Finally! Two years of waiting, and Con FE is done!!
04-13-2006, 04:03 PM
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Finally! Two years of waiting, and Con FE is done!!
I'm so excited!!
Just got the Con FE in after much logistical gyration getting the flywheel cut for an oversized pilot bearing and finding a special machine to get the resurfacing right.
Is it grabby? Heck, yes. Lift the pedal in 1st gear and you are gone. But there's ZERO shuddering and burping. It just goes from zero to hero in a blink with no drama.
Second Gear launches are smooth, too. No runs, no drips, no errors, so to speak. No need for giving it skinny pedal or easing the clutch out. Just lift the left foot and off you go.
I can see how someone might not want this clutch for towing, as making small movements (like a couple inches or so) appear to be impossible, or nearly so.
There's one quirk I'm getting used to . The "feel" of the clutch pedal changes a lot. Instead of feeling like your stepping on a huge lever, it feels like the pedal travel has dropped a lot. It's hard to describe the change in feel; almost like you are clutching with your ankle instead of your knees.
A lot of this has to do with the pedal effort curve (i.e., how much pedal effort varies across the pedal travel). Initial effort is very low (lower than stock), and gets stiffer as you get to the floor.
The stock clutch is more linear, with more initial effort and less (comparatively) as you go down. In other words, the stocker is a flat plateau of 1000feet, and the FE is a ramp that start at sea level and end up at 1500feet (sorry for the lame analogy).
I *love* the solid feel of it- no mush.
Shifting is the same after the install as before, so that points to everything being properly installed. I wish I had my digicam to take pics!
I elected to go with the FE despite people saying how bad it might be and how it chatters or such. The FE just works well for my driving style. For example, when I back out of a parking space, I just bump the clutch and push it right back in. Others probably ease the clutch out and try to slip it for precision. Not me. I either have it in or out. The FE is good with this style.
The only "chatter" isn't chatter at all-- it's spring wrap from the rear end. The clutch hooks so hard and so fast that it will wrap the springs up a little bit and give you some axle hop. It's barely noticeable; not at all like the severe wrap you'd experience on icy roads, for example. This *only* happens in 1st or reverse, and it's very minor.
I like the FE very much in the few miles I've driven it. Here's some other recommendations I'd make:
-- Install an oversized pilot bearing! I installed the monstrous TK75 from Quad 4x4. Once you see how wimpy the stock unit is, you can easily see why the fail so fast. Just compare far left to far right:
Finally, make ABSOLUTELY sure that the flywheel is resurfaced ONLY ON A FLYWHEEL MACHINE! This is not just turning on a lathe, fellas. We're talking about a $12K machine that ONLY does flywheels, making a super-smooth surface with wear marks that radiate outward from the middle of the (radially from the hub). Do NOT try to do it on a brake lathe or something else-- ONLY ON A FLYWHEEL MACHINE. When done this way, the flywheel will have a nearly mirror finish to it, and while you can *see* the grinding marks radiating outward, you CANNOT feel them with your fingers or nails.
I had a machine shop bore out the center of the flywheel to allow for the press fit of the new pilot bearing (far right TK75). Interference is .0015" I also had the shop leave a 1/8" register in the enlarged hole to that the bearing would "bottom out" on the register and seat instead of being held ONLY by the press fit. This is somewhat mentioned in the TK75 flyer, but it doesn't tell you HOW MUCH register to leave. I guessed at 1/8" and it ended up working very well.
Make sure that runout is LESS THAN .001" piloted off the center hole, or you could have big problems later from a hole that's not on-center.
I went to great lengths to "do it right", and I'm thus far convinced that most of the bad manners people report from the FE have to do with installation errors or improper flywheel prep.
Smarty went to #9 for good
Justin
Just got the Con FE in after much logistical gyration getting the flywheel cut for an oversized pilot bearing and finding a special machine to get the resurfacing right.
Is it grabby? Heck, yes. Lift the pedal in 1st gear and you are gone. But there's ZERO shuddering and burping. It just goes from zero to hero in a blink with no drama.
