunity is there for everyone right now. just get off their tails and work for it. I was in the military for nearly 8 years, now a disabled vet. After my divorce in 2000 i moved to Idaho to work for my parents driving truck hauling cattle. After a bit over 2 years of driving and not seeing my kids on a biweekly basis, i could not handle it anymore. I packed up my stuff, sold my 98 Pete and trailer and moved to Albuqueruqe with NO job, NO place to stay but after working my tail off for the last 6 years, I own my house, have a nice truck, decent furniture, great relationship with my kids, my ex and I get along, own a business, have a WONDERFUL relationship with GOD and I feel blessed to have what I have and I did not get it by getting a handout. I worked for every cent I have and every item in my possession by the grace of God. My kids are happy, I am happy and I see them ALL the time. so you can't tell me that there is no opportunity for people to "make it" in our current day. Nothing come for free and no one "make it" by sitting on their tails. I am sure you would agree being a business owner that it is hard work. I often work 7 days a week without a day off to please my customers and my reputation precedes me and my level of customer service. All of my advertising in the New Mexico area is by word of mouth. Actually starting TV commercials within the next month or so.

SO get off your tails and work. Stop waiting for a handout!

laramie5.9
10-21-2008, 09:57 PM
No that means that their income is low enough that they aren't required to pay income tax. How low would that be? I am not familiar with the tax system in the US. I am trying to learn about whats going on in the US as like everyone I can only speak from what I think I know.

capt.Ron
10-21-2008, 10:08 PM
How low would that be? I am not familiar with the tax system in the US. I am trying to learn about whats going on in the US as like everyone I can only speak from what I think I know.

I'm not sure what that number is..... I've never had an income low enough and I've worked pretty cheap in my past. It makes you wonder what kind of person would work for such a low wage for any significant amount of time.
I know some folks are less fortunate but I just can't see it unless there is some type of major handicap involved.

BigHornCTD
10-21-2008, 10:15 PM
How low would that be? I am not familiar with the tax system in the US. I am trying to learn about whats going on in the US as like everyone I can only speak from what I think I know.

There is no set number to reference. Through a combination of exemptions, deductions and credits, an individual's taxable income, and/or the amount of tax due can be reduced to the point that they owe nothing. In some cases, an individual can even end up getting a refund beyond what they paid in.

So it all depends on the above circumstances which are variable.

BTW, if you can get a good grasp on our tax system, you will be ahead of the majority of Americans. [laugh]

capt.Ron
10-21-2008, 10:22 PM
One must keep in mind that in the world we live today where information is so widely disseminated, where consumerism is celebrated, where excesses by celebrities and CEOs are widely publicized, where discoveries in medicine make people famous, even those who can not "make it to the big leagues" want to at least remain healthy and not go to bed hungry. More importantly they want to believe that the opportunity is there for them also and not feel disenfranchised and hopeless.

A person must make their own way. It's not the govt.s job to provide it for them.
I worked in manufacturing for 20 yrs. good pay but nothing to make me rich. I then decided to go it on my own. 3 yrs into a health care business (something I knew absolutely nothing about) and I'm rockin like nobodies business. I owe nothing to anyone with the exception of my house payment which is under 1 grand per month. My point is not to brag but to point out that if a small town boy with just a high school education can do what I've done it shouldn't be that hard for others earn their little piece of heaven as well.
BTW- I was no genius in school either, I ranked 72 out of 114.

BigHornCTD
10-21-2008, 10:43 PM
I don't believe that, but rather see tendencies, as you pointed out, as a measure of checking or remedying the results of abuse in the other direction.

One must keep in mind that in the world we live today where information is so widely disseminated, where consumerism is celebrated, where excesses by celebrities and CEOs are widely publicized, where discoveries in medicine make people famous, even those who can not "make it to the big leagues" want to at least remain healthy and not go to bed hungry. More importantly they want to believe that the opportunity is there for them also and not feel disenfranchised and hopeless.

