Thought some of you might get a kick out of my re-power project. It started with a 1990 YJ Jeep with a 4.2L inline 6 carb motor, AX-15 5spd tranny and 3.07 axles. The tranny and axles are important for adapter availability and rpm’s (with the 30 inch tires on the jeep I’m turning 1600 rpms , torque peak, at 59 mph).

I’ve wanted to do this type of project for quite some time. After many months of researching I came to the conclusion I wanted to use the Cummins B3.3T for the engine. This was due to its simplicity (all mechanical), relatively light weight (~560 lbs with starter, intake and exhaust manifolds, etc.), physical dimensions (it’s much shorter then the 3.9), local service/parts (the Cummins dealership in Cedar Rapids is first rate), cost ($3780 for everything including intake grid heater cold start option), good torque (215 lb-ft @ 1600). The trick was finding a way to convert the SAE bellhousing into something that would work with an automotive transmission . . . There’s a company called Phoenix Castings (http://www.phxgrp.com/transmission.htm) which makes just the item!

After talking with the old engineer there I decided to go with the SAE4 to GM small block adapter set, and then used an Advanced Adapters AX-15 to GM full bell housing kit. The pictures in this photo gallery will help visualize what these adapters look like and how they interface:
"Update: The yahoo picture site closed and the pictures are now located at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10201173@N06


I wanted to avoid doing any body lifts so I ended up having to cut some clearance areas into the hood. I then used a hood scoop to cover up the holes. If a person did a 1-2 inch body lift there would be no need to cut the hood.

So far I’m extremely happy with the result. It’s been 1.5 months since I started driving it. Have ~1300 miles on it and its running great. Getting 30-32 mpg on mixed driving. It has no problems going 75 mph on the interstate (although it’s loud – the aerodynamics are horrible). The acceleration is adequate (although some of the power monsters on here would certainly call it inadequate). There is lots of tweaking that could be done to increase the performance (all the injection pump settings are easily accessible and adding an intercooler could easily be done). This project still has lots of possibilities in the next few years :cool:

Hope you all enjoy the pictures.

Thats sweet MPG! I might have to think about one for me.

That is cool. :cool:

Nicely done! Great veichle for a small diesel engine.

That is sweet! I want one!

MikeyB

What kind of tranny did you end up using?? Now you got me curious DANG IT!!! [laugh]


~Nick

Great MPG!

Nice job! What do the motor mounts look like?

It seems to me that this would be a great bronco / blazer type conversion too!

Yeah, an intercooler would be good for some more hp, maybe 20-30?? ANd maybe better MPG, too!

What was your original MPG, with the gasser?

Tony

Nice... My wife has been asking me if I could do that to her Cherokee... the 4L love gas and the 3.3 looks like a good cantidate... Did you keep the original Rear gears? is that the original Jeep manual tranny?
Shes been looking at some older CJ's so maybe...

OG

Now you got be looking...What made you choose the 3.3? Why not the B3.9? 99HP & 315Tq? Yes, it's ~3" longer....

Just curious.....


Tony

I chose that particular jeep model because the 1989.5+ yrs the YJ got the AX-15 with the inline 6. The AX-15 is a good candidate for the swap as it's pretty rugged, and there's lots of adapters made to connect it to a GM small block. Also, the inline 6 YJ's came with 3.07 axles as compared to the 4.10 with the 4 cylinder. Needed the 3.07 axles for rpm reasons (I wanted something I could drive at interstate speeds without redlining the engine). So, I kept the original tranny and axles.

Also re-used the radiator and it's way more than I need for cooling. I'm using an electric fan with an adjustable thermostate, and if I set the temp to come on above 190 deg it never kicks on. The B3.3T engine's thermostate starts to open at 180 and is fully open by 200 according to the owners manual.

I'm using two sets of mounts per side (the engine has three mounting possibilities per side). The front ones which are doing most of the supporting are cobbled together from L brackets. Two L brackets welded together with gussets that connect from the front engine mounts to the original jeep frame mounts (had to trim the tips of the jeep frame mounts for clearance) with about an inch of rubber dampening the vibrations. The rear mounts are just a single L bracket connecting to the rear engine mounting location and extending to the frame rail. The end going to the frame rail has a rubber foot for vibration isolation and only supports the engine in the verticle direction.

I was concerned with the weight and size of the 3.9. When I said the 3.3 was shorter than the 3.9 I was mostly concerned with the height difference. Would've taken a lot of body and suspension lift to get the 3.9 in there in such a way to not worry about the front axle hitting the oil pan. Also the 3.3 is about 200 lbs lighter than the 3.9.

The old 4.2 carb motor was giving me about 15-16 mpg in mixed driving. So I've effectively increased the fuel economy by 100%. The tires on the jeep are 30 inch mud tires with very aggressive tread. Could probably gain a few more mpg with A/T tires. However I like the looks of the mud tires :cool:

Also, I'm using an electric vacuum pump (Stainless Steele Brakes makes it) to run the brake booster so I still have brake assist. I do not currently have power steering and doubt I'll hook it up. It steers a little rough going slow but it keeps my wife from driving it.

Is there no option to add a vacuum/steering pump like on the 5.9 or the 3.9L?

would love to see some pics! [guitar]

would love to see some pics! [guitar]

Me too!! [coffee]

Regarding the power steering pump: This is an industrial/ag engine, not an automotive engine, so options like power steering pumps and vacuum pumps are very limited (that was part of the reason for finding the Pheonix Castings companies adapters which will convert an industrial SAE bellhousing engine into something an automotive transmission can work with). There is at least one PTO output on the engine that I was originally planning on using to drive a simple sae style hydraulic pump with a pressure relief bypass valve to drive the power steering, but it's really not that bad without the power steering. And not driving the pump also saves some hp and uses less fuel. I'ld rather let my arms work a bit harder at this point than fuss with adding the hydraulic pump.

To the guys asking for pictures: If you click on the link in my first post it should take you to the photo album on yahoo with lots of pictures.

One thing I forgot to mention regarding the engine. The B3.3T uses an automotive style rotary injection pump. So even though it's an industrial engine, it uses an automotive style injection pump. The non-turbo 3.3's use an industrial style inline injection pump.

Wonder if this would work as a power steering unit for your Jeep?
http://www.islandnet.com/~canev/KitsComp/Components/PowerSteeringKit.html

MikeyB

Wonder if this would work as a power steering unit for your Jeep?
http://www.islandnet.com/~canev/KitsComp/Components/PowerSteeringKit.html

MikeyB

Nice!

Two things concern me this. One is that my wife might want to drive the jeep more if it had power steering. The second is the amp draw. My 3.3 only has the 60 amp alternator which is adequate for my present setup. Adding this pump would overtax my electrical system. There is a larger alternator option for the 3.3 that I didn't get which would make this possible.

Thanks for the link.

My 3.3 only has the 60 amp alternator which is adequate for my present setup. Adding this pump would overtax my electrical system. There is a larger alternator option for the 3.3 that I didn't get which would make this possible.

Large, >150A aftermarket alternators are readily available, as well as GM 1-wire alternators, depending upon how you want to appreach the issue.

Example: http://www.alternatorparts.com/

Not trying to push...just trying to educate :cool:

HTH

Tony

Large, >150A aftermarket alternators are readily available, as well as GM 1-wire alternators, depending upon how you want to appreach the issue.

Example: http://www.alternatorparts.com/

Not trying to push...just trying to educate :cool:

HTH

Tony

Thanks for the information. I'm actually a novice at all this as I've never done anything remotely like this project before.

I'm about to use a Dakota Digital tach converter to take the "W" terminal of the B3.3's alternator and drive the jeep's tach input to get rpm information. It's my understanding that most diesel specific alternators like the one on the 3.3 have this special "W" terminal to give rpm information.

Awesome!!

my '89 yj better not act up or its gettin a transplant!

Put the alternator/tach interface unit on last night and now have a functional tach again. The product I used is this:
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=128/category_id=287/home_id=59/mode=prod/prd128.htm

It's hard to tell from their picture but the unit is about 3 in x 2in x 1 in. So I now have fully functional dash gauges again.

On the way into work this morning it was dark and raining so I had my headlights on, radio, the wipers going, and at idle at the stop lights my alternator was only keeping the battery voltage at about 13 volts. Hmmmm, I may have to upgrade my alternator after all . . .

Use a real voltmeter...not the one in the dash, they are notoriously off! Try a DVM & read volts directly at the battery.

13V at idle is not too bad. What you really need to check is amperage output of the alternator. If the AMP output of the alternator is more than 50% fo it's rated capacity, then, yes, I'd look into a bigger alternator.

How many amps was the original alternator rated for? How many for the new alt?

Tony

Use a real voltmeter...not the one in the dash, they are notoriously off! Try a DVM & read volts directly at the battery.

13V at idle is not too bad. What you really need to check is amperage output of the alternator. If the AMP output of the alternator is more than 50% fo it's rated capacity, then, yes, I'd look into a bigger alternator.

How many amps was the original alternator rated for? How many for the new alt?

Tony

Good idea, I'll do that. The amp rating on the 3.3's standard alternator I ordered is only 60Amps. I calculated my electrical load in my jeep with my accessories and thought this would be adequate. There is a bigger alternator that's optional with the 3.3 I could've got that still had the "W" terminal I need to drive the tach. You pointed out there may be some larger aftermarket units with this terminal as well but I haven't gotten around to looking for them yet.

It looks like you need the 'W' terminal for your tach....try the big truck stores...Rush Truck centers, Fleet Pride, Even Cummins for the alternator.

Some of the big trucks have to have an absolutely HUGE power budget & need the alternator(s) to power them!

HTH

Tony

Good idea, I'll do that. The amp rating on the 3.3's standard alternator I ordered is only 60Amps. I calculated my electrical load in my jeep with my accessories and thought this would be adequate. There is a bigger alternator that's optional with the 3.3 I could've got that still had the "W" terminal I need to drive the tach. You pointed out there may be some larger aftermarket units with this terminal as well but I haven't gotten around to looking for them yet.
You could just take the alt that you have to a good alt shop and have it reworked to the amps that you need.
I did that to my last PSD and I have it bumped to 200amps and the tech acted like they do it all the time... LOok in to it.
Oilguy

What is a good source for the 3.3t?

What is a good source for the 3.3t?

Got mine through the local Cummins dealer in Cedar Rapids. They handle a lot of them and were substantially less expensive than other places I had contacted.

Looks like Cummins has a common rail version making 304 ft-lbs that meets tier III emission's standards (http://www.cummins.com/cmi/content.jsp?siteId=1&langId=1033&dataId=995&newsInfo=true&menuId=4).

Got my boost and egt gauges in. If you go to the yahoo photo link I've added a few pics showing the locations.

The nice thing is the exhaust was already drilled and taped from the factory and had two 1/8 NPT plugs in the holes. I'm using the hole that covers the front two cylinders as they are the farthest away from the intake port and should be the hottest (similiar to how our six cylinders have the hotest cylinder being the farthest away from the intake port).

The origininal cross over pipe had a 1/8 NPT port in it for ether injection for cold starting. When I added the intake gride heater I needed a new crossover pipe and lost the port. So I drilled and taped the grid heater for the boost connection.

I'm using the old crossover pipe to connect up a top mount intercooler. I have a late 80's mazda rotary turbo top mount intercooler which is just the right dimensions (2 inch in and out, and the input port lines up with the turbo and the down port comes off the bottom right above the engines intake port -- and it's looking like it'll fit under my black hood scoop that's already on the jeep). I wanted baseline egt and boost #'s before I start turning up the fuel and adding the intercooler.

The documents I received from the Cummins dealer many months ago which showed such things as max boost and egt's are right on. I'm seeing a max boost of 12.5-12.6 psi and max EGT's of ~960-970 F and the documents stated 12.77 psi and 970 F. I was originally concerned their EGT #'s were post turbo but it turns out they are pre turbo. This is good as it leaves lots of room for more fuel :o

So my question to the forum is in regards to how to approach the tuning. I was thinking about swapping in the intercooler right away and checking egt and boost (the intercooler by itself should improve the thermodynamic efficiency of the engine as I understand the Carnot cycle). Then turning up the fuel. Thinking if I keep the max EGT below 1200 F I should be good? I was thinking I could avoid increasing the boost since the intercooler should increase the air density at the same boost pressure. Is this correct thinking?

