Complete 5sp Conv Notes!!
10-24-2005, 11:04 PM
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Complete 5sp Conv Notes!!
Okay so I just finished the conversion, and I will give you the brass tacks on everything I encountered and what i did along the way. These notes should pretty well cover everything from 94-97, beyond that there may be subtle differences I do not know about. So here goes...
1. you DO NOT need a different flywheel housing, the auto and manual housings are the same.
2. you DO NOT need to change the entire brake pedal assembly out. The auto and manuals share the same support bracket, just get the pedal set and hang it in....shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to convert it.
3. you DO NOT need to retain the main and auxilary trans coolers (I know...duh). Take them out now to make room for some compound turbos!!
4. I ordered my trans as a 98+ with a '95 extension housing. Why?
A. Because I wanted the transfer case shifter mounting bosses on the housing like my auto was. Somewhere after 98, the bracketry changed and was not secured to the extension housing. In retrospect, I found the mounting bosses to be 1" narrower anyway on the manual, as well as the shifter being closer to the tcase, requiring a removal of about 3" of shift rod, and opening up of the holes in the bracket to accomodate the narrower pattern on the housing....so if I had it to do over again, I would probably update the entire Tcase shifter and rod assembly to the 98+ style. Compounded with that, I opted for the 98+ center floor console instead of the bare boot that was offered in '94-'97. While the early shifter worked okay in the later console, a little bending was necessary to make it look and function within the boots.
B. I wanted to install the BD short shift kit, and it is only offered for the late style 98+ shift tower. Now that I have it, I love it. The gates are super narrow and the throw is less than 6". It really makes rowing the 5sp fun and crisp. I highly recommend making sure you get a trans with the 98+ top cover, or swap it on, in order tho utilize this neat little gadget. The kit installs in less than 10 minutes....at least for me, as I had the trans on the bench.
5. The manual output shaft is a larger 29 spline, and your auto uses a smaller 23 spline. You'll have to order a new input gear for the Tcase. Again, this is not a hard install, but the Tcase must be mostly disassembled to get access. There is no rocket science inside, I did the conversion in about an hour. Note that there are two different input gear bearings out there on the 241HD's. A narrow and a wide. They will interchange fine in the case, but the one you need is dictated by what you already have versus what the new gear needs, the only way you're gonna know is to run the numbers and ask. Or wait till yours is apart and take it in stride. it will be obvious, as the snap ring groove will either be close to the gear teeth, or farther up the gear snout. Either way, a new bearing is about $20..no big deal.
6. Trans mount.....auto crossmember is fine, as is the auto soft mount. The manual needs about an inch more height over the soft mount, so a simple hoop type bracket can be made or bought from an adapter oulet, to bolt on to the soft mount, then to the bottom of the trans, raising it about an inch. The front to back alignment is right on, so no need to compensate for length.
7. driveshafts will have to be made over. The rear is 6" too short, and the front is 6" too long. I share a building with a machinist, so we just made a new rear, and shortened the front. I will say, at 6" shorter, the angle is pretty steep on the front shaft. I have 2" levelers on the front, and while in the air, the cardon joints rubbed on their yokes. Once on the ground, it was just fine, but keep it in mind if you're lifted very high. A custom high angle shaft will be needed if so. Being a standard cab, I also don't have a rear carrier bearing BTW.
8. Clutch master/slave. Buy the MOPAR kit. It comes complete with the resevoir, master, slave, rods and hydraulic lines, and is prefilled and bled. But beware, SOMEWHERE along the way the mounting style was changed. Being that I ordered my trans as a 98+, the master i received had an extra 2" of rod, which flat didn't work. I ended up shortening it. Normally early 2nd gens masters merely snapped into place via a bayonet twist mount in the brake pedal support bracket throught the firewall. My master came with an extra cup with studs on it for I guess a later style of mounting. I removed it and mounted the master up using the bayonet base, which left the piston rod too long. Moral of the story, order your hydraulics per year of your truck and you'll be fine.
9. The flywheel uses longer bolts than the auto flexplate, so be sure and get the right bolts.
10. Your starter will work fine, the autos and manuals use the same one.
11. Clutches....hmm, well there's plenty to choose from. I went with the SBC ConFE 13" conversion. While the clutch can be chattery when starting in second, I found a few more RPM while slipping the clutch out, smooths it right out. In reverse and first, no chatter....and that's with 35's and 3.54's. Don't be afraid of this clutch, it is not as finicky as some report. If you have the power, don't short change yourself with the OFE just for a smooth engagement. The FE is not bad at all, but it's all relative to the driver, so my experience and expectations may be different than yours. Just suffice it to say, I am VERY pleased with the FE, and especially the size of the hub and springs from the ETH style disk as well as the extra diameter.