Most of us won't make it to the big leagues, but everyone has the opportunity to improve their lives. I am all about helping someone out in the short-term, and that only requires gratitude and ambition on their part. However long-term support is detrimental to their ambition, and gratitude goes by the way side when support becomes expected. I have witnessed this first hand within my own family, and I am sure others have as well.

I would also like to point out that greed and immorality are prevalent throughout society, whether someone is rich or poor. Thus the reference to inevitable Socialism as a result.

staarma
10-22-2008, 09:38 AM
I guess I've missed all along how to raise my kids and apparently my parents didn't do it right either. I should be giving my kids money and all the answers to home work to help them. Instead I've been trying to teach them the value of hardwork and the accomplishment of researching and finding the answers on their own. After all I tell them, the info is there you just have to work to find it. Your way is in front of you just open your eyes and get busy. I guess I'll stop doing that. Maybe in the next couple years they will be turned around. Once I get them turned around they will be just the student needed for Obama's handout plan. They'll maybe have a leg up on the rest so they can get a bigger handout. Also, with the education plan they will only need to be a mediocre student but still get all the benefits of everyone's hard work. Boy talk about a proud parent.[roll] Man, I'm gald we are having this discussion as I almost ruined my kids. I better spread the word huh?

irocpractice
10-22-2008, 10:58 AM
mcmlv,may I suggest you familarize your self with the Jamestown settlement of 1607 which demonstrated class warfare between tradesmen and gentlemen.Your concept of helping people although noble,has been proven to be an abject failure as demonstrated by "the great societies" help since 1965 resulting in 5th generation welfare with no familial head of household.These two simple references aptly demonstrate the very human traits of greed and immorality.And,although the sophism of your questions is to be of lite entertainment,may I respectfully offer to you that you might wish to peruse "the web" for answers to your questions rather being spoon fed replies to which you obviously intend to disagree.[laugh]

BigHornCTD
10-22-2008, 11:11 AM
Since when is DTR not considered "The Web"? :D

irocpractice
10-22-2008, 11:29 AM
Thanks Big Horn for tempering my morning.I Kneel suitably chastised.[laugh]

MCMLV
10-22-2008, 06:56 PM
This from the
Clinton News network

It doesn't get much Clearer than that.
Now I find Fox News more credible but I know you would have balked at it so I picked something more your style.It does seem that way does it not? Perhaps you will call me "unreasonable" and I am not trying to be, BUT here is the way I see this.
After you posted that last night, it got me really thinking that I was wrong in the way I perceived this. So I had to dig for myself because I felt that you were a bit too biased against Obama. Anyway, what I did is I asked a guy I know to show me his pay stub. He makes $15.48 an hour and excluding his federal taxes he is withheld weekly $45.60 in FICA taxes which is way more than his federal tax of $28.37. Then he is withheld $8.75 for state and $5.51 for unemployment insurance. That is a total of $59.86 a week and $3112.72 a year. That is money he earns and is taken away from him. If he gets $500.00 a year back from that I definitively can not call that socialism or wealth redistribution.
In contrast to that take Palin and her mailing $3260.00 to every Alaskan from money collected from the oil companies. How is that not socialism and wealth redistribution?
Also take a look at McCain's stance on tax cuts at:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwtayJCK5LY&eurl=http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=114857

MCMLV
10-22-2008, 07:35 PM
The opportunity is there for everyone right now. just get off their tails and work for it. I was in the military for nearly 8 years, now a disabled vet. After my divorce in 2000 i moved to Idaho to work for my parents driving truck hauling cattle. After a bit over 2 years of driving and not seeing my kids on a biweekly basis, i could not handle it anymore. I packed up my stuff, sold my 98 Pete and trailer and moved to Albuqueruqe with NO job, NO place to stay but after working my tail off for the last 6 years, I own my house, have a nice truck, decent furniture, great relationship with my kids, my ex and I get along, own a business, have a WONDERFUL relationship with GOD and I feel blessed to have what I have and I did not get it by getting a handout. I worked for every cent I have and every item in my possession by the grace of God. My kids are happy, I am happy and I see them ALL the time. so you can't tell me that there is no opportunity for people to "make it" in our current day. Nothing come for free and no one "make it" by sitting on their tails. I am sure you would agree being a business owner that it is hard work. I often work 7 days a week without a day off to please my customers and my reputation precedes me and my level of customer service. All of my advertising in the New Mexico area is by word of mouth. Actually starting TV commercials within the next month or so.