Awesome job!!

I have been ratholing all the info I can about a diesel jeep some day. I currently have one with a 4.2 and an auto.

Thinking if I keep the max EGT below 1200 F I should be good?

IF the same valves & seats are used on the 3.3 as the 5.9, yes. You may want to contact Cummins engineering to check deeper, before cooing a head or valves.

I was thinking I could avoid increasing the boost since the intercooler should increase the air density at the same boost pressure. Is this correct thinking?

Yes...Remember the ideal gas law: pv=nrt Pressure, Volume, and R (gas constant) are constants...Number of molecules and Temperature are variable. rearranging the equation...PV/RT=N Basically, you want to maximize the Number of molecules (mass of air into system) To do that, you have minimize the temperature (denominator of eq.)

You can also compare before and after to estimate improvement...PV/R=nt...PVR are constants, so comparing existing (state 1) to proposed (state 2): n1t1=n2t2 or t1/t2=n2/n1... If t1=100f; t2=75f; =100/75=1.33 or 33% move volume of air into the cylinder! You'll have to take measurements to verify for your situation...these are just swag numbers.

HTH

Tony

Thanks for the input.

I got the intercooler in last night. I'm pretty certain I've voided the warranty on the engine at this point [laugh]. The photo link has the updated pictures toward the bottom of the page and they begin with "Intercooler".

It actually fits really good. I had to modify the portion of the intercooler which connects at the turbo (had to shorten it a bit). Otherwise it's a near perfect fit. The hood scoop has adequate room so it's not contacting the intercooler. Think I can do better in directing airflow over the intercooler as my thermometer probe on top of the intercooler shows it being ~20 degrees above ambient when the engine is at operating conditions and I'm driving down the road.

Data points: Max boost is the same. No noticeable increase in turbo lag (actually the boost needle moves so fast I'ld almost say there was no lag). Max EGT's have dropped from ~960-970 F to ~900 F. Think if I was maxing out the engine for minutes on end the max EGT's would continue to drift up some more (need better airflow over the intercooler?). With the intercooler the max EGT goes to about 880 and slowly drifts up to 900 over the course I did my testing pre/post intercooler. Without the intercooler the EGT's hit 960-970 pretty fast and stayed there.

In regards to adding fuel the Cummins guy I talked with said staying below 1200 "should be safe".

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to remove those anti-tampering covers on the injection pump screws? I think they're just plastic caps and was going to use my dremel tool and cut them off. Is there a better way?

What a neat project. I've wondered why the 3.3s weren't used more often for this type of swap. The new ones are common rail and rated at 110 hp.

After much fussing around this weekend I discovered just how bad the aerodynamics of the jeep really are. . .

I had been trying to get air to enter through the front of the hood scoop and go through and out the bottom of the intercooler. The more I tried to isolate the path the hotter the air going through the intercooler became (actually, the air was flowing out the front of the hood scoop). I started taping pieces of string on and around my hood so I could watch them while going down the road to see what the wind was doing. Turns out the best place to get air flow is up by the windshield. The wind seems to curl as it hits the windshield and push down and forward along the hood. I'm going to have to get another $50 hood scoop from Summit as I've carved this one up pretty good. Anyway, I now have air flowing through the intercooler that's about ~5 degrees above ambient. Think I'll call that good for now.

Removed the head of the anti tampering device on the fuel pump last night. That took longer than I expected and took ~8 heavy duty cutting disks on my dremel tool to accomplish. I've added a picture showing a close up of the injection pump with the location of the fueling screw and also the max rpm screw (which I haven't messed with and it still has it's anti tamper cover on).

Turned the fueling screw 1/2 turn clockwise so far. Noticeable increase in torque and my EGT's with the intercooler are only maxing out at around 980 F on a 3rd gear pull up the hill I've been using for testing. Boost is the same since I'm not messing with the waste gate. No visible smoke from the exhaust during the pulls. I'll probably turn it another 1/4 to 1/2 turn today and check things out and report more tomorrow.

Another 1/4 turn. Yesterday afternoon was quite hot here for this time of year ~ 90+ F. The air temp was warmer than my previous tests. The max EGT's seem to occur when I'm in overdrive and at the torque peak (1600 rpm) and accelerating up a long hill. In these cases I can get the EGT's to about 1050 F. On the test hill I've been using for baseline EGT's I'm now peaking at about 990 -1000 F.

The jeep has gone from "adequate" to down right "snappy".

Sir, put down the 6mm socket and step away from the injection pump [laugh]

Too Cool!

How has your mileage been affected?

Don't know yet. I've been doing lots of short runs to test air ducting to the intercooler, and then lots of max fueling runs to test EGT's. I would be surprised if I break 30 mpg on my next fill up. I'm hoping with the intercooler that I should see a small improvement in fuel economy (if I can stay out of the fuel). I'll report back after I get a couple fill ups.

post some pics, this sounds awesome

never mind I found the link to the pics, nice work!

Filled up yesterday. Hand calculated 30.2 mpg. I'm a little surprised it was this good considering all the short test runs and full fuel tests I was doing. This bodes well . . .

Average fuel economy is right at 30.0 with a low of 26.3 and a high of 33.7. This is over the last three months and ~2900 mls.

I found this site today via a link on the Jeep2Diesel site I help admin.

Pretty cool repower...tell me...is there a web resourse that identifies what SAE# an engine falls under?

Forgive me...I have very little knowledge (beyond the basics) about industrial engines.

For example: Would the 3.9 (4BT) be considered "industrial" and have an "SAE" numbered bellhousing? I know that these have been used in truck applications and that the bellhousing should be the same as the 6BT, but I am curious as to where I can find more info on the SAE ratings. (?)

How loud is the B3.3T ? Is it loud like a 12v ? What about driving down the road ?

That project is really coming along for you--you've got a great product to show for all your hard work:) That intercooler looks like it grew there, too. JMO, but you'd be miles ahead with a front mount intercooler, though I'm not sure what your space constraints are. I see you're quickly learning how addictive the power and economy of a diesel is. Even with the pump fully maxed, my mileage has stayed the same or gotten better, overall. Please keep us updated on your progress--this is a fascinating project!

Thanks.

I was told the B3.3 is a completely different animal than the 3.9/5.9 engines and none of the adapters made to connect the 3.9/5.9 to automotive transmissions would work (I was told this by those I consider experts and did not pursue that avenue any further). The B3.3 comes in a variety of SAE housings the last time I checked. Most engine manufacturers list the bellhousing types in the engine descriptions. Phoenix Castings has adapters for many types of SAE to automotive style housings.

I believe there are industrial versions of the 3.9/5.9 but I am by no means an expert in that area.



I found this site today via a link on the Jeep2Diesel site I help admin.

Pretty cool repower...tell me...is there a web resourse that identifies what SAE# an engine falls under?

Forgive me...I have very little knowledge (beyond the basics) about industrial engines.

For example: Would the 3.9 (4BT) be considered "industrial" and have an "SAE" numbered bellhousing? I know that these have been used in truck applications and that the bellhousing should be the same as the 6BT, but I am curious as to where I can find more info on the SAE ratings. (?)

I'm a bit embarresed to say I've never ridden in a 12V. It's louder than my VW and common rail Cummins but quieter than my Kubota. Once you get above idle it's actually pretty descent, and above 40 mph the wind noise from the Jeep dominates (have I mentioned how aerodynamic the jeep isn't).

How loud is the B3.3T ? Is it loud like a 12v ? What about driving down the road ?

Thanks for the kind words.

That project is really coming along for you--you've got a great product to show for all your hard work:) That intercooler looks like it grew there, too. JMO, but you'd be miles ahead with a front mount intercooler, though I'm not sure what your space constraints are. I see you're quickly learning how addictive the power and economy of a diesel is. Even with the pump fully maxed, my mileage has stayed the same or gotten better, overall. Please keep us updated on your progress--this is a fascinating project!

Nice! keep us posted on how far the screw has addicted you.

Update.

I've tinkered with the max rpm governor screw and turned the fueling screw another 1/4 turn. Max EGT's are still below 1100 F and exhaust is clear (except during shifts when my friend reports the engine releases a puff of smoke -- much like my VW does). The engine originally started cutting off fuel at 2600 rpm but it's now been raised to ~2900 rpm. This should still be quite safe as the spec sheet shows the destructive harmonics starting at 3250 rpm. This little bit of extra rpm makes the jeep more driveable in certain situations (like merging onto the interstate).

It's been really cold and windy here as of late. Morning commutes have often been below freezing and the engine takes awhile to warm up. Think I'll have to rig up some type of front cover. Last fill up only averaged 28 mpg. Thinking this is due to the cold/wind and possibly changing mix of diesel fuel.

Other things I've done in the past couple months to "dieselize" the jeep are: replaced steel fuel tank with a plastic one to minimize condensation. Added a Stanadyne Fuel Manager with 100W fuel heater and 5um fuel filter/H2O seperator elements inline with the factor fuel filter/H2O seperator. Added an electric lift pump and an inline mechanical pressure gauge. Replaced the trouble prone vacuum actuated front axle engagement motor with a mechanical Posi-Lok system.

This will probably be the last update for awhile as I'm about done tinkering. I appreciate all the kind words and helpful suggestions offered through this thread. Peace.

Update.

Was looking at ways to try to estimate what the hp/torque of the B3.3T is doing in the jeep. Was looking into G-Tech type devices that measure acceleration and how that data can be used to estimate hp/torque. Turns out my boss has an older 3 axis accelerometer (Valentine g-analyst) from his days of racing and he was kind enough to let me borrow it. I spent some time this weekend measuring the straight line acceleration of the jeep. I've averaged multiple runs over the same stretch of road (going both ways to account for any elevation change) and did some number crunching.

Measurements were made at 45 F and 850 ft elevation in 2nd gear (2.33 gear ratio). My axle ratio is 3.07, my wheels are 30x9.50, but when I measure the radius from the ground to center of the axle the radius is 14.7. Assuming under load the tire might squat a bit more I'm using 14.5 inch for the tire radius. For total weight I'm using 3500 pounds. I've measured the jeep at the scales at the dump and they claim the weight without me in the jeep is 3500. I think that's too high. From what I've gathered a 4 cyl manual tran jeep YJ with a soft top is 2940 lbs. I'm assuming the diesel engine, with a hard top, 5 bigger tires, steel rims, and from spring helpers, and my 190 pounds puts me about 3500-3600 lbs. I'm using 3500 to be conservative. Using a drivetrain efficiency of 85% (seems typical for rear wheel drive vehicles).

From the acceleration numbers you can calculate force if you know the mass (my assumption of 3500 lbs). From this you can back calculate all the way to the flywheel. Also from the acceleration numbers you can calculate velocity (if you know the initial velocity of the run, which I did from my speedometer). If you know velocity and your gear/axle ratio and tire radius you can calculate rpm. If you know rpm you can calculate horsepower from the flywheel torque data. As a check on the accelerometer data I used this to calculate velocity and compared it to the speedometers readings and it matches my observed speedometer readings. This gives credibility to the accuracy of the meter. I have not corrected for temp, elevation, or wind resistance.

I've added a picture of the calculated, estimated horsepower and torque numbers. Looks like I'm in the neighborhood of 340 ft-lbs and 139 hp at the flywheel!

I've also noticed from the last couple fueling adjustments that the waste gate is becoming over powered. When I was below a 1/2 turn on the fuel screw the max boost was ~12.5. Now that I'm at a full turn the boost goes as high as 14 psi. This higher boost may be why my max EGT's haven't really increased over the last 1/4 turn adjustments?

Do you know what psi your wastegate is set to open at?

Just because you only see 14psi doesn't mean that the wastegate is being overpowered. Before you probably only had enough fuel for 12psi and now you have enough for 14psi, but the wastegate may not open untill 16psi. You can only make so much boost for the given amount of fuel.

Do you know what psi your wastegate is set to open at?

Just because you only see 14psi doesn't mean that the wastegate is being overpowered. Before you probably only had enough fuel for 12psi and now you have enough for 14psi, but the wastegate may not open untill 16psi. You can only make so much boost for the given amount of fuel.

