Cummins V8 diesel?
08-05-2003, 02:03 PM
#1
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Cummins V8 diesel?
I don't wanna get lynched for heresy here, but hear me out, and give this some thought...
Regardless of the ongoing confrontations over inline 6's and V8's - we would have to admit (grudgingly perhaps...) that GM and Ford diesels manage to do pretty well in various uses and applications - and the greatest advantage in the Cummins relates to the better materials and over-built construction as compared to the competition...
BUT, what if Cummins applied what has already been proven as to capabilities of the modern computerized V8's, and combined that technology with their own proven ability to build durability and long life into a diesel engine?
Whether we like it or not, EPA and similar agencies continue and WILL continue to force operation of diesels further on up the RPM scale, into areas better handled by V8 engines - and the previous advantages of slower reving, low power torque of the inline engines keeps on eroding as RPM is increased...
Mercedes had pretty decent V8 diesel a few years back - maybe they still do - so what would be YOUR reaction if Cummins DID come out with a quality V8 diesel for use in our trucks?
Think before you type...
;D ;D ;D
Regardless of the ongoing confrontations over inline 6's and V8's - we would have to admit (grudgingly perhaps...) that GM and Ford diesels manage to do pretty well in various uses and applications - and the greatest advantage in the Cummins relates to the better materials and over-built construction as compared to the competition...
BUT, what if Cummins applied what has already been proven as to capabilities of the modern computerized V8's, and combined that technology with their own proven ability to build durability and long life into a diesel engine?
Whether we like it or not, EPA and similar agencies continue and WILL continue to force operation of diesels further on up the RPM scale, into areas better handled by V8 engines - and the previous advantages of slower reving, low power torque of the inline engines keeps on eroding as RPM is increased...
Mercedes had pretty decent V8 diesel a few years back - maybe they still do - so what would be YOUR reaction if Cummins DID come out with a quality V8 diesel for use in our trucks?
Think before you type...
;D ;D ;D
08-05-2003, 02:18 PM
#2
Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
Personally Im pretty disapointed in todays modern vehicles. My 93 CTD is the newest vehicle Ive owned. Most have been trucks, Iron case trans and transfer cases etc. It seems technoligy is another way of saying you just bought a 40k bick lighter. When it stops working throw it in in the trash cause nobody can fix it right,including the people who made it. I blame this on computer controls and the recent emission regs. We just bought a 95 jeep Cherokee,4.0HO, one trip to the mountains and Im ready to sell it. Im still kicking my self in the hiney for selling the CJ5 for this pile. 18mpg on flat ground, this thing cant stay in one gear for lack of power and that stinkin lock up converter, its almost as annoying as our works 2k F150. My 63 GMC 305 V6 got 19 mpg. I just dont get it anymore. Ill keep the straight 6 CTD and my 85 Cheby 4x4. Call me what ever, but you can keep modern computer vehicles.
08-05-2003, 03:29 PM
#3
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Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
I'd keep my '93. A big part of why I bought a Dodge over a Ford was because I like the way inline 6 cylinder turbo diesels sound. Got a stick shift for the same reason, automatic trucks don't sound like a semi. Furthermore, the inline six is just a better way to construct a diesel engine than a V-8. More main bearings, more room for the rods, simpler construction, etc. There's a reason why every large truck you see on the road has an inline six, it's a design that works better than all others. I agree, though, that the Duramax and the old Powerstroke are adequate as pickup truck diesels. But I'd rather have the engine that's much better than adequate.
08-05-2003, 03:44 PM
#4
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Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
I share your apprehensions over the computerized aspect - and that was why I selected my '02, when I could have as easily bought an '03 - but obviously, the '02 has its fair share of computerized components as well...
My '91, in its day, had it all over Ford and GM as far as diesels were concerned, but GM and Ford learned their lessons, and Ford's Power Strokes in the later 90's pulled them pretty much even in overall ability - sure, we can add power enhancements - and so can THEY!