12. okay...electrical. I had and RH, so PCM mods were slight and simple. If you have an RE, I'm afraid I don't know what needs to be done in order to maintain cruise control. The nuetral and back-ups should be the same though and the mods for both of those are easy.....
A. Nuetral safety sw - your new clutch master has the switch built onto it, and the truck, even though an auto, also has a provision for it. There is a 2 pin plug mounted to the right side of the fuse block under the dash. It is green in color and the auto trucks simply have a jumper placed in them. Remove the jumper and plug in the master's nuetral harness and your done. Down below, you will have to wire a relay into the existing auto wires that simulate the auto's nuetral sw. I won't go into detail now, as I have already posted a diagram here... http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?i...wwiring3gv.jpg ...that shows how to wire it in. In short, the function of the wires must change to both get the truck to crank, but then allow the cruise to work, as a full time nuetral signal will inhibit the cruise control. If there are any questions on this subject, I will answer email, but post here instead so others can see, and I will answer in like.
B. Back-up - the new trans will (or should) have the back-up switch already installed on the top cover. It is a simple open/close two pole switch. Just hook the positive center wire from your auto sw harness to one terminal, and the back-ups to the other and you're done. If you can scrounge up a plug from a manual truck, it's even easier, otherwise you have to deal with a molded weatherpack type plug with small terminals.
Okay I know I haven't mentioned everything, and I'm sure there are many more questions, so fire away and I'll do my best within the knowledge I gained on my '95 conversion.
Good luck and thanks for the look.
Chris
1. you DO NOT need a different flywheel housing, the auto and manual housings are the same.
2. you DO NOT need to change the entire brake pedal assembly out. The auto and manuals share the same support bracket, just get the pedal set and hang it in....shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to convert it.
3. you DO NOT need to retain the main and auxilary trans coolers (I know...duh). Take them out now to make room for some compound turbos!!
4. I ordered my trans as a 98+ with a '95 extension housing. Why?
A. Because I wanted the transfer case shifter mounting bosses on the housing like my auto was. Somewhere after 98, the bracketry changed and was not secured to the extension housing. In retrospect, I found the mounting bosses to be 1" narrower anyway on the manual, as well as the shifter being closer to the tcase, requiring a removal of about 3" of shift rod, and opening up of the holes in the bracket to accomodate the narrower pattern on the housing....so if I had it to do over again, I would probably update the entire Tcase shifter and rod assembly to the 98+ style. Compounded with that, I opted for the 98+ center floor console instead of the bare boot that was offered in '94-'97. While the early shifter worked okay in the later console, a little bending was necessary to make it look and function within the boots.
B. I wanted to install the BD short shift kit, and it is only offered for the late style 98+ shift tower. Now that I have it, I love it. The gates are super narrow and the throw is less than 6". It really makes rowing the 5sp fun and crisp. I highly recommend making sure you get a trans with the 98+ top cover, or swap it on, in order tho utilize this neat little gadget. The kit installs in less than 10 minutes....at least for me, as I had the trans on the bench.
5. The manual output shaft is a larger 29 spline, and your auto uses a smaller 23 spline. You'll have to order a new input gear for the Tcase. Again, this is not a hard install, but the Tcase must be mostly disassembled to get access. There is no rocket science inside, I did the conversion in about an hour. Note that there are two different input gear bearings out there on the 241HD's. A narrow and a wide. They will interchange fine in the case, but the one you need is dictated by what you already have versus what the new gear needs, the only way you're gonna know is to run the numbers and ask. Or wait till yours is apart and take it in stride. it will be obvious, as the snap ring groove will either be close to the gear teeth, or farther up the gear snout. Either way, a new bearing is about $20..no big deal.
6. Trans mount.....auto crossmember is fine, as is the auto soft mount. The manual needs about an inch more height over the soft mount, so a simple hoop type bracket can be made or bought from an adapter oulet, to bolt on to the soft mount, then to the bottom of the trans, raising it about an inch. The front to back alignment is right on, so no need to compensate for length.
7. driveshafts will have to be made over. The rear is 6" too short, and the front is 6" too long. I share a building with a machinist, so we just made a new rear, and shortened the front. I will say, at 6" shorter, the angle is pretty steep on the front shaft. I have 2" levelers on the front, and while in the air, the cardon joints rubbed on their yokes. Once on the ground, it was just fine, but keep it in mind if you're lifted very high. A custom high angle shaft will be needed if so. Being a standard cab, I also don't have a rear carrier bearing BTW.