The spec sheet for the stock engine says max boost of 12.77 psi. You may be right that this is a limit of the fueling and not the waste gate opening. I don't see anywhere in my documentation that states specifically where the waste gate is set to open.

I'm assuming since my EGT's are still really good (~1100 F max) that the turbo is still operating in an efficient manner at 14 psi. Is this a correct assumption?

I'm assuming since my EGT's are still really good (~1100 F max) that the turbo is still operating in an efficient manner at 14 psi. Is this a correct assumption?

I would have to agree with that assumption. I would say that at 1100 (pre turbo?) your probably getting pretty close to the max the turbo can produce. And those are really some impressive numbers!!

I would have to agree with that assumption. I would say that at 1100 (pre turbo?) your probably getting pretty close to the max the turbo can produce. And those are really some impressive numbers!!

Pre turbo numbers (there's a pic in the yahoo link that shows the probe location).

Update.

I've added a picture of the calculated, estimated horsepower and torque numbers. Looks like I'm in the neighborhood of 340 ft-lbs and 139 hp at the flywheel!



Well, I'm embarrased. The numbers just seemed too high for me to believe. Tried the same test on my friends WRX STI and got too high of numbers as well. Turns out I completely blew one of my conversion constants. I over estimated the hp/torque from the acceleration numbers.

On the plus side, using the correct unit conversions puts my friends WRX STI calculated hp/tq from the accelerometer at 300 ft-lbs (one data point peaks at 305) and 314 hp (he has a cat back exhaust which is supposed to gain ~5 hp). This was using 15% drivetrain loss. These numbers are very accurate compared to actual dyno runs.

Using the corrected spreadsheet and actual measured weights for my jeep (from the gravel pit ~ 3850 lbs with me in the jeep and 3/4 tank of fuel) and 20% drivetrain loss (with bigger/wider, lugged, mud tires from what I've read 20% is closer than the 15% estimate I was using) puts me at 273 ft-lbs and 117 hp.

Sorry for the mistake in the original calculations.

Very cool! Regardless of the numbers, how is the Jeep to drive? Are you satisfied VS all you've put into the project?

Very cool! Regardless of the numbers, how is the Jeep to drive? Are you satisfied VS all you've put into the project?

I've been delighted with the jeep.

At idle it's a bit rough and is at an oscillation frequency with something in the jeep when it's cold which causes a rattle that I don't like, but if I move the rpm's above 1000 it smooths out. I've fiddled with my homemade motor mounts several times and made small, incremental improvements in the vibration at idle, but it's never going to be as smooth as my VW or my inline 6 Cummins.

Now that temps are getting colder (well, today it's 70 but it's been in the 30's and 40's most of the last month) I can say that the grid heater is a good option to have. Starting the jeep after sitting outside all day at temps below 40 results in a 5-10 second black exhaust show. Using the grid heater results in brief puff of smoke. Will be interesting to see how it does with real cold weather that will soon be upon us.

With the cold temps and co-introduction of winter/ULSD fuel blended with my normal biodiesel concentrations (40-60% at these temps) has caused my fuel mileage to drop to ~27.5 mpg for back and forth to work trips (last three tanks 27.5, 27.5, 27.6 mpg).

Update.

Motor mounts:

Switched my home made rubber isolator between the engine and frame mount to one of these Dodge V8 isolators (http://www.motormountz.com/motor-mounts-products.php?make=DODGE+TRUCK&model=W+SERIES+4WD&year=1978&getData=1&submit=Search)

This type happens to fit nicely with what I was already doing, was dirt cheap, and was designed to handle similar engine weights. Significant improvement in vibration at idle and is extremely smooth above 1700 rpm.

Fueling screw:

Turned the fueling screw up some more. Went another 1/2 turn but had to bring it back 1/4 due to the engine rpm's "hanging". When I would accelerate and push the clutch in to shift the engine's rpm's would "float" and take too long to drift back down for the next shift point. Backing it off eliminated the problem.

Cold starts:
Yesterday was the coldest day of the year so far. The jeep sat outside at work all day. The morning temps were ~13 F and only warmed to about 20 F by mid afternoon when I left. Ran the grid heater for about 5-6 seconds then started the jeep. Lots of white/gray smoke for about 5-6 seconds. Think I'll increase the grid heater cycle to about 10 seconds and see how that works. Right now I'm triggering the relay for the grid heater with a simple "push button" switch in the cab. This seems to be working well. I'm using a single battery at the moment that is the same one I use in my wife's VW Jetta TDI. It seems to be doing well with running the grid heater and turning over the engine.

Fuel Mileage:
The station where I'm fueling has had a 70/30 blend for the past month. Back and forth to work (~16 mls one way, mostly county rds and freeway) fuel economy is staying ~ 27-28 mpg.

ive actually been inspired by your post (long ago) and ive been in the process of putting a b3.3T i ordered into a 1991 Cherokee...
i will post pics...

Excellent! Looking forward to the pictures.

I almost went that route due to the difficulty in finding a descent YJ at a non outrageous price. The XJ's are more affordable and would produce a more practicle conversion. Also with their better aerodynamics you should get better fuel economy.

So how far along are you? What are you using for adapters? Do you have the AX-15 tranny? Are you doing a body lift for the hood clearance or doing a scoop?

ive actually been inspired by your post (long ago) and ive been in the process of putting a b3.3T i ordered into a 1991 Cherokee...
i will post pics...

Excellent! Looking forward to the pictures.

I almost went that route due to the difficulty in finding a descent YJ at a non outrageous price. The XJ's are more affordable and would produce a more practicle conversion. Also with their better aerodynamics you should get better fuel economy.

So how far along are you? What are you using for adapters? Do you have the AX-15 tranny? Are you doing a body lift for the hood clearance or doing a scoop?


You can't do a body lift on a cherokee as its a unibody. So I guess you'd have to do a scoop.

I've got a cherokee that needs a new engine so keep us informed as to how it fits!!

Thanks, Aaron

all i did was cowl the hood... it fit fine but it was right up against the underside of the hood.. as for the transmission i used a TH400 ---> Atlas with an adaptor from Phoenix Adaptors.. umm custom d44's front and rear

i used a front mount intercooler.. i see you used a TMIC

Nice! Can't wait to see your pictures.

all i did was cowl the hood... it fit fine but it was right up against the underside of the hood.. as for the transmission i used a TH400 ---> Atlas with an adaptor from Phoenix Adaptors.. umm custom d44's front and rear

i used a front mount intercooler.. i see you used a TMIC

Someone private messaged me with some general type questions and thought I would add my response to the public thread.


Hello

As these are general questions I would like to keep them going in the thread so I won't have to re-type them for other people. I will copy this reply over to the thread.

My motor mounts are just two 1/4" thick L brackets welded together in such a way that they extend from the engine out (the first L) then up and over (the second L) to the original frame mounts (had to trim the tips off the originals to clear the engine during placement). I originally used rubber in between with screws going through two points on the side of the rubber. This offerred verticle vibration isolation but no side to side or front back isolation. Now I have the older universal type Dodge V8 vibration mounts (there's a link in the thread towards the end) in between the motor mount and the frame mount which help a lot with the vibration. I'm also using a single L bracket on each rear engine mount to extend out to the frame rails with a rubber foot to give additional verticle support (the rubber foot is just sitting on the frame and could slide side to side, but adds a lot of support verticly).

The injection pump does have a low idle set screw and could easily be adjusted up. I just use my foot to adjust the idle level. With the new mounts the vibration isn't bad at all.

Do you mean the intake gride heater or the vehicle heater which warms the cabin? The vehicle still has the heater core and there are provisions on the engine for two lines to go to a heater core just like on a regular automotive engine. So I just found out what diameter line the heater core needed and pulled the plugs from the engine and hooked it up.

I'm using the same ignition setup as the original engine had. The same lines trigger the starter and supply it with power. The only additional connection is the fuel solenoid cutoff switch.

Using the same fuel lines as the original jeep had. It had a supply and return line routed up to the engine compartment. The 4.2L inline six did not have a fuel pump in the fuel tank. This is a good thing in my opinion. I replaced the steel tank with a plastic one to reduce condensation issues and am re-using the original sending unit (minus the mesh screen on the pickup tube). I'm using an electric lift pump up in the engine compartment with a small see through coarse mesh filter pre lift pump then a stanadyne fuel manager with a heated filter head and 5um absolute H20 seperating filter and then the OEM fuel filter/H2O seperator.

Good luck on your project.

I'm having trouble with oil pressure sending units. My third sending unit (first one was from the old gas engine and lasted ~200 mls, the second one was a new aftermarket part for a jeep which lasted ~2000 mls, this last one was a replacement for the first and is starting to go after ~3000 mls) is starting to fail.

The engine has over 5000 mls now and I've gone through 3 sending units. The problem is the engine when cold has really large oil pressure (rails my dash meter which is over 90 psi, the owners manual says the engine can hit ~138 psi on a cold engine). Think this pressure is killing the sending units.

From what I've gathered my 04 Cummins in the Ram uses a pressure switch and not a real pressure sending unit. Is this correct? What about the older 12V and 24V engines?

Anyone have suggestions on what to use for this situation? Any part numbers?

I'm having trouble with oil pressure sending units. My third sending unit (first one was from the old gas engine and lasted ~200 mls, the second one was a new aftermarket part for a jeep which lasted ~2000 mls, this last one was a replacement for the first and is starting to go after ~3000 mls) is starting to fail.

The engine has over 5000 mls now and I've gone through 3 sending units. The problem is the engine when cold has really large oil pressure (rails my dash meter which is over 90 psi, the owners manual says the engine can hit ~138 psi on a cold engine). Think this pressure is killing the sending units.

From what I've gathered my 04 Cummins in the Ram uses a pressure switch and not a real pressure sending unit. Is this correct? What about the older 12V and 24V engines?

Anyone have suggestions on what to use for this situation? Any part numbers?


The older 12valves do use an electric sender. If you look in the tech faq's in 1st gen part numbers I believe it may be in there. What I don't know is what the operating resistance of the sender is and if it would match what your gauge is. Make sense?

http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/faq/faq.php?display=faq&nr=145&catnr=20&prog=1&lang=en&onlynewfaq=1

Oil Psi Sender
Cummins Part# 3923200

Another suggestion, forget the POS stock gauges, and go MECHANICAL!!!

Thanks for the part number. I can't seem to find the maximum oil pressure spec for the 12V engines. Does anyone have any numbers on what they have seen for a cold engine's maximum oil pressure?

about your conversion, does the engine have glow plugs, or does the intake grid heater take their place. You say you are having high pressure spikes that seem to be killing your senders, have you thought about a autometer gauge with something like 0-150 psi oil pressure sender.

Do you know much about this new QSB 3.3L Turbo with common rail. I think the added power would be great. And having reduced emmissions would be good. Does anyone out there know about the computer controls the engine comes with, I have been doing a little research and it sounds like you can basically configure the engine using a computer. Can anyone tell me about this new version of the engine?

thanks all...

No glow plugs. The intake grid heater is the cold start device just like in the Ram Cummins applications. Come to think of it, do any of the Cummins engines use glow plugs? Someone more knowledgeable than I may know for certain.

I may have to go to a mechanical gauge or something like the autometer you suggested. It is becoming annoying.

From what I've read the common rail version of this engine has the same internal setup (valves, pistons, etc.), is a tier III emission compliant engine, can make 305 ft-lbs of torque out of the box, is intercooled, weighs a bit more, is computer controlled, and will cost more. If I recall correctly the common rail max pressure is ~16,000 psi in these applications.

I'm pretty close to these power/torque levels with the tweaking I've done. I like simple and it's hard to beat a totally mechanical setup in that regards. Also use high percentages of biodiesel and from what I've gathered rotary injection pumps are more compatible with this fuel than a common rail would be. However with this engine limiting the rail pressure to only 16,000 psi the issues of polymerization of fuel may not be as big an issue.

about your conversion, does the engine have glow plugs, or does the intake grid heater take their place. You say you are having high pressure spikes that seem to be killing your senders, have you thought about a autometer gauge with something like 0-150 psi oil pressure sender.

Do you know much about this new QSB 3.3L Turbo with common rail. I think the added power would be great. And having reduced emmissions would be good. Does anyone out there know about the computer controls the engine comes with, I have been doing a little research and it sounds like you can basically configure the engine using a computer. Can anyone tell me about this new version of the engine?

thanks all...