We've slowly seen the competition increase their power and torque as they have DEcreased displacement - we can no longer crow or take comfort over the "power advantage" we have with smaller displacement - not much difference between a 6.6, 6.0 and a 5.9...
Shucks, my '91 was governored at 2500 RPM, and saw most of it's operation down well below 2000 RPM even when towing - look where our engines are redlined today, and where most spend their RPM in towing situations under load...
Once you move diesel efficiency up higher in the RPM scale, all the earlier advantages of the old-style inline engines starts to disappear, and THAT, plus the computer aspect is NOT going to go away! IF the 18 wheelers were faced with the same emissions constraints as we are, and were forced to move their operating RPM well up the scale to cope, I wonder how long they would continue with the inline engines?
My early days as a hotrodder saw much the same rivalry between the Ford/GM big sixes and the V8's - but while the sixes were great for low end power, they were no match for the higher reving V8's and there are precious few inline engines involved in any of the popular forms of racing today...
To repeat, Cummin's strong point has been primarily in the quality they build into their engines - and in the past, on the superiority of a long stroke inline, low RPM engine - but most of those advantages are nearing the end of the line as both GM and Ford continue to make MORE horesepower with increasingly SMALLER engine displacements at higher mandated RPM - all thru technology - whether we like it or not...
Would *I* buy a *quality* Cummins V8 diesel?
In a HEARTBEAT - after it has gone thru its teething pains...
My '91, in its day, had it all over Ford and GM as far as diesels were concerned, but GM and Ford learned their lessons, and Ford's Power Strokes in the later 90's pulled them pretty much even in overall ability - sure, we can add power enhancements - and so can THEY!
We've slowly seen the competition increase their power and torque as they have DEcreased displacement - we can no longer crow or take comfort over the "power advantage" we have with smaller displacement - not much difference between a 6.6, 6.0 and a 5.9...
Shucks, my '91 was governored at 2500 RPM, and saw most of it's operation down well below 2000 RPM even when towing - look where our engines are redlined today, and where most spend their RPM in towing situations under load...
Once you move diesel efficiency up higher in the RPM scale, all the earlier advantages of the old-style inline engines starts to disappear, and THAT, plus the computer aspect is NOT going to go away! IF the 18 wheelers were faced with the same emissions constraints as we are, and were forced to move their operating RPM well up the scale to cope, I wonder how long they would continue with the inline engines?
My early days as a hotrodder saw much the same rivalry between the Ford/GM big sixes and the V8's - but while the sixes were great for low end power, they were no match for the higher reving V8's and there are precious few inline engines involved in any of the popular forms of racing today...
To repeat, Cummin's strong point has been primarily in the quality they build into their engines - and in the past, on the superiority of a long stroke inline, low RPM engine - but most of those advantages are nearing the end of the line as both GM and Ford continue to make MORE horesepower with increasingly SMALLER engine displacements at higher mandated RPM - all thru technology - whether we like it or not...
Would *I* buy a *quality* Cummins V8 diesel?
In a HEARTBEAT - after it has gone thru its teething pains...
08-05-2003, 08:41 PM
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Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
I think it was back in the 70s when Cummins had V-configuration engines in over the road or maybe medium duty trucks. IRRC, these engines were an oversquare design, where the bore was greater than the stroke. This was to make them more compact so the medium duty truck market could be utilized.
There is some info about it in the book The Engine That Could.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...ce&s=books
Gary makes a good point regarding the environmental aspects driving engine design. Here are a couple of reports detailing Cummins' work on a new family of V configuration engines.
http://www.osti.gov/fcvt/2001-01-2065.pdf
http://www.osti.gov/fcvt/2000-01-2196.pdf
These reports have been out for a while, so they might be old news to some.