Second Gear launches are smooth, too. No runs, no drips, no errors, so to speak. No need for giving it skinny pedal or easing the clutch out. Just lift the left foot and off you go.
I can see how someone might not want this clutch for towing, as making small movements (like a couple inches or so) appear to be impossible, or nearly so.
There's one quirk I'm getting used to . The "feel" of the clutch pedal changes a lot. Instead of feeling like your stepping on a huge lever, it feels like the pedal travel has dropped a lot. It's hard to describe the change in feel; almost like you are clutching with your ankle instead of your knees.
A lot of this has to do with the pedal effort curve (i.e., how much pedal effort varies across the pedal travel). Initial effort is very low (lower than stock), and gets stiffer as you get to the floor.
The stock clutch is more linear, with more initial effort and less (comparatively) as you go down. In other words, the stocker is a flat plateau of 1000feet, and the FE is a ramp that start at sea level and end up at 1500feet (sorry for the lame analogy).
I *love* the solid feel of it- no mush.
Shifting is the same after the install as before, so that points to everything being properly installed. I wish I had my digicam to take pics!
I elected to go with the FE despite people saying how bad it might be and how it chatters or such. The FE just works well for my driving style. For example, when I back out of a parking space, I just bump the clutch and push it right back in. Others probably ease the clutch out and try to slip it for precision. Not me. I either have it in or out. The FE is good with this style.
The only "chatter" isn't chatter at all-- it's spring wrap from the rear end. The clutch hooks so hard and so fast that it will wrap the springs up a little bit and give you some axle hop. It's barely noticeable; not at all like the severe wrap you'd experience on icy roads, for example. This *only* happens in 1st or reverse, and it's very minor.
I like the FE very much in the few miles I've driven it. Here's some other recommendations I'd make:
-- Install an oversized pilot bearing! I installed the monstrous TK75 from Quad 4x4. Once you see how wimpy the stock unit is, you can easily see why the fail so fast. Just compare far left to far right:
Finally, make ABSOLUTELY sure that the flywheel is resurfaced ONLY ON A FLYWHEEL MACHINE! This is not just turning on a lathe, fellas. We're talking about a $12K machine that ONLY does flywheels, making a super-smooth surface with wear marks that radiate outward from the middle of the (radially from the hub). Do NOT try to do it on a brake lathe or something else-- ONLY ON A FLYWHEEL MACHINE. When done this way, the flywheel will have a nearly mirror finish to it, and while you can *see* the grinding marks radiating outward, you CANNOT feel them with your fingers or nails.
I had a machine shop bore out the center of the flywheel to allow for the press fit of the new pilot bearing (far right TK75). Interference is .0015" I also had the shop leave a 1/8" register in the enlarged hole to that the bearing would "bottom out" on the register and seat instead of being held ONLY by the press fit. This is somewhat mentioned in the TK75 flyer, but it doesn't tell you HOW MUCH register to leave. I guessed at 1/8" and it ended up working very well.
Make sure that runout is LESS THAN .001" piloted off the center hole, or you could have big problems later from a hole that's not on-center.
I went to great lengths to "do it right", and I'm thus far convinced that most of the bad manners people report from the FE have to do with installation errors or improper flywheel prep.
Smarty went to #9 for good
Justin
04-13-2006, 04:36 PM
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Gotta Love those bearings. I wish I had done that the first time I had the clutch out. Did you have any damage tothe input shaft? Mine had some the first time and even more when I pulled it to replace the bearing. Fortunatly it won't cause any issues with the new bearing.
Randy
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04-13-2006, 07:56 PM
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Glad you can finally "handle
" the power...I went DD from a stocker about 85K miles ago, and I'm still loving it. Of course at 402hp anything much better than stock would work
Chris
" the power...I went DD from a stocker about 85K miles ago, and I'm still loving it. Of course at 402hp anything much better than stock would workChris
04-13-2006, 08:08 PM
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I'm jealous, wish I could mash the skinny pedal on the freeway and not worry about slipping the clutch. Thanks for the heads up on the pilot bearing as I haven't heard of that upgrade before. Eric
04-14-2006, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by newriverSpecon
Gotta Love those bearings. I wish I had done that the first time I had the clutch out. Did you have any damage tothe input shaft? Mine had some the first time and even more when I pulled it to replace the bearing. Fortunatly it won't cause any issues with the new bearing.