Here's a good artlice on the B3.3T and the future common rail version
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FZX/is_3_72/ai_n16118697

thanks for all good info. My Jeep that would be getting the transplant is a 1999. And in my humble opinion emissions are some what of an important issue. I live in michigan and we have no testing what so ever, that could change at a moments notice. That is the only reason I would want to go with the electronic controlled one.

I would like to get some more pros and cons from you, as you have one of these engines.

I'm not sure what else you want to know. Anything in particular?

I would like to get some more pros and cons from you, as you have one of these engines.

mostly I would like to know the specifics of the electrical system. Do you hook up the wires to the alternator just the same as if it was the inline 6 in there. What about the fuel cut off soleonid? Any pictures you have would be great.

Is the jeep faster now than it was with the gasser in there? I saw your milage number, absoulty amazing. 30mpg in a jeep, with decent performance. I have a 4 banger in my jeep and I really wanted some added performance, I thought about a turbo and supercharger, all are very expensive. I thought about a 302 or 350 swap, but I would almost be replacing everything, and still might only get 15 mpg or even worse. I looked all around for a usable diesel engine, it seems like the best way to do. And you will have something one of a kind and very unique.

The alternator hook up was slightly different. It had a third terminal for use for a tach signal. This is talked about earlier in this thread. I can't recall if the connector with the three pigtails came with the engine or if I bought it seperate from the Cummins dealer. The connector plugs into the alternator and it was just a matter of cutting and splicing the other lines into the wires from the old alternator. I don't know if the electrical system of the fuel injected gas engines would be significantly different from the carb motor.

The fuel cut off solenoid is wired to an accessory signal (when the key is on there's 12V going to the solenoid connection which opens the fuel flow).

The jeep was about the same quickness as the 4.2 carb motor before I modified the B3.3T. After mods it's much quicker. I rotated the tires a few days ago and weighed a wheel/tire combination. 68 lbs each. Those steel rims and the mud terrain tires are very heavy. I'm going to be replacing these with pro comp A/T tires and aluminum rims in the near future and this will save ~15 lbs per wheel/tire combo. This should significantly improve the quickness (and the lower rolling resistance should help fuel milage a bit as well).

I don't know if it's the best way to go or not. Depends on what you're looking for I guess. I've been very happy with it.

mostly I would like to know the specifics of the electrical system. Do you hook up the wires to the alternator just the same as if it was the inline 6 in there. What about the fuel cut off soleonid? Any pictures you have would be great.

Is the jeep faster now than it was with the gasser in there? I saw your milage number, absoulty amazing. 30mpg in a jeep, with decent performance. I have a 4 banger in my jeep and I really wanted some added performance, I thought about a turbo and supercharger, all are very expensive. I thought about a 302 or 350 swap, but I would almost be replacing everything, and still might only get 15 mpg or even worse. I looked all around for a usable diesel engine, it seems like the best way to do. And you will have something one of a kind and very unique.

I think the work you did is absoultly great. For about a year now I have been looking far and wide for the best engine to do a transplant into my jeep. I had seen the B3.3 once before and thought wow, a nice sized engine that dosent weight to much. Then over on the Turbo diesel register boards I herd a story of a guy who bought one only to find out it dident have the same bolt pattern as the other B series engines. He was bummed. From then one I just crossed this one off my list.

I am intrested about your front suspension. Have you had to put in stiffer spring? I think I remember reading the engine weight was ~580 pounds. I have seen things in 4wd Hardware for lift kits saying if you have a V8 or a front mount winch to order these other springs becase they are stiffer and will keep your jeep level. Did you have to do anything like that?

What is it like driving the diesel? I assume the engine does not bog down, with my 4 banger you have to be above 1500 rpm in 1-3 gear and 1750 in 4 and 5. On the highway where does the engine like to spin at? Does it mind 1800-1900 rpm. Looking at my gears and tires and that is where I expect it will be.

Once again, great job

Thanks for the nice words.

The jeep had been used with a snow plow for several years and the front springs were sagging a bit even with the inline 6 gasoline engine (which is no light weight). Bought some leaf spring helpers (half leaf type) from the parts store for about $30 which helped. A couple months ago I bought some heavy duty oem front leaf springs and they are doing great so far. The spec sheet I have says the total weight (with intake and exhaust manifolds, turbo, starter, etc.) is 567 lbs.

The engine is extremely smooth above 1700 rpms's with the new engine mounts. At 1600 at full throttle it's hard to see out the rear view mirror due to some vibrations. The manual says you can spend 30 secs at full throttle below the torque peak but no more. I keep it above 1600 except for brief periods while shifting to the next gear. Even before I modified the fueling parameters the engine had no trouble keeping the jeep going at 70-75mph down the interstate and up the hills without down shifting. There was one hill around here that was on a 55mph road that was extremely steep that the jeep would lose some speed and settle at 1600 rpm at about 58 mph midway up the hill and hold its speed at that point. Now I can keep accelerating up in 5th with no problems.

I've been doing some tests with running in 4th gear at 1900-2000 rpm (instead of 5th at 1600 rpm) for the portion of my drive to work that is on county roads. The 4th gear runs seem to be returning slightly better fuel economy but it's a bit premature to say for certain. The spec'd brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) is 0.357 lb/hp-hr at 1600 and 0.393 at 2600 (can only find data for those two rpm points). This is pretty close to my VW's engine. So if the jeep needs 30hp to push it down the road that's about 39 mpg. At 40hp it's about 29.5mpg. From my fuel mileage logs it appears I'm needing about 40 hp to move my jeep back and forth to work.



I think the work you did is absoultly great. For about a year now I have been looking far and wide for the best engine to do a transplant into my jeep. I had seen the B3.3 once before and thought wow, a nice sized engine that dosent weight to much. Then over on the Turbo diesel register boards I herd a story of a guy who bought one only to find out it dident have the same bolt pattern as the other B series engines. He was bummed. From then one I just crossed this one off my list.

I am intrested about your front suspension. Have you had to put in stiffer spring? I think I remember reading the engine weight was ~580 pounds. I have seen things in 4wd Hardware for lift kits saying if you have a V8 or a front mount winch to order these other springs becase they are stiffer and will keep your jeep level. Did you have to do anything like that?

What is it like driving the diesel? I assume the engine does not bog down, with my 4 banger you have to be above 1500 rpm in 1-3 gear and 1750 in 4 and 5. On the highway where does the engine like to spin at? Does it mind 1800-1900 rpm. Looking at my gears and tires and that is where I expect it will be.

Once again, great job

I currently have 4.10's and I think at highway speeds I would be a little high, like in the 2100-2200 range. I know the 6AT is a little happier at high revs. But its no longer produced and parts are hard to find. So it seems a regear is necessary. I would like to run larger than stock tires for my clearence in the back 40 acres. Planning on 33's with 3.73s and an NV3550 trans. Should be about 1950 ot 2000 at 65 mph. With your experience with the engine do you think it would be happy there?

Whats the fastest rpm the engine can run?

The engine is really smooth above 1700 rpm. I've been cruising in 4th gear at ~2000 rpm on the 55 mph county roads (actually going 60mph at 2000 rpm in 4th gear which is a 1:1 ratio for the AX-15). It's really smooth all the way up to 2600 rpm. I've modified the screw which sets the high rpm limit (discussed earlier in this thread) and can now rev up to ~3100 rpm. The spec sheets show the max rpm limit of 3250 rpm being where the "destructive harmonics" start to occur. I rarely go over 2600 rpm unless I need to accelerate fast and merge onto the interstate. The times I'm above 2600 I'm not paying attention to how smooth the engine is as I'm usually focusing on merging with traffic or something like that.

I put a mechanical oil pressure gauge on a couple days ago. Bought a cheap Sunpro 100 psi gauge from the local parts store. Yikes. I see why I was blowing those sending units. After the engine is warmed up the idle psi is ~50 and running down the road it peaks about 80-85 psi. However, when the engine is cold I'm pegging the 100 psi gauge even at idle. I have a 150 psi mechanical gauge on order. One of the extra documents I got from Cummins shows an obscure reference to the max cold engine oil pressure being 135 psi (I was wrong early when I said 138 psi). I believe it. It's just so much higher oil pressure than any engine I've ever worked with before.

Oh, and I'm using Shell Rotella 5w-40 synthetic engine oil.


I currently have 4.10's and I think at highway speeds I would be a little high, like in the 2100-2200 range. I know the 6AT is a little happier at high revs. But its no longer produced and parts are hard to find. So it seems a regear is necessary. I would like to run larger than stock tires for my clearence in the back 40 acres. Planning on 33's with 3.73s and an NV3550 trans. Should be about 1950 ot 2000 at 65 mph. With your experience with the engine do you think it would be happy there?

Whats the fastest rpm the engine can run?

thats good info there. I was under the impression that this thing could only spin to like 2600 and in a car thats not very good. But 3000 is alright. What kind of oil pressure gague and sender do you have on order?
Where do you get oil filters at for your engine, I assume the only place that has them is the Cummins dealer, they are not something you can get at Auto Zone?
How ofton do you change your oil?

Have a 150psi VDO mechanical gauge coming. It doesn't have a connection kit with it, but it has the same connector on the back as the Sunpro gauge so I'm gonna re-use the same tubing/connector.

If you look at the horsepower/torque plot in the yahoo photo section you can see the hp is flat above 2600 rpm so you're not gaining any more power with the higher rpm's, but it's sure nice to have that extra rpm room for certain driving situations (like merging onto the interstate).

I get the filters through the local Cummins dealer in Cedar Rapids. Pretty certain AutoZone won't carry these [laugh]

The manual says to change the oil for the first time at 250 hrs or 3 months. I changed it at ~ 500 mls (2 weeks) and then last weekend at ~5200 mls (~5 months). After the first change I believe the manual says every 500 hrs or 6 months (but I don't have the manual with me so can't say for certain). The oil was just starting to get a little dark at the 5000 ml point and used very little oil (the oil level dropped from the full mark to about 1/2 way between the full point to the low point during the 5000 mls). I'm using Shell Rotella 5w-40 synthetic. With an oil/filter change in takes about 7.8 gallons to get to the full mark.

The manual also recommends checking the valves at250 hrs, although from what I've gathered this is rarely done at this point.

thats good info there. I was under the impression that this thing could only spin to like 2600 and in a car thats not very good. But 3000 is alright. What kind of oil pressure gague and sender do you have on order?
Where do you get oil filters at for your engine, I assume the only place that has them is the Cummins dealer, they are not something you can get at Auto Zone?
How ofton do you change your oil?

Holly cow, I ment 7.8 quarts, not 7.8 gallons for the oil fill! Sorry about that.

That would be amazing if a little engine took over 7 gallons of oil, that rotella stuff is expensive. A person I know uses it in his 2ltr turbo gasoline engine. Don't really know why he does.

I like the top mount intercooler you hooked up, looks like it belongs there. I was thinking of getting some of the silicon hose the tuners use and hooking up a huge front mount intercooler. I wonder what the effects would be on your EGT's if you did that.
Do you have anymore pictures of your jeep you can post. Espically the rear crossmount for the trans/ t-case? Intrested to see what you did there.
-nate-

Morning Nate

I didn't have to modify anything with the transmission mount or the transfer case. In fact I left those in the jeep as I pulled out the gas engine and put in the B3.3T. It would have been easier to mount the engine to the transmission if they were both out but it didn't take too much wiggling to get them to mate.

The comparisons I read on top mount versus front mount intercoolers showed the top mounts usually are extremely close in terms of cooling capacity at velocity, but worse in traffic/slow moving conditions. However the shorter routing of a top mount usually provides less turbo lag. A front mount intercooler would be a bigger benefit if you are doing a lot of slow moving driving (rock crawling for example). I would caution not to go too big and have too long of connection tubing as you'll introduce turbo lag. There's many great guides on the net for properly sizing intercoolers. With my little top mount intercooler and the reverse cowl induction setup I'm running I get lots of air flow through the intercooler at speeds over ~20-25 mph.