[Edited by Moderator - Fixed link]
There is some info about it in the book The Engine That Could.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...ce&s=books
Gary makes a good point regarding the environmental aspects driving engine design. Here are a couple of reports detailing Cummins' work on a new family of V configuration engines.
http://www.osti.gov/fcvt/2001-01-2065.pdf
http://www.osti.gov/fcvt/2000-01-2196.pdf
These reports have been out for a while, so they might be old news to some.
[Edited by Moderator - Fixed link]
08-05-2003, 09:05 PM
#6
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Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
HMMMmm - the papers pointed to are VERY interesting - and apparently Cummins has been aggressively developing a V8 diesel for some time now...
The sad thing is, projected lifespan on their prototype at 200,000 miles makes it a light duty diesel in the same class as the Ford and GM diesels - and pretty much mirrors their power levels and various other aspects as well...
Not much incentive for a buyer to prefer Cummins version of a V8, other than brand loyalty... My '02 looks more like a long-time keeper all the time... ;D ;D
The sad thing is, projected lifespan on their prototype at 200,000 miles makes it a light duty diesel in the same class as the Ford and GM diesels - and pretty much mirrors their power levels and various other aspects as well...
Not much incentive for a buyer to prefer Cummins version of a V8, other than brand loyalty... My '02 looks more like a long-time keeper all the time...
;D ;D
08-05-2003, 09:21 PM
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Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
Good point, Gary.
The shorter design life of the engines reflect what has been happening to our Ram trucks. The designs have been market driven. Look at what most of the people use their Rams for. In the "old" days, pickups were work trucks. Now, a lot of people use them for light duty errands.
I'm guilty of this. My 98.5 is my "road car". I don't even have a trailer hitch setup for the towing receiver. I wanted something I could put lots of miles on and not have to work on it too much. There are about 84k miles on it now, with an average MPG of 21.5.
Now that everything has been designed by computer programs, we are only going to get what we absolutely need to do the task, and nothing more. A good example of this is the Ram stock fuel system. When you bump up the power, the VP-44 starves for fuel, unless you also modify the fuel system.
So, to answer your original question, Yup, I would buy a V-Configured Cummins engine. But by the time I need one, that may be the only option we will have for a power plant in our rigs.
The shorter design life of the engines reflect what has been happening to our Ram trucks. The designs have been market driven. Look at what most of the people use their Rams for. In the "old" days, pickups were work trucks. Now, a lot of people use them for light duty errands.
I'm guilty of this. My 98.5 is my "road car". I don't even have a trailer hitch setup for the towing receiver. I wanted something I could put lots of miles on and not have to work on it too much. There are about 84k miles on it now, with an average MPG of 21.5.
Now that everything has been designed by computer programs, we are only going to get what we absolutely need to do the task, and nothing more. A good example of this is the Ram stock fuel system. When you bump up the power, the VP-44 starves for fuel, unless you also modify the fuel system.
So, to answer your original question, Yup, I would buy a V-Configured Cummins engine. But by the time I need one, that may be the only option we will have for a power plant in our rigs.
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08-05-2003, 09:30 PM
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Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
Cummins gave V engines a try. The 903, 555, 265 (there may have been some more) were flops. They would still be making them if they weren't.
If Cummins is going to try it again, let's hope they learned something from their mistakes.
If Cummins is going to try it again, let's hope they learned something from their mistakes.
08-05-2003, 09:38 PM
#9
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Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
[quote author=cp link=board=8;threadid=18007;start=#msg168728 date=1060137027]
Cummins gave V engines a try. The 903, 555, 265 (there may have been some more) were flops. They would still be making them if they weren't.
If Cummins is going to try it again, let's hope they learned something from their mistakes.
[/quote]
This isn't the '70's - and we're not in Kansas any more Toto!
What didn't work due to design and technology 30 years ago is OLD news - this is a new century, with new technology, guidlines and mandated environmental goals... And as the pointed to Cummins papers eloquently demonstrate, Cummins IS working on a V8 diesel - whether WE think it's doable - or a good idea - or not!