SO get off your tails and work. Stop waiting for a handout!

A person must make their own way. It's not the govt.s job to provide it for them.
I worked in manufacturing for 20 yrs. good pay but nothing to make me rich. I then decided to go it on my own. 3 yrs into a health care business (something I knew absolutely nothing about) and I'm rockin like nobodies business. I owe nothing to anyone with the exception of my house payment which is under 1 grand per month. My point is not to brag but to point out that if a small town boy with just a high school education can do what I've done it shouldn't be that hard for others earn their little piece of heaven as well.
BTW- I was no genius in school either, I ranked 72 out of 114.

I agree in principle with both of you and can prove that by my own example.
I came to the USA from communist Romania back in the 70s with a suitcase, yes to escape socialism/communism. Since then I been married for 29 years, raised two kids, put both of them through expensive universities. They earned their admissions, I was glad to pay.
Our son was commissioned as a Second Lt. in the Army on his graduation. No, ROTC did not pay for his schooling. He was part of the first Stryker Brigade to be deployed to Iraq and as Larry can tell you there was no prouder person in this country than I was about my son's service. Unfortunately now he is a disabled vet. going through some difficult time, but he and us as a family will be OK with time. And no, neither he or my wife and I are bitter or angry, but hopeful and proud. He served our country with honor and valor as his decorations attest to.
In the same spirit I am grateful for your and all the vets' here, service.
Our daughter graduated with high honors, wrote an honors thesis, was published and is curently working at medical research lab and applied to med school.
I am writing this not to boast at all but to support the notion that hard work and diligence is the key to success. All that we achieved is the result of our work. No one ever gave us even advice, nor have I ever asked anyone for anything. I worked as a waiter, butcher, plumber, mover, when I could not work as an engineer. I worked on nuclear power plans all over this country, but as you know after the Three Mile Island accident and Chernobyl the industry went South. Since then I worked in maintenance and now have my own small business. I have NEVER not worked. Bottom line we as a family feel blessed and VERY fortunate.
I also realize that many are not, some simply being lazy, others just unlucky I guess. There are children growing up in inner cities that have life stacked very high against them. I believe that we as a society have the obligation, because of our success, to somehow try to give them also the opening that many of us are or were blessed with.
As such I believe in government programs designed to help such as education, job training, early child development and so on. Unavoidably some end up as hand outs and some will abuse any system. That should not stop us from doing these programs, but make us try to make them more efficient and better.
I also believe that through education alone can we change the mind frame of those who are less willing to be as productive as we.

cbrahs, I am genuinely glad that you are achieving your goals and you find joy with your loved ones. Success to you in the future and to you too capt.

On edit: And YES, I learned to speak and write in English, even if at times a bit confusing. I think more immigrants (legal) should.

MCMLV
10-22-2008, 08:11 PM
mcmlv,may I suggest you familarize your self with the Jamestown settlement of 1607 which demonstrated class warfare between tradesmen and gentlemen.Your concept of helping people although noble,has been proven to be an abject failure as demonstrated by "the great societies" help since 1965 resulting in 5th generation welfare with no familial head of household.These two simple references aptly demonstrate the very human traits of greed and immorality.And,although the sophism of your questions is to be of lite entertainment,may I respectfully offer to you that you might wish to peruse "the web" for answers to your questions rather being spoon fed replies to which you obviously intend to disagree.[laugh]In this little time all I could find that pertains to the issue here is the land distribution in 3 acre plots and the Polish artisans' refusal to work if not allowed to work. Obviously not enough to draw the right lesson you were pointing to. Would you please elaborate on the connection or point to some relevant reading you had in mind.
I assure that I was not trying to confuse anyone, as such your accusation of sophism is misplaced. Nor did I pose any questions that I received spoon fed answers to, although I do disagree with many positions here, at times even a bit too heatedly. Please elaborate without what I perceive as your sophism.