8. Clutch master/slave. Buy the MOPAR kit. It comes complete with the resevoir, master, slave, rods and hydraulic lines, and is prefilled and bled. But beware, SOMEWHERE along the way the mounting style was changed. Being that I ordered my trans as a 98+, the master i received had an extra 2" of rod, which flat didn't work. I ended up shortening it. Normally early 2nd gens masters merely snapped into place via a bayonet twist mount in the brake pedal support bracket throught the firewall. My master came with an extra cup with studs on it for I guess a later style of mounting. I removed it and mounted the master up using the bayonet base, which left the piston rod too long. Moral of the story, order your hydraulics per year of your truck and you'll be fine.
9. The flywheel uses longer bolts than the auto flexplate, so be sure and get the right bolts.
10. Your starter will work fine, the autos and manuals use the same one.
11. Clutches....hmm, well there's plenty to choose from. I went with the SBC ConFE 13" conversion. While the clutch can be chattery when starting in second, I found a few more RPM while slipping the clutch out, smooths it right out. In reverse and first, no chatter....and that's with 35's and 3.54's. Don't be afraid of this clutch, it is not as finicky as some report. If you have the power, don't short change yourself with the OFE just for a smooth engagement. The FE is not bad at all, but it's all relative to the driver, so my experience and expectations may be different than yours. Just suffice it to say, I am VERY pleased with the FE, and especially the size of the hub and springs from the ETH style disk as well as the extra diameter.
12. okay...electrical. I had and RH, so PCM mods were slight and simple. If you have an RE, I'm afraid I don't know what needs to be done in order to maintain cruise control. The nuetral and back-ups should be the same though and the mods for both of those are easy.....
A. Nuetral safety sw - your new clutch master has the switch built onto it, and the truck, even though an auto, also has a provision for it. There is a 2 pin plug mounted to the right side of the fuse block under the dash. It is green in color and the auto trucks simply have a jumper placed in them. Remove the jumper and plug in the master's nuetral harness and your done. Down below, you will have to wire a relay into the existing auto wires that simulate the auto's nuetral sw. I won't go into detail now, as I have already posted a diagram here... http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?i...wwiring3gv.jpg ...that shows how to wire it in. In short, the function of the wires must change to both get the truck to crank, but then allow the cruise to work, as a full time nuetral signal will inhibit the cruise control. If there are any questions on this subject, I will answer email, but post here instead so others can see, and I will answer in like.
B. Back-up - the new trans will (or should) have the back-up switch already installed on the top cover. It is a simple open/close two pole switch. Just hook the positive center wire from your auto sw harness to one terminal, and the back-ups to the other and you're done. If you can scrounge up a plug from a manual truck, it's even easier, otherwise you have to deal with a molded weatherpack type plug with small terminals.
Okay I know I haven't mentioned everything, and I'm sure there are many more questions, so fire away and I'll do my best within the knowledge I gained on my '95 conversion.
Good luck and thanks for the look.
Chris
10-25-2005, 10:35 AM
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Excellent Post...too bad I started with a good tranny, then went to a better one
Nothing but smiles from my NV5600 yet. Even being hard to go in gear, I still looooove it!!
On question for you though..on the new style floor console. How much work is it to make one fit?? I've got a line on one, but just wondering how much wok it's gonna be putting it in? I also need to put in my t-case shifter and linkage when I get a console!
Any help is appreciated!
Chris
Nothing but smiles from my NV5600 yet. Even being hard to go in gear, I still looooove it!!
On question for you though..on the new style floor console. How much work is it to make one fit?? I've got a line on one, but just wondering how much wok it's gonna be putting it in? I also need to put in my t-case shifter and linkage when I get a console!
Any help is appreciated!
Chris
10-25-2005, 02:43 PM
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No trouble at all.....just to be clear, the 98-02 console is what I bought. It fits the floor just perfect. I bought the lower (floor) shifter boot, the upper shifter boot, the upper T-case boot, the 4x4 tcase upper bezel, and the cup holder rubber inserts. The lower right corner of the lower boot actually hung out into the tcase hole, but once the tcase lower boot was in place, everything was covered. I had to wittle off the right upper corner of my 95 lower tcase boot for it to conform to the lower shifter boot contour. Hope that wasn't too confusing. There is also the SRS module under there, but it doesn't get in the way, with exception to it blocking the front console bracket from bolting down. Even without that bracet being attached to the floor, the console is rock solid and not going anywhere.