Yea, turbo lag sucks. I would be really cool if supercharged diesels were popular. I wonder what those would be like??!! Alot of the tuners in the area run hige front mount intercoolers on little 2L engines. I would say they are 8 inches tall, 22 inches wide and probally 2-3 deep. Do you think an intercooler that big would be to big for the cummins. As the engine being so much bigger than the import tuners, I would run an even bigger intercooler. But when it comes down to it I will only have so much room in front of the radiator.

Have you played with the boost at all. Do you think some more air would lower the EGT's. If you have turned up the fuel what do you think would happan with an extra 2-4 psi of boost?
http://www.bellintercoolers.com/
check out this webiste, if you see something that you think would be best.
To be honest my plan was to just get the biggest one I could fit in the space I have left over after the swap.
I guess if you get a racing intercooler they have much lower pressure loss and have a higher cooling efficency.

any thoughts.......?

Regarding the EGT's and boost: I've run out of injection pump tuning room before I ran out of boost or intercooler capacity with the small top mount intercooler. With the last injection pump tweak I'm seeing about 14.5 psi max boost. If you use the 10 psi per 100 hp rule of thumb then the turbo should support about 140 to 150 hp. The max EGT's I'm seeing are about 1100 deg pre turbo. If I turn up the injection pump any more the rpm's start hanging (see previous posts for description of this issue). I need to get the accelerometer back and remeasure to see where the B3.3T is at, but with the winter fuel it wouldn't be an apples to apples comparison. I'm estimating it's somewhere around 300+ ft-lbs of torque and 120-130 hp (this isn't a whole lot and doesn't require a large intercooler). I don't see any reason/benefit to go with a front mount intercooler for the way I drive. The boost response is near instantneous and the EGT's are well within the safe level. Plus the used intercooler was super cheap. If I was doing a lot of rock crawling then I could see a benefit from the front mount intercooler.

I've been to the bell intercooler site. I was going to order from them before I found my intercooler for sale on ebay.

Yea, turbo lag sucks. I would be really cool if supercharged diesels were popular. I wonder what those would be like??!! Alot of the tuners in the area run hige front mount intercoolers on little 2L engines. I would say they are 8 inches tall, 22 inches wide and probally 2-3 deep. Do you think an intercooler that big would be to big for the cummins. As the engine being so much bigger than the import tuners, I would run an even bigger intercooler. But when it comes down to it I will only have so much room in front of the radiator.

Have you played with the boost at all. Do you think some more air would lower the EGT's. If you have turned up the fuel what do you think would happan with an extra 2-4 psi of boost?
http://www.bellintercoolers.com/
check out this webiste, if you see something that you think would be best.
To be honest my plan was to just get the biggest one I could fit in the space I have left over after the swap.
I guess if you get a racing intercooler they have much lower pressure loss and have a higher cooling efficency.

any thoughts.......?

Got an email back from Cummins regarding the oil pressure. Here's the quote from the first line of the email (then it goes on to quote the nominal and min pressures):

"Oil pressure's on the B3.3 are higher than typical 4B/6B engines. Here's what the data sheet and performance curve says for a Tier 2 B3.3T 85hp @ 2600rpm engine. The max oil pressure spike on a cold engine is 135 psi.
"

With the new 150 psi pressure gauge I'm seeing peaks of ~120-125 psi when driving through the gears on a cold engine. When the engine is hot the pressures are about 45 psi at idle and ~75-80 psi at higher rpm's.

your engine has very high oil pressure. On my jeep engine I might get 60psi cold.
I was looking at the QSB 3.3, what do you think about that engine. I like the common rail injection that it has, its got like 304 ft-lb stock. Alot more than any 4.0 Jeep engine, unless you put on a turbo or blower.
I think with the QSB I could get a custom remap and probally get 200hp and 450 ft-lb? Wow would that be a trip.
Do you know if there is a way to run Aux items off the front pulley drive. Like an add on pulley for the powersteering pump. Thinking of taking the one off my my jeep engine and making a custom bracket and just running a belt to drive it.
let me know what you think?...

As a rough estimate the 5.9 engines can make over 1000 ft-lbs with enough tweaking. Scaling for the same displacement would put the 3.3 over 559 ft-lbs. However, I don't think there's enough aftermarket parts for the 3.3 to make this happen [laugh]

It would be a good idea to consider the limits of your drivetrain as well. On my AX-15 I wouldn't want to go much higher than where I am at. If you had a stronger tranny and axles then . . .

I know there are custom programming options for the QSB version to set various hp/torque curves, but I'm not aware of how high they would take the engine with it's stock injectors, turbo, intercooler.

I discussed the power steering route I would take earlier in the thread. It involved taking an off the shelf SAE hydraulic pump and a pressure regulator and mounting it to the engine and pipe that into the steering box. The standard SAE hydraulic pumps are very reasonably priced. There are lots of bolt holes around the engine so I would imagine something could be fabbed to hold the pump.


your engine has very high oil pressure. On my jeep engine I might get 60psi cold.
I was looking at the QSB 3.3, what do you think about that engine. I like the common rail injection that it has, its got like 304 ft-lb stock. Alot more than any 4.0 Jeep engine, unless you put on a turbo or blower.
I think with the QSB I could get a custom remap and probally get 200hp and 450 ft-lb? Wow would that be a trip.
Do you know if there is a way to run Aux items off the front pulley drive. Like an add on pulley for the powersteering pump. Thinking of taking the one off my my jeep engine and making a custom bracket and just running a belt to drive it.
let me know what you think?...

Very interesting read, just caught up these last 6 pages just now! Great install. I am on my second 4BT into a Land Cruiser. I like the idea of the smaller Cummins and that is an excellent price on a brand new one. 305 ft/lbs BHP powered my wagon with 35" and 4.1 /NV4500 .73 overdrive very well assuming my used engine was still making 305 ft/lbs, 120 hp as it was supposed to. I too became addicted to the power. Some people report similar mileage with their 3.9s but most are mid-high 20s, I personally was about ~22ish, lower over 75-80 mph which is tempting not to do out here on the desert highways. My gearing allowed about 83 mph at ~2250 rpms, my pump was governed very low and it felt like it was screaming even at that low RPMs. I never adjusted higher, but have and plan to on this next 4BT.

Anyway, very enjoyable read. Also for what its worth, my oil pump "broke in" and I started seeing more normal oil pressure numbers after some time, at first I thought maybe something was wrong, I never got about maybe 80 though with dyno oil. I would not be too scared of the oil pressure numbers for such a new engine.

Again congrats on it, I have thoroughly enjoyed your thought process and rationals behind the power and installation techniques and nice to actually see a phoenix castings adapter in a photo, excellent! :)

Andre Shoumatoff
(List owner for 4BT swap yahoo group list)
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/cummins4BT/

Thank you. Nice picture of the Landcruiser at your yahoo group. Thanks for the info on the oil pressure.

I have herd that the 4bts arnt that great in a land cruiser. They have very low red lines and are loud as hell and shake around alot. They must not be that bad if you are proceeding to do another one. I kinda like the 6AT, seems to have a little better manners if you believe what you read, but then again, where can you get parts for them?
TDIwyse: I would like some more knowledge about these SAE hydraulic pumps, they will do the job of a power steering pump. Do you think I could use the power steering pump in my jeep know with a custom bracket?
I just cant find a way to put a second pulley on the engine.

It's been awhile since I looked at the SAE pumps. I don't have the specs in front of me but I'm thinking it was an SAE "A" flange that would fit the PTO. I recall several tractor supply places carried these type of pumps and also had pressure regulators as well. I recall them being very reasonably priced but no firm numbers are coming to mind.

If you make a bracket for the original power steering pump then you might need to alter the belt routing (and get a longer belt) so it snakes around a bit otherwise you may not have enough surface area of the belt on all the pulleys to keep it from slipping and destroying itself rapidly.

this is all very confusing to me... There is a PTO on the front of the engine? Can you describe it, ill check in the pics you posted to see if I can get a look at it.

I would expect cummins to make things that would allow their engine to be easily adapted to many confugurations....like extra pulleys and stuff... let me know when you have more info on this.

why didnt you use a "A-SERIES" cummins engine.
instead of the b3.3

yours was a non-turbo?? did it have enough power??

reason i ask this is torque on the diesel engine go up to 135 ft. lbs at 1600 rpm for the "A-series" higher if b.3.3 used. the old gas engine v6 produced
150 ft lbs at 4500 rpm. so if i "crunched/compared" numbers the diesel is considerable higher in torque but less in hp or "brits" = bhp.

toqrue is more inportant in getting a vehicle moving right?? and hp more important towards higher rpms?

any info would be appreciated!!
[duhhh] :confused: :o

why didnt you use a "A-SERIES" cummins engine.
instead of the b3.3

yours was a non-turbo?? did it have enough power??

reason i ask this is torque on the diesel engine go up to 135 ft. lbs at 1600 rpm for the "A-series" higher if b.3.3 used. the old gas engine v6 produced
150 ft lbs at 4500 rpm. so if i "crunched/compared" numbers the diesel is considerable higher in torque but less in hp or "brits" = bhp.

toqrue is more inportant in getting a vehicle moving right?? and hp more important towards higher rpms?

any info would be appreciated!!

[duhhh] [dummy] :o

TDIwyse
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Iowa
Posts: 137


B3.3T Jeep YJ

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thought some of you might get a kick out of my re-power project. It started with a 1990 YJ Jeep with a 4.2L inline 6 carb motor, AX-15 5spd tranny and 3.07 axles. The tranny and axles are important for adapter availability and rpm’s (with the 30 inch tires on the jeep I’m turning 1600 rpms , torque peak, at 59 mph).

I’ve wanted to do this type of project for quite some time. After many months of researching I came to the conclusion I wanted to use the Cummins B3.3T for the engine. This was due to its simplicity (all mechanical), relatively light weight (~560 lbs with starter, intake and exhaust manifolds, etc.), physical dimensions (it’s much shorter then the 3.9), local service/parts (the Cummins dealership in Cedar Rapids is first rate), cost ($3780 for everything including intake grid heater cold start option), good torque (215 lb-ft @ 1600). The trick was finding a way to convert the SAE bellhousing into something that would work with an automotive transmission . . . There’s a company called Phoenix Castings (http://www.phxgrp.com/transmission.htm) which makes just the item!

After talking with the old engineer there I decided to go with the SAE4 to GM small block adapter set, and then used an Advanced Adapters AX-15 to GM full bell housing kit. The pictures in this photo gallery will help visualize what these adapters look like and how they interface: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/tdiwys...?.dir=/ce56scd

I wanted to avoid doing any body lifts so I ended up having to cut some clearance areas into the hood. I then used a hood scoop to cover up the holes. If a person did a 1-2 inch body lift there would be no need to cut the hood.

So far I’m extremely happy with the result. It’s been 1.5 months since I started driving it. Have ~1300 miles on it and its running great. Getting 30-32 mpg on mixed driving. It has no problems going 75 mph on the interstate (although it’s loud – the aerodynamics are horrible). The acceleration is adequate (although some of the power monsters on here would certainly call it inadequate). There is lots of tweaking that could be done to increase the performance (all the injection pump settings are easily accessible and adding an intercooler could easily be done). This project still has lots of possibilities in the next few years

Hope you all enjoy the pictures.
__________________
2004 Cummins 4x4 Quad Cab SWB
2001 VW Jetta TDI
1990 YJ Jeep RePowered with 2006 B3.3T
which engine to use??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

why didnt you use a "A-SERIES" cummins engine.
instead of the b3.3

yours was a non-turbo?? did it have enough power??

reason i ask this is torque on the diesel engine go up to 135 ft. lbs at 1600 rpm for the "A-series" higher if b.3.3 used. the old gas engine v6 produced
150 ft lbs at 4500 rpm. so if i "crunched/compared" numbers the diesel is considerable higher in torque but less in hp or "brits" = bhp.

toqrue is more inportant in getting a vehicle moving right?? and hp more important towards higher rpms?

any info would be appreciated!!

Sorry, it's been awhile since I've checked the forums.

Mine was the B3.3T, which means it was the turbo version. 85 hp and 215 ft-lbs stock. As I said previously the stock engine was "adequate". I could do interstate speeds (70 mph) with no problems. Since adding the intercooler and turning up the fuel it is much more than adequate. I've redone some more G-force measurements with the accelerometer and on winter fuel I'm in the lower 300 ft-lbs and mid 120's for hp. EGT's are maxing out at ~1150 F.

