Cryogenically frozen brake parts
03-16-2004, 10:08 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Cryogenically frozen brake parts
Just wondering if anyone has tried this..
The Fire Dept I work for dose this to the rotors and pads on some of the pumps. They say it extends the life of both.
A friend of mine has followed suit and had his rotors and pads done on his Dakota.
I did a search for this but could not find anything on the forums..
The cost to have them dipped in nitro is $40Cdn for each rotor and $16 for each set of pads.
This would effectivly double the cost of a brake job for my 99 ram, but if they last twice as long, it would be worth it not to have to change them as often..
The last time I changed them it took alot of heatin and beatin to get them off the truck. PITA PITA PITA... And Lots of Anti Sieze on the replacements....
The Fire Dept I work for dose this to the rotors and pads on some of the pumps. They say it extends the life of both.
A friend of mine has followed suit and had his rotors and pads done on his Dakota.
I did a search for this but could not find anything on the forums..
The cost to have them dipped in nitro is $40Cdn for each rotor and $16 for each set of pads.
This would effectivly double the cost of a brake job for my 99 ram, but if they last twice as long, it would be worth it not to have to change them as often..
The last time I changed them it took alot of heatin and beatin to get them off the truck. PITA PITA PITA... And Lots of Anti Sieze on the replacements....
03-16-2004, 10:31 PM
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
I heard of cyrogenic hardening but I don't know whether to believe it or not. I've never heard of doing this to brake pads as the pads are organic not really a metal. I believe the arguement is that by getting the material that cold the grain size shrinks making the material harder, so it *might* work on the rotors but I can't see how it possibly could on the pads.
The amount of anti-seize is insignificant if it is low quality anti-seize, there are two different base antiseize greases. The lower quality one would come right off with the brake system's heat, the other (aluminum based?!) would stick around and do its job.
The amount of anti-seize is insignificant if it is low quality anti-seize, there are two different base antiseize greases. The lower quality one would come right off with the brake system's heat, the other (aluminum based?!) would stick around and do its job.
03-16-2004, 11:02 PM
#3
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: coupeville wa.
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its a racers trick and probly not much good for the street.....you gotta remember when you talk real race ,it's a whole diff. world.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
the pads that are used dont hardly work at street temps.!!!!
We are just getting started here.........................
(weare talking freezing the rotors)
the pads that are used dont hardly work at street temps.!!!!
We are just getting started here.........................
(weare talking freezing the rotors)
03-17-2004, 01:16 AM
#4
Registered User
Just ship em up and let Scotty set them on the front porch for a night or two. 
Ok curious, how cold is liquid nitrogen? Reason I ask is having experience with LNG or liquid methane, I have seen results of steel when it is around the stuff. Cracks in half inch plate etc. Most everything around the stuff is stainless, real high in nickel. This was near 400 degrees below or I think 2200 pounds pressure. Wonder what the temp is on nitrogen.
Ok curious, how cold is liquid nitrogen? Reason I ask is having experience with LNG or liquid methane, I have seen results of steel when it is around the stuff. Cracks in half inch plate etc. Most everything around the stuff is stainless, real high in nickel. This was near 400 degrees below or I think 2200 pounds pressure. Wonder what the temp is on nitrogen.
03-17-2004, 05:13 AM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Wichta,Ks
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fireram;
This process was invented by nasa back in the 1960's to make parts more durable in space.
There's a company here in Wichita,Ks that does cyrogenic's. The process uses liquid nitrogen to take the material down to I beleive -421* F. This process is done at a rate of 1*/min and when the min. temp is reached the process is reversed 1*/min. back to ambeiant air temp.(this normalizes or anneales the mat.). Anyway after that process is complete then the mat. is reheat treated depending on the application. The object of this process is that no matter what material is the molecular structure of the mat. is (for a lack of better wording) more perfectly aligned.
Boeing has had drill bits, End mills, and other cutting tools treated and then preformed tests on these items the results were that most items lasted anywhere from 2-5 times longer.
The company that does this did a new set of lawm mower blades for me and I got about 3x's the life out of a set of blades
They told me they do rolls of weedeater string for lawn care out fits on a regular basis, w/ very happy customers. Even eggshells are more durable
.
Anyway sorry for rambling on. I just wanted to pass this imfo.on.
ramguy
This process was invented by nasa back in the 1960's to make parts more durable in space.
There's a company here in Wichita,Ks that does cyrogenic's. The process uses liquid nitrogen to take the material down to I beleive -421* F. This process is done at a rate of 1*/min and when the min. temp is reached the process is reversed 1*/min. back to ambeiant air temp.(this normalizes or anneales the mat.). Anyway after that process is complete then the mat. is reheat treated depending on the application. The object of this process is that no matter what material is the molecular structure of the mat. is (for a lack of better wording) more perfectly aligned.
Boeing has had drill bits, End mills, and other cutting tools treated and then preformed tests on these items the results were that most items lasted anywhere from 2-5 times longer.
The company that does this did a new set of lawm mower blades for me and I got about 3x's the life out of a set of blades
They told me they do rolls of weedeater string for lawn care out fits on a regular basis, w/ very happy customers. Even eggshells are more durable
.Anyway sorry for rambling on. I just wanted to pass this imfo.on.
ramguy
03-17-2004, 06:49 AM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canton, Ohio
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ramguy, you were pretty close but no cigar.
The heat treatment that you would apply to harden an alloy steel consists of a hardening operation (quench), and a temper (a draw) to soften the part and make it tougher. When you quench a part, depending on how much alloy content there is, you don't always fully harden it, so then when you temper the part it doesn't respond in the way you want to get the best properties. The quenching into liquid nitrogen is done after the hardening quench, and fully hardens the part so that the temper comes out as planned. Depending on the alloy, there are two cryogenic heat treatment temperatures that have been used, -420F and -100F. Most commercial stuff is done at -100F. BTW, the boiling point of liquid nitrogen is -319F.