I highly advise the later console, as it has two more cup holders, and has a very nice clean appearance to it. The shade of gray is just a little off, but not really noticeable enough to worry about. As I said earlier, I wish I would have gone with the later tcase shifter and linkage though, as it probably would have been a smoother install.
For those interested, here's the part #'s for the console:
http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/7...numbers0rh.jpg
Good Luck
Chris
I highly advise the later console, as it has two more cup holders, and has a very nice clean appearance to it. The shade of gray is just a little off, but not really noticeable enough to worry about. As I said earlier, I wish I would have gone with the later tcase shifter and linkage though, as it probably would have been a smoother install.
For those interested, here's the part #'s for the console:
http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/7...numbers0rh.jpg
Good Luck
Chris
10-25-2005, 02:50 PM
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no prob, now GIT R' DUN.....oh, and thanks for the help this weekend too!! The trans is not nearly as notchy as it was, after 150 miles, it is definitely smoothing out. And the clutch is easily manageable. Shouldn't be a problem at all for the spouse. Jean put 70 of those 150 miles on it and didn't have a problem with it.
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10-25-2005, 09:56 PM
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Copied from a PM...decided to post it
I read your description on your tranny swap and you said you had to open up the transfer case.
My transfer case is leaking between the two halfs of the case. How hard is it to just split the cases to reseal or replace the gasket? Is there a gasket or just RTV?
It looks like I could just do it without even taking the transfer case out of the truck by removing the rear driveshaft and splitting the case. What do you think?
I don't know anyone who has actually had one of these things apart so I figured I'd ask you.
Thanks for any info you could give me.
No problem. Yes it is only RTV, and yes you can do it in the truck. Other than the two main halves, you'll see, on the driveshaft end, a tailshaft housing with a seal that seals the driveshaft yoke. Remove the 4 bolts that hold it in place and take it off. Next there is another housing under that also held on by 4 bolts. Before you take them out, remove the snap ring that locates the rear bearing on the output shaft. 241's have a history of this snap ring failing, so I always replace it rather than stretch it twice. It's fairly heavy, so a stout pair of snap ring pliers is handy. Once that is off, go ahead and remove the 4 bolts. That rear bearing will slide off of the shaft WITH the housing. There are pry places on two sides of the housing to get it started. Once that is off, you are close to being inside the transfer case. Only one more thing left. What you are looking at next is the oil pump. It looks to have 5 tabs that index within the housing you just removed. Mark it for reference, it's clock position matters, make sure you line up the tabs with the slots in the last housing you removed. You'll also notice a triangular hole in the pump cover that matches one in the base of the pump. These must align as well. You'll see I believe 5 or 6 phillips machine screws...they hold the top cover on the pump. Remove these, but before you do, give them a good tap with a hammer and punch to make sure they break free and you don't slip the phillips head. Once this is off there is nothing stopping you from finally taking the rear half off. Undo all the perimeter bolts. Again, there are two pry places on two sides....use them. It will come off kind of stiff because of the press in locating dowels. As you get it off, you will be inside the transfer case. Notice there is a large light tension spring and washer on the end of the shift rail that might fall off when you remove the cover. It's okay, and they probably will fall off, just make sure to put them back on the end of the shift rail before you close it up. The end of the shift rail is supported within the primary tailshaft housing. Be careful of the oil pick-up, it's only plastic, so don't crush it when you re-assemble the two halves. Next clean up the flanges, apply a bead of RTV, and reverse the operation. I know it seems like a lot of work, but trust me, it's really quite simple. Just take your time and don't force anything!!
Good luck
Chris
I read your description on your tranny swap and you said you had to open up the transfer case.
My transfer case is leaking between the two halfs of the case. How hard is it to just split the cases to reseal or replace the gasket? Is there a gasket or just RTV?
It looks like I could just do it without even taking the transfer case out of the truck by removing the rear driveshaft and splitting the case. What do you think?
I don't know anyone who has actually had one of these things apart so I figured I'd ask you.
Thanks for any info you could give me.