I liked the B3.3T due to its reliablility (according to Cummins the B3.3 series has the lowest problems of any of their engine lines), all mechanical, excellent fuel economy, relatively light weight, and lots of low end torque.

It's also been doing very well with the extreme cold weather we are experiencing. -15F this morning. The fuel economy in this extremely cold, windy conditions has degraded to ~26-27 mpg for my back and forth to work trips. The trips are about 15 mls one way and even with cardboard covering the radiator it takes about half the trip to get to operating temps.

Oh, I'm approaching 9000 mls on the conversion and so far so good. No engine/transmission issues to report and the stock front axles/steering components seem to be holding up well.

why didnt you use a "A-SERIES" cummins engine.
instead of the b3.3

yours was a non-turbo?? did it have enough power??

reason i ask this is torque on the diesel engine go up to 135 ft. lbs at 1600 rpm for the "A-series" higher if b.3.3 used. the old gas engine v6 produced
150 ft lbs at 4500 rpm. so if i "crunched/compared" numbers the diesel is considerable higher in torque but less in hp or "brits" = bhp.

toqrue is more inportant in getting a vehicle moving right?? and hp more important towards higher rpms?

any info would be appreciated!!

[duhhh] [dummy] :o

iwouldn't mind doing something like this with my '79 cj5

Awesome read! There is hope for the Jeep owners and you have shown the way!

Hutch

Awesome read! There is hope for the Jeep owners and you have shown the way!

Hutch

Thanks. I've been experimenting with vortex generators based upon Mitsubishi's work with the Evo Lancer. They were able to improve the Cd of an already streamlined sedan by ~2%. Not much improvement, but it was already streamlined to begin with.

(http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2004/16E_03.pdf)

The jeep has a "bluff body" shape at the rear and should benefit much more from this type of scheme than a sedan body shape. Did some roll down testing this past weekend with and without the VG's on the back of the jeep. At 70 mph I'm measuring about a 5-8% reduction in drag with the VG's on the jeep. At 50 mph I couldn't measure a statistically significant improvement in drag.

I've also convinced myself that during cold weather (~40 F and below) I get better fuel economy if I block off the intercooler. This is based on lots of tanks of fuel with and without the intercooler blocked off. It seems this mechanical engine has better thermal efficiency (as measured by fuel economy) at part load conditions with intake air temps above freezing. This seems to contradict what one would expect from a Carnot cycle, but the data sure shows it.

Thanks. I've been experimenting with vortex generators based upon Mitsubishi's work with the Evo Lancer. They were able to improve the Cd of an already streamlined sedan by ~2%. Not much improvement, but it was already streamlined to begin with.

(http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2004/16E_03.pdf)

The jeep has a "bluff body" shape at the rear and should benefit much more from this type of scheme than a sedan body shape. Did some roll down testing this past weekend with and without the VG's on the back of the jeep. At 70 mph I'm measuring about a 5-8% reduction in drag with the VG's on the jeep. At 50 mph I couldn't measure a statistically significant improvement in drag.

I've also convinced myself that during cold weather (~40 F and below) I get better fuel economy if I block off the intercooler. This is based on lots of tanks of fuel with and without the intercooler blocked off. It seems this mechanical engine has better thermal efficiency (as measured by fuel economy) at part load conditions with intake air temps above freezing. This seems to contradict what one would expect from a Carnot cycle, but the data sure shows it.

I have been thinking of getting those Airtabs for my cargo trailer... SO you are seeing a pretty decent Benefit!! 5-8% is a good decrease in wind drag! Post some pictures so we can see where you placed them... did you paint them to match or did you just stickem on there? Did you make them or did you purchase the tabs?

Oilguy

I had looked at the Airtabs as well. Didn't want to shell out that much money at this time. Plus, part of the fun of this project has been the experimentation.

I ended up using black (matches the hard top), plastic garden stakes I found at Lowes and cut them to the approximate shape of the Mitsubishi tabs (I wanted to use plastic in case they came off while driving and wouldn't puncture someone's tires). The stakes look like a "T" when viewing then straight on. I used the flat portion of the "T" to adhere to the Jeep's hardtop with 3M outdoor double sided sticky tape. They are along the very rear portion of the top and sides of the jeep.

The jeep YJ with a hardtop has a published Coefficient of drag of Cd=0.58. This is horrible, and with something this bad it makes sense there should be some room for improvement.

I should update the photo gallery sometime. I'll try to get that done this week.

Updated the photo gallery linked in the first post of this thread. It has the updated hp/torque curves, pictures of the final hood scoop and intercooler gasketing (forces the air through the intercooler), pictures of the front/rear mounts on the passenger side (hard to get good shots of those, the ones on the driver sides are similar), and the vortex generators as presently implemented.

Sorry, it's been awhile since I've checked the forums.

Mine was the B3.3T, which means it was the turbo version. 85 hp and 215 ft-lbs stock. As I said previously the stock engine was "adequate". I could do interstate speeds (70 mph) with no problems. Since adding the intercooler and turning up the fuel it is much more than adequate. I've redone some more G-force measurements with the accelerometer and on winter fuel I'm in the lower 300 ft-lbs and mid 120's for hp. EGT's are maxing out at ~1150 F.

I liked the B3.3T due to its reliablility (according to Cummins the B3.3 series has the lowest problems of any of their engine lines), all mechanical, excellent fuel economy, relatively light weight, and lots of low end torque.

It's also been doing very well with the extreme cold weather we are experiencing. -15F this morning. The fuel economy in this extremely cold, windy conditions has degraded to ~26-27 mpg for my back and forth to work trips. The trips are about 15 mls one way and even with cardboard covering the radiator it takes about half the trip to get to operating temps.

Oh, I'm approaching 9000 mls on the conversion and so far so good. No engine/transmission issues to report and the stock front axles/steering components seem to be holding up well.

NO problem info was great whats the difference between sae3 and sae4 drive on the back of the engine??

whu cant i bolt my old fly wheel directly to crank? with addapter plate bolted directly to engine block.

by the way i am going to try this in a 91 toyota that has a 4 inch lift kit and a v6 engine with extracab.

but only and main concern is finding a engine "short" enough.
fire wall to radiator is 30 inchs. so if engine is 27 inchs then there is 3 inchs for a electric fan.

so if you know the distance from front edge of the crank pully at front of engine to rear crank end and to rear of head and block ?? it would give me a better idea of howand what to pick to use.

thanks for previous info was very helpfull!!!1[coffee] [guitar] [director] :o

So that is all you need to do to make a VG?
http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/users/44e1bbdbzd6082af6/ce56scd/__sr_/86c8scd.jpg?phI6VBGBuBVIvgpy

That seem really simple... Where did you get the idea to use those? I liked the Air tabs looks but they are $2.50 each and those look like they cost about a nickel each...

If you look at picture "DSC00388" in the photo album you will see what the SAE rear end looks like. I suppose you could drill holls in your flywheel to bolt up to the rear of the engine but this will affect your clutch surface/flywheel interface. You have to make sure the distance between your trans and the flywheel are appropriate to ensure the clutch will engage the flywheel, the transmission shaft will engage some type of pilot bearing in the center of the flywheel, etc.

The SAE3 and 4 are two different sizes.

If you go to the cummins websight you will find this info, some of which has the dimensions you are looking for.

http://www.everytime.cummins.com/every/pdf/4087026.pdf
http://www.everytime.cummins.com/every/misc/brochures.jsp#Agriculture
http://www.everytime.cummins.com/every/applications/b33_ag.jsp


NO problem info was great whats the difference between sae3 and sae4 drive on the back of the engine??

whu cant i bolt my old fly wheel directly to crank? with addapter plate bolted directly to engine block.

by the way i am going to try this in a 91 toyota that has a 4 inch lift kit and a v6 engine with extracab.

but only and main concern is finding a engine "short" enough.
fire wall to radiator is 30 inchs. so if engine is 27 inchs then there is 3 inchs for a electric fan.

so if you know the distance from front edge of the crank pully at front of engine to rear crank end and to rear of head and block ?? it would give me a better idea of howand what to pick to use.

thanks for previous info was very helpfull!!!1[coffee] [guitar] [director] :o

My work computer is blocking your link so I can't see what you are pointing to.

Your estimate of a nickel each is about right [laugh]

So that is all you need to do to make a VG?
http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/users/44e1bbdbzd6082af6/ce56scd/__sr_/86c8scd.jpg?phI6VBGBuBVIvgpy

That seem really simple... Where did you get the idea to use those? I liked the Air tabs looks but they are $2.50 each and those look like they cost about a nickel each...

My work computer is blocking your link so I can't see what you are pointing to.

Your estimate of a nickel each is about right [laugh]

It was just a reference picture to your gallery.
OG

A guy at work turned me onto your project (Thanks Joe!).

I'm almost to year 9 in my 2.5L TJ Wrangler. That's ~3000 times that I've been reminded that it is slow. I get ~15-18mpg and have a tough time on the freeway unless I shift a lot, so I've been contemplating something like this for a while. I learned that the 4BT (bread truck mill) is pretty loud and heavy, and makes for an expensive swap once you have the whole driveline done.

The 3.3 looks perfect. Not only that, I have a small chance that I can get a killer deal on a B3.3T. I'm going to start looking for a 97-05 4.0 Wrangler with a dead engine. Your project looks very well done and you've contemplated the important engine characteristics thoroughly instead of just throwing something in and cranking up the fuel. I hope you have given yourself a big pat on the back for going through the growing pains first on this particular swap.

A few questions for you (you seem awfully patient and helpful):
-What are the big things you would do differently?
-If you had a front mount intercooler for free, would you still use it (and the possible additional lag)?
-Is your engine free from any computer control? If not, have you discussed computer tuning options with a Cummins tech? (The one I might be able to get may have an electronic "throttle")
-Did you just hook up a cable to the factory pedal?
-Can you tell me (ballpark) what you paid for the bellhousing and adapter plate?
-What did you do for the clutch setup?
-Did you have any trouble with vertical alignment to the stock mounted tranny?
-Can you briefly describe your exhaust system? Did you remove the cat, use a stock muffler, etc.
-Any sign that you will see transmission or axle failures in the future?

Feel free to comment on my thoughts:
-At first I thought I would want the 6 speed manual, but the AX-15 actually has a higher ratio in 5th gear than the 6spd does in 6th. Either would be appropriate.
-I'd like to run a microcontroller to monitor the temps and vitals. This would display on a weatherproof readout via CAN. I could perhaps incorporate other functions such as cooldown timer, warmup mode, pushbutton start, etc. This does introduce a potential failure mode into the system.
-I'd aim for ~32" tires. This makes lifts modest and may help out the top end speed. I wonder what effect it would have on fuel efficiency. I'd be curious to see BSFC numbers for 75 mph at different revs/tire sizes.


Thanks in advance for any thoughts from you and other forum members. I studied engines for 2 years in college and know how many variables are at play to gain good performance and reliability. Each of your little changes can have a profound effect on the others. People don't realize how much tuning goes into a production vehicle. Let's just say that I have lots of respect for the work you've done so far.

Thank you very much. My background isn’t in any type of mechanical training (my undergrad, grad and professional work is in RF and millimeter wave integrated circuit design) so this was kind of a big step for me.

---------------------
A few questions for you (you seem awfully patient and helpful):
-What are the big things you would do differently?
---------------------

The GM flywheel needed for the Phoenix adapter is the newer style which has a slight balancing weight internal to the flywheel (my understanding is this is done so the engine’s didn’t have to include the balancing). In hindsight I should have ground this off so the flywheel was balanced, but I was hedging my bets so if the swap didn’t work I wanted to be able to sell as much of my parts as possible. Also, the flywheel has a toothed starter ring on the outside to engage an automotive starter. The B3.3T has the starter integral to the engine so this ring isn’t needed and could be removed.

I underestimated the amount of travel the front axle would experience on my first go around with setting the height of the engine. I got a slight dent in my oil pan when I hit my first big bump. I then raised the engine a bit, put on the slightly longer, heavy duty shackles ( 1 inch longer for 0.5 in more clearance), and lengthened my bump stops on the front.