John
The heat treatment that you would apply to harden an alloy steel consists of a hardening operation (quench), and a temper (a draw) to soften the part and make it tougher. When you quench a part, depending on how much alloy content there is, you don't always fully harden it, so then when you temper the part it doesn't respond in the way you want to get the best properties. The quenching into liquid nitrogen is done after the hardening quench, and fully hardens the part so that the temper comes out as planned. Depending on the alloy, there are two cryogenic heat treatment temperatures that have been used, -420F and -100F. Most commercial stuff is done at -100F. BTW, the boiling point of liquid nitrogen is -319F.
John
Trending Topics
03-17-2004, 07:15 AM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Scotts Valley, Ca
Posts: 425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I read about it about 5 yrs ago from a guy in central wisconsin doing this his main customers at that time were Harley owners who would send their internal engine parts to him ( pistons, crank, ect.) but I thought it was rather expensive at the time.
03-17-2004, 12:40 PM
#9
Registered User
Originally posted by John H
Ramguy, you were pretty close but no cigar.
The heat treatment that you would apply to harden an alloy steel consists of a hardening operation (quench), and a temper (a draw) to soften the part and make it tougher. When you quench a part, depending on how much alloy content there is, you don't always fully harden it, so then when you temper the part it doesn't respond in the way you want to get the best properties. The quenching into liquid nitrogen is done after the hardening quench, and fully hardens the part so that the temper comes out as planned. Depending on the alloy, there are two cryogenic heat treatment temperatures that have been used, -420F and -100F. Most commercial stuff is done at -100F. BTW, the boiling point of liquid nitrogen is -319F.
John
Ramguy, you were pretty close but no cigar.
The heat treatment that you would apply to harden an alloy steel consists of a hardening operation (quench), and a temper (a draw) to soften the part and make it tougher. When you quench a part, depending on how much alloy content there is, you don't always fully harden it, so then when you temper the part it doesn't respond in the way you want to get the best properties. The quenching into liquid nitrogen is done after the hardening quench, and fully hardens the part so that the temper comes out as planned. Depending on the alloy, there are two cryogenic heat treatment temperatures that have been used, -420F and -100F. Most commercial stuff is done at -100F. BTW, the boiling point of liquid nitrogen is -319F.
John
03-17-2004, 01:18 PM
#10
Registered User
Thread Starter
Thanks gents,
I would guess than that if it worked on drill bits,( steal on steal) it should work on rotors, (organic stuff on steal).
Still sounds as though it could be a scam, would like to here from someone that has had experience with this on a long term before I fork over the cash...
I would guess than that if it worked on drill bits,( steal on steal) it should work on rotors, (organic stuff on steal).
Still sounds as though it could be a scam, would like to here from someone that has had experience with this on a long term before I fork over the cash...
03-17-2004, 05:24 PM
#11
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: MN
Posts: 1,526
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know there is an off-road shop that does it to axles and u-joints and other drivetrain parts. 4 Wheel and Off Road did a feature on it in one of their magazines. I think they might have it on their website, www.4wheeloffroad.com
Anyway, I discussed it with my chemistry teacher, good ol Mr. Keifenheim. He said that what happens, much like, ramguy said, It draws all of the atoms into a much tighter bond, to arrange them in the most perfect and tightest way possible. Standard metals have got weak points in them where there is imperfections in the structure on an atomic level. Since Cryo-ing the steel draws them into a perfect pattern, all the way through the part, it eliminates all weak points. An example would be the triangular bracing of a long bridge. If you don't line up the braces on a small section of bridge (atoms not compacting properly), the bridge will collapse around it when overloaded. But when you have the perfect triangulating all the way through, it holds fine.
The article I read in 4WOR said they used something different than liquid nitrogen that got MUCH colder. I wish I could find it. I think if it were me, I'd spend it on u-joints instead of rotors, though.
Anyway, I discussed it with my chemistry teacher, good ol Mr. Keifenheim. He said that what happens, much like, ramguy said, It draws all of the atoms into a much tighter bond, to arrange them in the most perfect and tightest way possible. Standard metals have got weak points in them where there is imperfections in the structure on an atomic level. Since Cryo-ing the steel draws them into a perfect pattern, all the way through the part, it eliminates all weak points. An example would be the triangular bracing of a long bridge. If you don't line up the braces on a small section of bridge (atoms not compacting properly), the bridge will collapse around it when overloaded. But when you have the perfect triangulating all the way through, it holds fine.
The article I read in 4WOR said they used something different than liquid nitrogen that got MUCH colder. I wish I could find it. I think if it were me, I'd spend it on u-joints instead of rotors, though.
03-17-2004, 06:05 PM
#13
Registered User
Sounds interesting. Are there any hard figures on braking power vs durability? Increased rotor warping or cracking? How about the cost of such treatment?
AlpineRAM
AlpineRAM
03-17-2004, 06:12 PM
#14
Registered User
Fireram- you are in Ont. I think Mississauga FD does this. Call them up and ask for the maintenance dept. If it isn't them, they'll probably know-it was a pretty big department that I remember reading about in Firechief Magazine.
Mike
Mike
03-17-2004, 09:04 PM
#15
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canton, Ohio
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Crimedog
IThe article I read in 4WOR said they used something different than liquid nitrogen that got MUCH colder. I wish I could find it. I think if it were me, I'd spend it on u-joints instead of rotors, though.
IThe article I read in 4WOR said they used something different than liquid nitrogen that got MUCH colder. I wish I could find it. I think if it were me, I'd spend it on u-joints instead of rotors, though.
John