toupee

Ok guys, I've seen quad recommend stacking his xzt with a juice/attitude setup and a programmer. I understand how stacking is supposed to work. My question is this - if you have a J/A (like me) then you have already piggybacked into the injector harnesses and you've used the other sensor plugs in the engine. I don't see how you can hook up a box like the xzt that uses some of the same connectors that the edge setup does without some loss of function. And I'm not sure I see how a programmer can be that usefull once you've achieved this setup because I would think that it would work like this - you would have the programmer reflash the ecm with it's tunes, those tunes would then just be altered by the juice/attitude and be useless. Thats timing and fueling, on the pressure end I would think that your pressure box would just override the programmers tuning. Someone clue me in here.

Speed Shift

OK, say you have two boxes here, BOX1 and BOX2.....

stock harness....

_________{conn}_________



BOX1 installed in stock harness...

_______{conn}- - - - [BOX1}- - - -{conn}___________



Stacked BOX1 and BOX2.....

_______{conn}- - - - [BOX1]- - - -{conn}-------(BOX2)-------{conn}_______


To put it simply just plug'em togather man! In some variations it depends which box goes in front of the other, but that is a whole different thread....

Hope this helps!

toupee

Yeah, I figured as much on the harnesses.... my question is more toward the other sensors like the map sensor, etc... i don't see how you can piggyback it...and i don't think splicing would work correctly.

omaharam

Let's say the Juice takes the stock injector duration, where stock is "x", and makes it x+2. Now instead of x injector duration you have x+2 injector duration. Now you decide to add an xzt. Let pretend the Juice is not on the truck, and say that the xzt changes the injector duration to x+1. Ok, so now you plug the xzt in, and then the Juice behind it. The xzt alters the duration to x+1 and that is now the information that the Juice gets. It is still programmed to take the information (which is now not stock information) and add 2. So you now get (x+1)+2.
That all made sense in my head. I hope it makes sense the way I explained it.

$oC@l CTD

Any box that comes with harnesses that are to replace your factory harnesses come with both their OWN harness (example: Edge Juice w/Attitude has it's on map sensor and injector harnesses) and they also come with the female end to the same harness that they are replacing (example: a place for the factory harnesses to plug into, or "piggyback", so that the ECM will not only recognize the fact that you put the box in, but to read THROUGH the box and alter the way your otherwise stock truck would perform)...Do I still have ya?

Now, any time that you have multiple boxes plugged in at the same time (stacked), it's just a matter of trial and error LITERALLY to see which one NEEDS to be plugged into the factory female harness ends, THEN piggy backed with the other box, THEN piggy backed with the factory harnesses...Do I STILL have ya!

Now, in my case, I have the Edge stacked with the Puck. For mine to work properly, I had to disconnect the Edge map sensor harness (leave the factory harness plugged into the female harness of the Edge) then plug the Edge into the female harness of the Puck, then plug the Puck into the female factory map sensor harness. In other applications, it might call for the exact opposite. The same would go for the injector harnesses...all just trial and error.

The only other connections that the Puck has, is the common rail harness...so that was a no brainer. Any other questions you might have, shoot and we will ALWAYS try to clarify for ya bud!

toupee

I think I'm getting things better now....I had a misconception that the edge monitored and made data changes on the fly.... sounds like it's just preprogrammed to add a certain amount. BTW, no tranny problems with that setup $oc@l?

ptgarcia

Well, there's more to it than that. omaharam's explanation was a simplified version of what happens. As certain conditions are met the box does it's thing. Maybe Quad can jump in and give a more in depth explanation.

toupee

Funny you should mention Quad. Jeremy at quadzilla sent me an e-mail explaining some of this stuff just a minute ago.

toupee

Ok everybody, I just got the flashpaq that is in my signature. Just looking through the manual it says to not leave any electronic performance enhancing devices connected while reflashing the computer. The programmer can't screw up a box can it?

Speed Shift

mmmmmmm thats kinda controversal, I leave my boxes on while I download everytime, and havent had a glitch. I may be playing with fire though.

omaharam

Did you just call me simple minded?

I RESEMBLE that remark.

RamWheelsBy4

So are you going to share the information so we know more??