Randy
Randy
Add to that the following:
$150 to have the flywheel precisely modified (the shop I took it to had CNC
)$100 for the pilot bearing
$20 for the flywheel resurfacing
$400 for the tranny R&R at a local shop
Yes, it's more than I would like to have paid for the machine work and the whole package overall. But I'd much rather pay more now than a lot more later. I'm expecting to get a LOT of life out of this clutch, as I don't pull or race, and I'll probably never have over 500hp. I'm just easy on clutches (you should have seen the stocker that came out- still had half the lining and had left no hot spots on the flywheel-- it looked like it was supposed to)
Randy-- I had no damage to the input shaft that was detectable. Virtually no play. The old pilot bearing was still in pretty good shape overall, despite being so fragile.
Interestingly enough, a sound that I was hearing before this is now gone. Before, I'd always hear a momentary guttural mettallic groan if I gave it some fuel in 2nd or 3rd just off idle, like you might do when you coast up to a light and have to accelerate again from 15mph or so and have it ease up from low rpm (like 1000 or 1100rpm).
This groaning is gone entirely now. I can only surmise that it was the severe vibration of the near-lugging condition that was making noise from the play in the pilot bearing. So even though the pilot was undamaged, I *do* think that it was loose and failure would have occurred inevitably within the somewhat near future.
Justin
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04-14-2006, 10:29 AM
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Thanks! Now if only I could figure out where to go next...
I can hit 36psi or so now with a blocked wastegate at sea level.
When I first tested the M4s with a Catcher SW, I could hit 38psi in higher altitude! Something isn't right.
When I roll into the pedal, I get really good response-- sort of. I get really fast spoolup but the truck doesn't feel as strong as the spoolup suggests it should be.
Moreover, I can give it pedal to about 30psi and have strong clean acceleration. If I push it more, it goes to 35-36psi and just starts belching smoke.
Should my Smarty (#9) and M4s push a stock charger past 36psi?? I'd expect it to. I mean, I was getting 32psi with DD2s and an EZ! Part of me thinks that a drastic step up in injector size like I did should net more than 4psi of additional boost.
I don't think I have any boost leaks. But I *do* wonder if I don't have an exhaust manifold leak or somesuch that's causing some drive energy to bleed off. After all, pushing the stock turbo that far means terrible drive pressure, and the exhaust is going to pursue the path of least resistance.
jh
I can hit 36psi or so now with a blocked wastegate at sea level.
When I first tested the M4s with a Catcher SW, I could hit 38psi in higher altitude! Something isn't right.
When I roll into the pedal, I get really good response-- sort of. I get really fast spoolup but the truck doesn't feel as strong as the spoolup suggests it should be.
Moreover, I can give it pedal to about 30psi and have strong clean acceleration. If I push it more, it goes to 35-36psi and just starts belching smoke.
Should my Smarty (#9) and M4s push a stock charger past 36psi?? I'd expect it to. I mean, I was getting 32psi with DD2s and an EZ! Part of me thinks that a drastic step up in injector size like I did should net more than 4psi of additional boost.
I don't think I have any boost leaks. But I *do* wonder if I don't have an exhaust manifold leak or somesuch that's causing some drive energy to bleed off. After all, pushing the stock turbo that far means terrible drive pressure, and the exhaust is going to pursue the path of least resistance.
jh
04-14-2006, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by HOHN
There's one quirk I'm getting used to . The "feel" of the clutch pedal changes a lot. Instead of feeling like your stepping on a huge lever, it feels like the pedal travel has dropped a lot. It's hard to describe the change in feel; almost like you are clutching with your ankle instead of your knees.
A lot of this has to do with the pedal effort curve (i.e., how much pedal effort varies across the pedal travel). Initial effort is very low (lower than stock), and gets stiffer as you get to the floor.