AND you can bet yer sweet bippy they WOULDN'T be spending the $$$ on significant research and development if they didn't have a firm grip on a potential or existing market to USE it in!
Cummins gave V engines a try. The 903, 555, 265 (there may have been some more) were flops. They would still be making them if they weren't.
If Cummins is going to try it again, let's hope they learned something from their mistakes.
[/quote]
This isn't the '70's - and we're not in Kansas any more Toto!
What didn't work due to design and technology 30 years ago is OLD news - this is a new century, with new technology, guidlines and mandated environmental goals... And as the pointed to Cummins papers eloquently demonstrate, Cummins IS working on a V8 diesel - whether WE think it's doable - or a good idea - or not!
AND you can bet yer sweet bippy they WOULDN'T be spending the $$$ on significant research and development if they didn't have a firm grip on a potential or existing market to USE it in!
08-05-2003, 11:32 PM
#10
Registered User
Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
Gary somewhere I have about 20 pages of info downloaded from a Cummins site on the devolopment of the new v8 Cummins. I will try to look it up when I get back from this next turnaround, leaving right now.
08-06-2003, 01:03 AM
#11
Registered User
Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
Just thinking out loud...
I think they would be designing light weight diesel engines for use in 1/2 ton and lighter trucks...
While I can't see them necessarily developing a "golf bag" of diesel engines, it is also unrealistic to think the flyweight diesel that is powering the 1/2 ton down the road, is necessarily going to be able to power your hotshot rig with the gcvw of 30,000 lbs.
As far as being loyal to Cummins...
If ANY manufacturer can make a diesel engine and truck combo that runs as reliably as the cummins does, and gets better fuel economy, and is able to do what I ask of it... I would be all over it. My real loyalty is with my wallet.
BTW... My brother went on a road trip this last weekend in his VW Jetta. He travelled 751 miles on 15.24us gal. He got 49.33 mpg (or 59.24mpg imperial gallons)
I think they would be designing light weight diesel engines for use in 1/2 ton and lighter trucks...
While I can't see them necessarily developing a "golf bag" of diesel engines, it is also unrealistic to think the flyweight diesel that is powering the 1/2 ton down the road, is necessarily going to be able to power your hotshot rig with the gcvw of 30,000 lbs.
As far as being loyal to Cummins...
If ANY manufacturer can make a diesel engine and truck combo that runs as reliably as the cummins does, and gets better fuel economy, and is able to do what I ask of it... I would be all over it. My real loyalty is with my wallet.
BTW... My brother went on a road trip this last weekend in his VW Jetta. He travelled 751 miles on 15.24us gal. He got 49.33 mpg (or 59.24mpg imperial gallons)
08-06-2003, 12:29 PM
#12
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Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
While I can't see them necessarily developing a "golf bag" of diesel engines, it is also unrealistic to think the flyweight diesel that is powering the 1/2 ton down the road, is necessarily going to be able to power your hotshot rig with the gcvw of 30,000 lbs.
08-06-2003, 06:53 PM
#13
Registered User
Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
That, essentially, is exactly what Ford and GM are ALREADY using in their HD trucks - and seemingly, the "new" V8 Cummins is apparently developing falls right into the same category!
08-06-2003, 08:42 PM
#14
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Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
The comparison I was intending with Ford and GM V8's is related to the material in the Cummins development paper that stated their engine is in the same general displacement and power rating as the others - but only has a 200,000 mile life expectancy - which puts the Cummins V8 right where the Ford and GM light duty stuff currently is...
Time will tell...
Time will tell...
08-06-2003, 10:06 PM
#15
Registered User
Re:Cummins V8 diesel?
Is it necessary to build an engine that will last 450,000 mi on average, when the average life expectancy for the vehicle would be less than 200,000 mi? The target market for these vehicles (5751-8500 gvw) generally would be discarded long before they would hit the 200,000 mile mark (at least around these parts anyway)