cbrahs
10-22-2008, 11:38 PM
cbrahs, I am genuinely glad that you are achieving your goals and you find joy with your loved ones. Success to you in the future and to you too capt.

thank you M.

staarma
10-23-2008, 09:27 AM
I was told this last weekend by a person that they had heard Chris Rock say once that only in America are the poor people obese. I thought about that and can come to one conclusion. The handouts are out of hand. I'm against anyone who says they will fix it with more of my money.

capt.Ron
10-23-2008, 10:56 AM
I agree in principle with both of you and can prove that by my own example.
I came to the USA from communist Romania back in the 70s with a suitcase, yes to escape socialism/communism. Since then I been married for 29 years, raised two kids, put both of them through expensive universities. They earned their admissions, I was glad to pay.
Our son was commissioned as a Second Lt. in the Army on his graduation. No, ROTC did not pay for his schooling. He was part of the first Stryker Brigade to be deployed to Iraq and as Larry can tell you there was no prouder person in this country than I was about my son's service. Unfortunately now he is a disabled vet. going through some difficult time, but he and us as a family will be OK with time. And no, neither he or my wife and I are bitter or angry, but hopeful and proud. He served our country with honor and valor as his decorations attest to.
In the same spirit I am grateful for your and all the vets' here, service.
Our daughter graduated with high honors, wrote an honors thesis, was published and is curently working at medical research lab and applied to med school.
I am writing this not to boast at all but to support the notion that hard work and diligence is the key to success. All that we achieved is the result of our work. No one ever gave us even advice, nor have I ever asked anyone for anything. I worked as a waiter, butcher, plumber, mover, when I could not work as an engineer. I worked on nuclear power plans all over this country, but as you know after the Three Mile Island accident and Chernobyl the industry went South. Since then I worked in maintenance and now have my own small business. I have NEVER not worked. Bottom line we as a family feel blessed and VERY fortunate.
I also realize that many are not, some simply being lazy, others just unlucky I guess. There are children growing up in inner cities that have life stacked very high against them. I believe that we as a society have the obligation, because of our success, to somehow try to give them also the opening that many of us are or were blessed with.
As such I believe in government programs designed to help such as education, job training, early child development and so on. Unavoidably some end up as hand outs and some will abuse any system. That should not stop us from doing these programs, but make us try to make them more efficient and better.
I also believe that through education alone can we change the mind frame of those who are less willing to be as productive as we.

cbrahs, I am genuinely glad that you are achieving your goals and you find joy with your loved ones. Success to you in the future and to you too capt.

On edit: And YES, I learned to speak and write in English, even if at times a bit confusing. I think more immigrants (legal) should.

Thank you and your son for his service and thank you for being a productive part of our society!!
You are a perfect example of the kind of immigrants that we need here!!

Mike D
10-23-2008, 11:13 AM
We can all relate to the immigrant experience if we dig down in our own family tree. What MCMLV has wrote concerning his own family rings true to me and is one of the many reasons why I love my (our) country. Thanks MCMLV.

patdaly
10-23-2008, 12:37 PM
How low would that be? I am not familiar with the tax system in the US. I am trying to learn about whats going on in the US as like everyone I can only speak from what I think I know.