---------------------
-If you had a front mount intercooler for free, would you still use it (and the possible additional lag)?
---------------------

Free is a good price. I would give it a go. Doubt you will introduce much additional lag if it’s not too big, but I am no expert in this area.

---------------------
-Is your engine free from any computer control? If not, have you discussed computer tuning options with a Cummins tech? (The one I might be able to get may have an electronic "throttle")
---------------------

No computer what so ever. It needs a signal for the fuel shut off solenoid so the injection pump can get fuel. The starter needs the crank signal and a 12V to crank the engine and get it going (I’m using the same cables for the starter solenoid and battery connections, but needed to add some length to reach).

Are you sure the one you are looking at is the B3.3T and not the QSB3.3? The QSB is the new common rail version which has electronics on it. It also has an intercooler already (think it is air to water).

I have a lot of unused electrical connections under the hood. My “check engine” light is on constantly. I covered it up with black electrical tape.

---------------------
-Did you just hook up a cable to the factory pedal?
---------------------

Yes. Turns out the accelerator cable from the factor pedal was exactly the right length to connect to the B3.3T’s fuel pump. I remember discovering this and laughing out loud. If you have the 4 cylinder gas engine it might be different than the 4.2 inline six.

---------------------
-Can you tell me (ballpark) what you paid for the bellhousing and adapter plate?
---------------------

Have the receipts at home. Was thinking the phoenix casting adapters were ~$190. The Advanced Adapters AX-15 to GM full bellhousing kit should be easy to find on the net.

---------------------
-What did you do for the clutch setup?
---------------------

The Advanced Adapters instructions cover what’s needed. Mine was a bit more complicated as the 1990 AX-15 had the internal clutch release mechanism. This caused some headaches when trying to connect the factor clutch line to the new external Toyota cylinder that AA calls for. Had to go to a specialty hose place (Custom Hose) to get some brake line with the right adapters to mate these things together.

---------------------
-Did you have any trouble with vertical alignment to the stock mounted tranny?
---------------------

No.

---------------------
-Can you briefly describe your exhaust system? Did you remove the cat, use a stock muffler, etc.
---------------------

3 inch straight pipe. Went to Professional Muffler and had them do a custom exhaust. It cost ~$150. You do need a special Cummins turbo exhaust ring thingy (sorry for the non technical name) to go from the turbo outlet to an exhaust system. It’s the same part that’s used on the 4BT’s and 6BT’s. I have the specific name and part number at home in my folder but can’t remember it now.

---------------------
-Any sign that you will see transmission or axle failures in the future?
---------------------

The tranny has 120k on it right now. It was used as a snow plow vehicle for several years at an auto dealership before I got it (it came with a fully hydraulic operated plow). The previous owner that bought it from the auto dealership didn’t use the plow that much. I got the plow (sold it to a friend) when I bought the jeep and it is one heavy pig. Took three big guys to load it into my ¾ ton Ram. That’s a lot of weight on the front axles.

Anyway, the synchros in 1st and 2nd seem worn pretty good. When it’s cold it’s a bit difficult to get into 1st and second if your rpm’s are very high. Other than that the tranny and axles seem to be doing well and haven’t gotten worse for the last 9000 mls that the Cummins has been in it.

---------------------
Feel free to comment on my thoughts:
-At first I thought I would want the 6 speed manual, but the AX-15 actually has a higher ratio in 5th gear than the 6spd does in 6th. Either would be appropriate.
---------------------

I used what was in the vehicle to save $. The gear ratios are more than adequate for my needs. A six speed would be nice though.

---------------------
-I'd like to run a microcontroller to monitor the temps and vitals. This would display on a weatherproof readout via CAN. I could perhaps incorporate other functions such as cooldown timer, warmup mode, pushbutton start, etc. This does introduce a potential failure mode into the system.
---------------------

Sounds cool. You will need to add your own sensors to the B3.3T to get this info. The QSB3.3 would have this info available to you via its computer.

---------------------
-I'd aim for ~32" tires. This makes lifts modest and may help out the top end speed. I wonder what effect it would have on fuel efficiency. I'd be curious to see BSFC numbers for 75 mph at different revs/tire sizes.
---------------------

The only BSFC #’s I could find were for 1600rpm and 2600 rpm and I posted those in the thread. If you assume a linear slope between these points you could get an estimate for what it’s doing for any given rpm at max fueling.

I made a spreadsheet which takes the published coefficient of drag (Cd is 0.56 for the hard top YJ I believe) and frontal area for a jeep and calculates the hp needed to overcome wind resistance as a function of speed. It’s ugly. At 55 a stock jeep needs about 20 hp for wind resistance. At 70 it needs 40hp. At 70 into a 30 mph wind (100mph) it needs 118 hp. If you add bigger wheels and raise your vehicle you are just going to need more power.

I've done some stuff to improve my Cd as of late. The vortex generators I talked about already, but I've also just made my own front ground skirt to reduce turbulence for the air going under the jeep. Also made some skirts to block the huge gaps between the bumper and the wheel wells which would seem to catch the air. I'm hoping to improve my mpg's this summer to the mid 30's instead of the lower 30's.

---------------------
Thanks in advance for any thoughts from you and other forum members. I studied engines for 2 years in college and know how many variables are at play to gain good performance and reliability. Each of your little changes can have a profound effect on the others. People don't realize how much tuning goes into a production vehicle. Let's just say that I have lots of respect for the work you've done so far.
---------------------

I'm toying with the idea of getting 4 new injector nozzles and having the holes modified a bit (this way I could go back to the stock nozzles if I don't like the modified ones). My EGT's and boost seem to indicate that I have enough air to support about 5-10% more fuel (assuming a linear relationship between EGT's and fuel which may not be correct). I'm thinking that this would allow me to flow a bit more fuel without introducing the rpm hanging issue I get if I turn the fuel pump up anymore. Any thoughts on this?

We usually make fun of EEs and say that they can't change a tire unless there is a button on it, so you are above the curve. I'm pretty sure the EE's have some equally kind things to say about MEs. Interestingly enough, you've solved the mechanical hurdles, while I will have mostly electrical/software hurdles if I get the engine I'm looking at.

I took a look at the machine with the engine I'm interested in. I am sure now that it must be the QSB3.3, as there are electronic injectors and a huge ECU. This is good and bad; good that it can be configure electronically and that all of the vitals will be available over CAN, bad that the simplicity of yours is not an option. In the end I think it could be nice because it could mitigate cold start issues and smoking. The intercooler on the machine looks fairly large, but it just might fit in the (rather large) gap in between the Jeep grill and radiator.

I wondered how you solved transmission alignment issues as you moved the engine up and down for fit. Regarding oil pan clearance: I would have to compare the TJ travel to that of a YJ but I'm guessing it will be an issue, especially if I ever disconnect the sway bar. I'm thinking that it might work to fabricate a recess into the oil pan for clearance. That's one of the things I can't really design well until I have the parts in front of me. I will have to take it on faith that the problem can be solved. I need to take a critical look at the YJ vs. TJ suspension.

I looked up the AA bellhousing. Not cheap, but surely better than fabricating something.

Does Cummins offer an engine heater for parking on cold nights? Perhaps that would help the high oil pressure on startup. A cartridge heater might work to heat the oil in the pan.

When I get some time I will dig back through my old textbooks. I think you may be able to calculate a theoretical EGT with detailed knowledge of engine dimensions and input parameters (air pressure, temp, etc.). I'm not making any promises, but if I can find out how I will be happy to make a spreadsheet for you. I did most of that kind of analysis in college with rather expensive software that made it easy (I know longer have access to it). Anyway, if you think you have excess air you should in theory get more power with more fuel, and if you think your pump can squirt more through bigger nozzles it's worth a try. Wouldn't it be nice to have a dyno for all of this speculation? I'm certainly no expert, but I get the feeling that the turbo will fail from high EGTs before you grenade the engine (not that a turbo is cheap to replace).

Let's not start an EE/ME war [laugh]

The common rail version should be better for cold starts, but you will probably still want the intake grid heater. My 04 5.9 Cummins with the common rail still uses a grid heater for cold starts.

I'm not sure if they offer some kind of engine block heater or not. I don't recall seeing that option. I'm really not bothered anymore about the oil pressure as the engine was designed to handle it. After thinking about it wouldn't the higher oil pressure get the internal parts lubricated faster at startup than if the pressure was lower? Pretty sure fluid flow through a given orifice is somewhat proportional to pressure.

The AA kit includes more than just the bellhousing. Lots of pieces in there . . .

An engine theory question for you. What are your thoughts on my observation about blocking off the intercooler during cold weather and the observable increase in mpg? Doesn't this seem to contradict the Carnot Cycle? Or is it possible that some second order effects are causing this (incomplete combustion due to too low of temperatures ?)? I have a hard time trying to control variables since environmental conditions change so radically from tank to tank (wind, temp, snow, slush, rain, etc.).

Don’t think I’ll need to modify my injectors after all.

Been reading through the Bosch “Diesel Distributor Fuel-Injection Pumps” technical instruction manual for the VE pumps. I never fully appreciated the complexity and beauty of these little pumps. Fascinating. Anyway, in the chapter titled “Add-on modules and shutoff devices” there’s a section called “Torque control”. In this section it describes different ways the fuel pumps fueling characteristics are modified to tailor a fuel curve. The method my fuel pump uses to do this appears to be “positive torque control”.

The positive control refers to the pump being setup to deliver enough fuel at low rpm’s to achieve maximum torque and needing to reduce fuel at higher rpm’s to prevent “the engine being unable to completely combust the excess fuel injected at higher speeds and smoke would be the result together with engine overheat.”

MMMWWAAHHHAAHHAAHHAAA!

More specifically, it appears it is using “positive torque control using the governor lever assembly” and “The decisive engine speed for start of torque control is set by preloading the torque-control springs.” Last night I figured out which screw sets this preload and adjusted the spring tension by advancing the set screw ¼ turn. I need to borrow the accelerometer again, but I’m definitely getting better performance in the 2000-3000 rpm range. My boost numbers are also higher in this range (they’re now about 15 psi where before they were between 14 and 14.5 psi). EGT’s were very low but it was more likely due to not holding full fueling conditions very long.

Flow through an orifice is not a linear relationship to pressure, if I remember correctly. I think it is proportional to the square root of pressure. Compressible flow is even different as it will max out at the speed of sound.
Here's a good derivation of flow rate from the Bernoulli equation:
http://www.pipeflowcalculations.com/orifice/theory.htm

Anyway, it’s better if you don’t have to change injectors. That's a neat design of that Bosch pump. You have to be impressed at how far diesels came on mechanical pumps. I'd like to see it torn down with an explanation of the low-speed torque control. The amount injected per cycle must be based on pedal position and speed, instead of just pedal position.

I'm very curious to see what tuning is available if I can get a common rail Cummins. I know that their emissions, cold starting, and sound control strategy is centered around creative injection schemes.

I don't have an answer yet to your engine theory question, where you see higher MPGs when blocking off the intercooler during cold weather. I'll have to dig out the schoolbooks![yuk] Perhaps Dr. Kittelson will have time for a question from an old forgetful student. He knows pretty much everything about diesel theory, as far as I can tell.

Off the top of my head, I would say that it doesn't make sense. The Carnot efficiency increases as the temperature extremes grow further apart: E = (T1-T2)/T1. Of course, a diesel engine does not run on a perfect Carnot cycle, which assumes reversible and adiabatic processes. Have you monitored engine temp? Are the reduced MPGs happening only when the engine is below optimum operating temp? I guess that might explain some incomplete combustion, but I don’t know enough about diesels to say whether or not that is likely in an already lean mixture. The warmer inlet air (with a blocked intercooler) should be less dense and lead to a lower operating pressure, and I would think that may actually take longer to warm up the engine. Your experiences don’t seem to reflect that. As background research I would stick thermocouples on the inlet and outlet of the intercooler and record that with MPG and whether it is blocked or not. Do you notice a significant difference in EGT when you block the intercooler?

I will consult my books this weekend to see if I just said anything completely wrong.

Thanks for the feedback and the link.