No problem. Yes it is only RTV, and yes you can do it in the truck. Other than the two main halves, you'll see, on the driveshaft end, a tailshaft housing with a seal that seals the driveshaft yoke. Remove the 4 bolts that hold it in place and take it off. Next there is another housing under that also held on by 4 bolts. Before you take them out, remove the snap ring that locates the rear bearing on the output shaft. 241's have a history of this snap ring failing, so I always replace it rather than stretch it twice. It's fairly heavy, so a stout pair of snap ring pliers is handy. Once that is off, go ahead and remove the 4 bolts. That rear bearing will slide off of the shaft WITH the housing. There are pry places on two sides of the housing to get it started. Once that is off, you are close to being inside the transfer case. Only one more thing left. What you are looking at next is the oil pump. It looks to have 5 tabs that index within the housing you just removed. Mark it for reference, it's clock position matters, make sure you line up the tabs with the slots in the last housing you removed. You'll also notice a triangular hole in the pump cover that matches one in the base of the pump. These must align as well. You'll see I believe 5 or 6 phillips machine screws...they hold the top cover on the pump. Remove these, but before you do, give them a good tap with a hammer and punch to make sure they break free and you don't slip the phillips head. Once this is off there is nothing stopping you from finally taking the rear half off. Undo all the perimeter bolts. Again, there are two pry places on two sides....use them. It will come off kind of stiff because of the press in locating dowels. As you get it off, you will be inside the transfer case. Notice there is a large light tension spring and washer on the end of the shift rail that might fall off when you remove the cover. It's okay, and they probably will fall off, just make sure to put them back on the end of the shift rail before you close it up. The end of the shift rail is supported within the primary tailshaft housing. Be careful of the oil pick-up, it's only plastic, so don't crush it when you re-assemble the two halves. Next clean up the flanges, apply a bead of RTV, and reverse the operation. I know it seems like a lot of work, but trust me, it's really quite simple. Just take your time and don't force anything!!
Good luck
Chris
10-25-2005, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by got...DIESEL?
no prob, now GIT R' DUN.....oh, and thanks for the help this weekend too!! The trans is not nearly as notchy as it was, after 150 miles, it is definitely smoothing out. And the clutch is easily manageable. Shouldn't be a problem at all for the spouse. Jean put 70 of those 150 miles on it and didn't have a problem with it.
10-26-2005, 09:10 PM
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not really, just eyeball the general condition of the chain and gears. If you have a lot of miles on it, and want to replace the chain it might not be a bad idea. Oh, there are a couple of things to do......be sure and clean off the magnet right behind the drain plug, and clean out the oil pump pick-up screen. The tube pops out of the pump....it is only held in place by an oring.
Anything much more than that and you pretty well have to remove the tcase for a thorough job.
Good Luck
Chris
Anything much more than that and you pretty well have to remove the tcase for a thorough job.
Good Luck
Chris
10-28-2005, 02:05 AM
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This article is very interesting. I was sent here by a lister on another forum. I'm glad he did. I want to go from a 47RE to a 5600 six speed. Looking at the pinouts on the Cummins engine controller it appears that it may be easier to swap in a controller from a manual trans. It appears that if I use my original controller, it will cause numerous faults centered around the missing automatic such as Lock up, speed control and overdrive. If I am mistaken, I would like to know.
Since I never paid attention to my floorboard in my 1996 2500, Can I assume that the center of the floorboard will unbolt for easy replacement of a later model?
Thanks!
Since I never paid attention to my floorboard in my 1996 2500, Can I assume that the center of the floorboard will unbolt for easy replacement of a later model?
Thanks!
10-30-2005, 10:34 AM
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unfortunatley I can not comment on much about the RE and its electronics becasue I don't have one. I wouldn't want to steer you wrong.
My truck had no floor pan panels, justa tunnel with a tcase hole in it. I opened up another for the trans shifter.
You will encounter several of the same things with a 5600 that I did with the 4500. Yours will just weigh 480 lbs instead of 200, and the shaft lengths will be different as well as some crossmember differences I believe. But it will work without too many issues. Good luck and thanks for visiting DTR!!
Chris
My truck had no floor pan panels, justa tunnel with a tcase hole in it. I opened up another for the trans shifter.
You will encounter several of the same things with a 5600 that I did with the 4500. Yours will just weigh 480 lbs instead of 200, and the shaft lengths will be different as well as some crossmember differences I believe. But it will work without too many issues. Good luck and thanks for visiting DTR!!
Chris
10-30-2005, 11:48 AM
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NV5600 weighs in at 360 dry...compared to the 250 of the NV4500.
Crossmember is different...but @ $180 just for that, you could go a long way at fabbing up your own brackets! I didn'y have them time to mess with it, so I bought the crossmember!
Chris
Crossmember is different...but @ $180 just for that, you could go a long way at fabbing up your own brackets! I didn'y have them time to mess with it, so I bought the crossmember!
Chris