The stock clutch is more linear, with more initial effort and less (comparatively) as you go down. In other words, the stocker is a flat plateau of 1000feet, and the FE is a ramp that start at sea level and end up at 1500feet (sorry for the lame analogy).
A lot of this has to do with the pedal effort curve (i.e., how much pedal effort varies across the pedal travel). Initial effort is very low (lower than stock), and gets stiffer as you get to the floor.
The stock clutch is more linear, with more initial effort and less (comparatively) as you go down. In other words, the stocker is a flat plateau of 1000feet, and the FE is a ramp that start at sea level and end up at 1500feet (sorry for the lame analogy).
YES! I have noticed this! At first you think something is differant...but cant put your.....well Foot on it (pardon the pun)! BUT after driving the truck....you left leg is a bit stiffer and feels worked.......that is it.......haha......
I get 32 PSI with JUST Mach II's and a Boost elbow....anything that would drop pressure that much.....i would assume you would hear/see it.....wether is be Exhasust or Boost........
04-14-2006, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by HOHN
Thanks! Now if only I could figure out where to go next...
I can hit 36psi or so now with a blocked wastegate at sea level.
When I first tested the M4s with a Catcher SW, I could hit 38psi in higher altitude! Something isn't right.
When I roll into the pedal, I get really good response-- sort of. I get really fast spoolup but the truck doesn't feel as strong as the spoolup suggests it should be.
Moreover, I can give it pedal to about 30psi and have strong clean acceleration. If I push it more, it goes to 35-36psi and just starts belching smoke.
Should my Smarty (#9) and M4s push a stock charger past 36psi?? I'd expect it to. I mean, I was getting 32psi with DD2s and an EZ! Part of me thinks that a drastic step up in injector size like I did should net more than 4psi of additional boost.
I don't think I have any boost leaks. But I *do* wonder if I don't have an exhaust manifold leak or somesuch that's causing some drive energy to bleed off. After all, pushing the stock turbo that far means terrible drive pressure, and the exhaust is going to pursue the path of least resistance.
jh
I can hit 36psi or so now with a blocked wastegate at sea level.
When I first tested the M4s with a Catcher SW, I could hit 38psi in higher altitude! Something isn't right.
When I roll into the pedal, I get really good response-- sort of. I get really fast spoolup but the truck doesn't feel as strong as the spoolup suggests it should be.
Moreover, I can give it pedal to about 30psi and have strong clean acceleration. If I push it more, it goes to 35-36psi and just starts belching smoke.
Should my Smarty (#9) and M4s push a stock charger past 36psi?? I'd expect it to. I mean, I was getting 32psi with DD2s and an EZ! Part of me thinks that a drastic step up in injector size like I did should net more than 4psi of additional boost.
I don't think I have any boost leaks. But I *do* wonder if I don't have an exhaust manifold leak or somesuch that's causing some drive energy to bleed off. After all, pushing the stock turbo that far means terrible drive pressure, and the exhaust is going to pursue the path of least resistance.
jh
04-14-2006, 11:01 AM
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It's just weird. If it was flaming out, wouldn't you expect lots of smoke?
All is normal until I hit 35psi, then it just won't make more boost and start smoking a lot.
This is near the very end of the pedal, so I'm practically WOT when it happens.
I think that this weenie little turbo is just gagging trying to pass that much air through the turbine side.
But I've pushed it to 38psi in thinner air, so why is it acting this way now? The 38psi was on winter fuel even!
By all LOGICAL reasoning, I should be able to push this charger to 40+ given the tight turbine side. Not that that is good or that I'd want to, but I suspect that fact that I CAN'T do this indicates something wrong
All is normal until I hit 35psi, then it just won't make more boost and start smoking a lot.
This is near the very end of the pedal, so I'm practically WOT when it happens.
I think that this weenie little turbo is just gagging trying to pass that much air through the turbine side.
But I've pushed it to 38psi in thinner air, so why is it acting this way now? The 38psi was on winter fuel even!
By all LOGICAL reasoning, I should be able to push this charger to 40+ given the tight turbine side. Not that that is good or that I'd want to, but I suspect that fact that I CAN'T do this indicates something wrong
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