$oC@l CTD

By NO means do I condone having a 200hp+ stack on a CTD with a stock auto tranny. I can slip the TC at will. I just bought the two to experiment a little BEFORE I start with the drive train mods and fuel mods, etc. I drive smart, also. No boosted launches, no cranking everything up and constantly racing between redlights, etc. The way I figure it, my stock tranny will last me the next few months, then I deploy, then I will come back and buy a billet tranny and go from there. I simply wanted a baseline. So to answer your question....NO, I DON'T have tranny PROBLEMS, but does my tranny HATE me....yes! .........................

toupee

Here's what Jeremy said:
Brynn
Baically no matter if you stack with another module or a tuner they will work together. If you run one of our modules with the Edge basically which ever one you have plugged in first is going to make changes like normal and the module that is plugged in second will also make changes. Basically the module that is second in line will see a signal just like normal but since the first module is already making changes the second module is is going to increase the changes even more. Say if the Edge module changes the timing up by 2 degrees and our module changes it up as well by 2 degrees then that would be 4 degrees of timing over stock. The same goes for a downloader as well, whatever it is changing in the ECM will just be furthered by stacking a module on top of it. Hope that clears it up some for you. If you have any other questions just let me know.

BTW - I tried out my flashpaq for the first time today... used the performance setting. Truck idles smoother with the flashpaq than with the j/a. The flashpaq seems to shift sooner and smoother than the edge setup does. I don't hot rod my truck by any means since I still have a all stock tranny. Under brisk accelaration the flashpaq doesn't feel like it's as fast as the j/a on 3 or 4. But then I have only made one round trip with it so far. I do think it's kind of odd though since superchips advertised #'s on performance are higher than the j/a level 5 settings and superchips dyno plot shows a fairly level torque curve.

qzilla

Ok, as bad as I really did not want a long drawn out post I guess it is inevitable.

First, realize that stacking can and will vary based on each individual product used and how much info is available on the particular products you are using. The hardest thing about stacking is finding out the technical information of the product you are using. With modules you can get an idea because of how the plug in. With a downloader it is a total crapshoot. You could have ver 1.1 that does only duration and ver 1.2 that does duration and pressure and you would only know with a lot of test equipment. To me that is one of the problems with downloaders is that you are putting 100% trust in what someone tells you. Now maybe when you use something like a Smarty you will get a lot of straight answers but, I would not expect the same good info from Superchips. Nothing wrong with SC but, I highly doubt you are going to get an engineer to spill the beans.

I am going to assume that we are going to stack and XZT and a Juice module for this example since that has already been mentioned.

Stacking these works very well because the Juice module does primarily duration. Duration works great but, it lowers the injection pressure of the entire system which is one of the great things about a HIGH pressure common rail system. In this case the XZT adds pressure back to the system which brings back throttle response as well as cools egts because proper atomization is reached.

Now, the question at hand is how does sticking 2 plugs in the MAP sensor work. Well, it sort of does and it sort of causes some problems which is the primary reason we created a stacking version. First, you need to know that as far as I can tell the Juice module does 2 things with the MAP signal. First it uses it to provide a "boost cap or clam" this is also known as boost fooling. I probably contributed a lot to the term "boost fooling" which is actually incorrect but, too late to change it. Boost fooling would be altering the signal while boost capping prevents the ECM from seeing an overboost condition. The second thing the Juice does is base fueling and/or timing changes based on the boost level. Because of this you will not likely see much change in duration or timing at 0 boost. Now, the XZT in standard format does these 2 things plus a couple of proprietary things. The stacking version is limited to just the same 2 things the Juice does but, we remapped the fueling changes to accomadate the Juice boost fooling. In otherwords we made it were you are going to get max fueling by the time you are in the 22psi range. Had we not left it alone you might not get the full potential because when we are stacked on the Juice it is going to limit the output signal which goes into the XZT.


Now, if you take the EZ then it is a little simpler because it simply uses the signal for mapping purposes. In this case a boost fooler can be stacked on the same sensor after the EZ and it works great because the signal is passed directly through the EZ and the boost fooler sends the ECM a limited signal.

When you stack a downloader you are doing drastically different things. To keep it simple it is really not "stacking". You are altering the factory tuning and then allowing the module to do its own tuning afterwards. The Juice will do what it always does even though the signal it is recieving has already been modified, it has no idea and does not care.

Now, the reason this works is that if you take a downloader only or a module only there are always limitations as to what you can do. On a downloader if you go to far with certain things the ECM throws a fit and gives a CEL. On the module side it is typically hardware limited. Either the hardware is not fast enough to do more tasks or the hardware cannot handle the power and current requirements to get the extra horsepower out of it. Remember these injectors are very high powered and suck a lot of current when controlling the solenoids. So when you alter duration in the ECM and then let the Juice do it everyone is happy and you get a longer stretch than you normally could.

The other way this works is sometimes the programmers are limited with knowledge about what programming does what. Now they have a good idea but, there are many maps and things that go untouched as there is not really and instruction manual for hacking and ECM!! In this case a lot of times they compliment each other well because they may be doing slightly different things even if they are very similar.

Hope that helps. There is a lot more to it but, I tried to keep it simple. If I left something out or confused you even more please let me know.

Quad