Here you go, understand, this is current law, Obama proposes to raise it.

http://www.uwex.edu/ces/econ/fed_eic_detail.html

And more specifically:

http://www.uwex.edu/ces/econ/fed_eic_detail.html#What%20are%20the%20income%20li mits%20for%20the%20EIC

"The EIC is availabile to workers with low to moderate incomes. Income limits depend on family size:
bullet Working families with one child are eligible with income up to $33,241 (or $35,241 if married);
bullet Working families with two or more children are eligible with income up to $37,783 (or $39,783 if married);
bullet Workers without children are eligible with income up to $12,590 (or $14,590 if married)."

So, with a "normal job" and 1 kid, you would qualify for EIC up to roughly 16 bucks an hour, with 2 kids, a shade over 18 bucks an hour. Those figures are for single parents, married would be higher.

I can show you a TON of people raising their families on less than this amount.

But then, once the Dems. get their tentacles on you, what sane person would vote someone who is giving you monay out of office?

patdaly
10-23-2008, 12:40 PM
Anyway, what I did is I asked a guy I know to show me his pay stub. He makes $15.48 an hour and excluding his federal taxes he is withheld weekly $45.60 in FICA taxes which is way more than his federal tax of $28.37. Then he is withheld $8.75 for state and $5.51 for unemployment insurance. That is a total of $59.86 a week and $3112.72 a year. That is money he earns and is taken away from him.

Does he have a kid?

If so, he qualifies for EIC, and will not only get back every PENNY of that FIT, plus some of a poor stiffs contributions who makes more than him.

laramie5.9
10-23-2008, 03:16 PM
patdaly,
Thanks for the info, must read it all to completely understand it all. So after a quick peruse the top out of $39,783(wife and kids) now to 250,000(wife and kids) Obama, am I correct?

patdaly
10-23-2008, 06:15 PM
No, Obama's plan might raise that figure of 39K, but it is nowhere near the 250K range. He is blowing smoke and mirrors about lowering taxes on those making less than 250K.

I will have to try and dig through the baloney to see where he wants to raise the EIC limit to.

Most Democratic plans though usually run benefits to around 80K. ( for example, our wonderful Governor of this state wanted to expand the SCHIP program ( socialized medicine for kids ) to families making up to 83K.

Yea, like we can afford that.

MCMLV
10-24-2008, 04:27 PM
We can all relate to the immigrant experience if we dig down in our own family tree. What MCMLV has wrote concerning his own family rings true to me and is one of the many reasons why I love my (our) country. Thanks MCMLV.While I do take pride in what my family has achieved and AM grateful for the opportunity that I truly believe does not exist in many other places if at all (Australia it pretty awesome too) I also know first hand of instances where people who came here chose to be free loaders of tried to exploit what they considered "dumb Americans" I am glad that for them it did not work.
I got this joke that sort of sums up the spirit shared here by us:

A beautiful genie appeared, one day, to a destitute refugee claimant outside the Immigration Office. "My good man" the genie said, "I've been told to grant you three wishes since you just arrived in the United States with your wife and three children."

The man told the genie, "Well, where I come from we don't have good teeth, so I want new teeth, maybe a lot of gold in them." The genie looked at the man's almost toothless grin and -PING!- he had brand new shining set of gold teeth in his mouth!

"What else?" asked the genie, "Two more to go." The refugee claimant now got bolder. "I need a big house with a three car garage in, on the water with eight bedrooms for my family. I bring them all over here."

-PING!- In the distance there could be seen a beautiful mansion with a three car garage, a long driveway, a walkout patio with a BBQ pit, pool, in an upscale neighbourhood overlooking the bay.

"One more wish", the genie said waving her wand. "Yes, one more wish, I want to be like an American with American clothes instead of these torn clothes and a baseball cap instead of this turban."

-PING!- The man was transformed, wearing worn out jeans, a Baltimore Orioles T-Shirt, and a baseball cap. He had his bad teeth back, the mansion disappeared from the horizon.

"What happened to my new teeth?" he wailed. "Where's my new house!?" The genie said, "Tough stuff, Mac. Now you are a American, if you want something you have to work hard, earn the money and get it yourself!"