I thought with the electronic interface on the common rail version that the whole fuel curve can be tailored for each engine. How much tailoring (above the 110hp 305 ft-lbs max for the stock engine) you can do I'm not sure. Since they are maxing out the rail at 16,000 psi (which is quite low compared to most common rail designs) it would seem like increasing pressure would be an easy place to start (maybe fooling the pressure sensor if the electronic interface won't let it go above a measured 16,000 psi). Seems like there's a lot more room to grow with that engine since it's already starting with some pretty nice torque numbers.

Regarding the intercooler and engine efficiency at low to mid fueling conditions: After reading how the mechanical pumps try to adjust injection timing for various conditions I'm wondering if it's just a limitation of the injection pump not being able to advance the timing enough in cold conditions? By keeping the intake air warmer in the winter by blocking the intercooler the increased efficiency due to a better optimized start of injection may be more important than the cooler intake air?

I suppose you could drill holls in your flywheel to bolt up to the rear of the engine but this will affect your clutch surface/flywheel interface. You have to make sure the distance between your trans and the flywheel are appropriate to ensure the clutch will engage the flywheel, the transmission shaft will engage some type of pilot bearing in the center of the flywheel, etc.




yes i had planed on addressing clutch and input shaft depth concerns.

thanks for all great info!![guitar] [roll]

Well, I was incorrect about the governor. Turns out the increase in boost was due to the switch from winter to summer fuel and not doing anything to the governor. After reading ALL of the Bosch manual I realized all I was doing was adjusting the mechanical shutoff device. What a newbie mistake.

I've been reading the first gen archives and seeing what they have done to their VE pumps with the 3200 rpm governor spring seems to be what I would need to do to the VE pump on this engine. The tag on my pump has the following description: NP-VE 4/11F1300RNP2489.

From what I've read this refers to a 1300 rpm governor (2600 engine rpm) governor spring. This must be why the engine hp stops increasing at ~2600 rpm even though I increased the max rpm screw setting. Seems the 1st gen guys discovered this a long time ago . . .

May have to spend some more time in the 1st gen forums.

TDIwyse -
I will eventually get around to some more of your engine theory questions.

You stated that you feel that your B3.3T lets you do anything that your 4.0 did before. You are then entirely satisfied with your Jeep's ability to merge into traffic and maintain highway speeds?

I am certain that the engine (either the B3.3T or the QSB3.3) is the one for me, as I have been driving the 2.5L Wrangler since '98. I think that it has sufficient in-town performance but suffers on the freeway with hills and headwinds. I attribute this to poor torque and low revs. Basically the 2.5 and QSB3.3 have similar power ratings, but the 2.5 must spin near 5000rpm to achieve it. I don't have a curve for the QSB3.3, but if it is anything like yours, it makes good power at ~2000 and great torque at ~1500.

In looking for a worthy recipient I'm considering the '04-06 Unlimited Wranglers. I think that once I can get good highway mileage I might like to take it out of town, and in that case the extra wheelbase will be nice on the freeway. I also want to run 31-32" tires. I'm afraid that if I get too carried away I will have a vehicle too heavy for peppy driving with the diesel.

The stock 2.5 with a softop is around 3400 lbs with an operator, giving me about 28 lbs per hp. I figure my tires and hardtop add 200 more. The unlimited would add another 200, and the engine would add another. I'm looking at 4000 pounds going down the road, giving about 36 lb per hp (assuming the stock 110hp Cummins). Compare this with the Viper and Z06 (around 7 lb per hp) or a Ford F250 crewcab diesel (around 21 lb per hp). Theoretically then it would be considerably slower than an empty diesel 3/4ton. Of course this doesn't consider axle ratios, rpms, etc.

On a qualitative basis, how do you feel your Jeep performs relative to other vehicles? I have driven all 3 diesel pickups and would be entirely satisfied with matching that performance.

here is some links to cumins i found concerning B3.3 and QSB3.3.
the QSB series usually is in the "stage 3 tier 3" under construction or agriculture if you look under applications. there is some curve charts
there too.
there also seems to be a difference which site you look at for cummins;
this is the main site:

http://www.everytime.cummins.com/every/everytime.jsp

other sights southern plains i found more info:

http://www.cummins-sp.com/engines/index.htm



here is a link to QSB3.3 power curves and other info

http://www.everytime.cummins.com/every/pdf/4087118.pdf

May have to spend some more time in the 1st gen forums.

Yes there is lots of good info in the 1st gen forums to get that ve pump putting out more fuel. You should be able to get enough fueling with just some turning of screws that you'll need more air.

BEST YET

http://www.everytime.cummins.com/every/pdf/4087038.pdf


BY THE WAY I WAS TALKING TO THE SOUTHERN PLAINS LOCAL REP.
AND THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SHIP OUT OF THE AREA BUT HE DID HELP ME FIND A LOCAL REP. [duhhh] [dummy] [director]

HOPE SOME OF THIS WAS HELP FULL :cool: :o [director]

My question is about getting it registered for use on the street. How did you go about that if the vehicle didnt come with a diesel engine to begin with? Did you re-title it?

My jeep had the 4.2 carb motor, not the 4.0 fuel injected motor. The 4.2 was something like 210 ft-lbs and 112 hp. The B3.3T stock "felt" a little peppier than the 4.2. After intercooling and turning up the fuel the B3.3T is much peppier. I weighed my jeep on a couple different scales (local dump, rock quarry) and with a full tank of fuel, me (190 lbs), hard top and 30 inch all terrain tires it comes to ~3850 lbs.

My 04 Cummins with me weighs about 7850 lbs with 305 hp which is ~ 25.57 lbs/hp. My Jetta is ~3300 with 90 hp which is ~ 36.11 lbs/hp. The jeep is 3850 lbs with ~125 hp which is ~30.8 lbs/hp. So the Jeep is in between the VW and the Cummins in terms of hp. Now let's look at torque.

04 Cummins (555): 14.14 lbs/ft-lbs
Jetta TDI (155): 21.3 lbs/ft-lbs.
Jeep (~320): 12 lbs/ft-lbs.

So the Jeep actually has more torque relative to weight than my other vehicles. Around town the jeep feels faster than the VW and Cummins (mainly because the 6 spd in the Cummins can't be shifted very fast). Passing on the interstate I would say the Cummins feels faster than jeep. At 55 the jeep feels faster than the VW, and 70 the jeep feels about the same as the VW (which I think is due to the horrible wind resistance of the jeep).

I'm completely satisfied with the performance as it stands. The only occassion where I needed all the hp the engine could give (EDIT: all the hp the engine could give in OD to maintain speed, not max hp the engine is capable of -- which whould be higher if I would've down shifted into 4th gear) was once this winter cruising home from work in ~10 F weather, into a 30-35 mph sustained headwind on the interstate going 70 up a hill. I was turning about 2000 rpm's in OD and had it floored and the EGT's never got above 1150 F. My previous calculations of how much hp you need to do 70 into a 30 mph wind (100 mph) shows that I needed well north of 130 hp (when considering wind + rolling resistance + going up a slight incline) -- and it was giving this power at 2000 rpm. You can calculate what the torque would need to be for this and it's more than what my accelerometer runs show (I'm assuming this is because the interstate experience is more like a loaded dyno run where as the accelerometer runs are un-loaded and the engine accelerates so easily it doesn't get loaded down properly).

However, since I still have a little more air than can I presently use (1150 F max EGT's and less boost than the waste gate limit, and if I turn up the max fuel screw much more the rpm's start hanging which in the 1st Gen forums they call getting close to a "run away situation" which is bad news) I am searching for a relatively easy and cheap way to get some extra hp at the higher end of the rpm band. If it's not cheap and easy I'll just stick with what I got . . . I think . . . However I tend to wake up at night thinking about different things to tweak.


TDIwyse -
I will eventually get around to some more of your engine theory questions.

You stated that you feel that your B3.3T lets you do anything that your 4.0 did before. You are then entirely satisfied with your Jeep's ability to merge into traffic and maintain highway speeds?

I am certain that the engine (either the B3.3T or the QSB3.3) is the one for me, as I have been driving the 2.5L Wrangler since '98. I think that it has sufficient in-town performance but suffers on the freeway with hills and headwinds. I attribute this to poor torque and low revs. Basically the 2.5 and QSB3.3 have similar power ratings, but the 2.5 must spin near 5000rpm to achieve it. I don't have a curve for the QSB3.3, but if it is anything like yours, it makes good power at ~2000 and great torque at ~1500.

In looking for a worthy recipient I'm considering the '04-06 Unlimited Wranglers. I think that once I can get good highway mileage I might like to take it out of town, and in that case the extra wheelbase will be nice on the freeway. I also want to run 31-32" tires. I'm afraid that if I get too carried away I will have a vehicle too heavy for peppy driving with the diesel.

The stock 2.5 with a softop is around 3400 lbs with an operator, giving me about 28 lbs per hp. I figure my tires and hardtop add 200 more. The unlimited would add another 200, and the engine would add another. I'm looking at 4000 pounds going down the road, giving about 36 lb per hp (assuming the stock 110hp Cummins). Compare this with the Viper and Z06 (around 7 lb per hp) or a Ford F250 crewcab diesel (around 21 lb per hp). Theoretically then it would be considerably slower than an empty diesel 3/4ton. Of course this doesn't consider axle ratios, rpms, etc.

On a qualitative basis, how do you feel your Jeep performs relative to other vehicles? I have driven all 3 diesel pickups and would be entirely satisfied with matching that performance.

Excellent question. My jeep is registered as having a gas motor. It was true when I registered it. I don't know the details of the law (called the DOT before the swap and asked about engine swaps and was told it only had to be an engine as new or newer than the model year of the vehicle, but I didn't specify it would be a diesel engine in the question) but it's such a good thing (cleaner emissions than the carb motor that was in it, twice the fuel economy, running on renewable fuel) that I would hope there wouldn't be an issue that couldn't be resolved. However, I somewhat doubt the legal controlling authorities would like it. Somebody is always trying control peoples freedoms. Also, in Iowa there is no vehicle inspection/smog tests.

My question is about getting it registered for use on the street. How did you go about that if the vehicle didnt come with a diesel engine to begin with? Did you re-title it?

Did some looking at regulations on engine swaps. Found this link where a government official responded to question regarding modifying older vehicles:

http://dodge.adv100.com/dodge/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=194399

"Basically, if it can be demonstrated that modifications to a vehicle do not cause the vehicle to exceed emission standards, we would not consider the modification to be illegal."

Nice way to sum things up. Of course the term "basically" does not cover all aspects of the law . . .

Someone PM'd me with a question I thought would be good to add to the public discussion. It was about why I used a lift pump and the implication of an intank fuel pump on a newer model vehicle. Please check my response and correct me if I gave any misinformation.

Good morning

My VW TDI doesn't have a lift pump, it just uses it's VE injection pump to pull fuel from the tank. The Chevy Duramax doesn't use a lift pump either. My Dodge Cummins uses a lift pump and I believe the Ford's use a lift pump.

The specs on the B3.3T talk about not needing a lift pump if there is less than some amount of restriction in the fuel line (don't recall exactly what that was). If there is excess restriction then it recommends one. It also specifies a maximum fuel pressure pushing into the VE pump, so you don't want a high pressure lift pump feeding the VE pump. I wasn't sure what my restriction was, and since I added a second fuel filter/water seperator with a 5um element and run a lot biodiesel (which is slightly thicker than petroleum diesel) I thought I'ld play it safe and add a lift pump. They are nice for priming the system after fuel filter changes. But I don't think a lift pump is necessarily a requirement.

Most gasoline engines with fuel injection use high pressure fuel pumps in the fuel tank. Your pump is probably located in your fuel tank and may not be compatible with diesel fuel. It also most likely feeds a lot of pressure. I would recommend removing the intank pump.

Regarding the emissions issue of this type of swap and the implications of increasing/decreasing the emissions over the original engine configuration:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/diesel/documents/EPAshort.htm

I found this link where California measured the NOx and PM emissions of various engines. They tested the B3.3 (not the B3.3T), it's down towards the bottom. NOx and PM were .128 g/kw-hr and .13 g/kw-hr. This is .095 g/hp-hr and .097 g/hp-hr. I would assume the B3.3T may be a bit higher but I can't find any data. However, as you will see there's lots of margin for error before getting in emissions trouble . . .

If you would assume traveling at 60 mph needs ~40 hp this would work out to 0.00633 g/ml NOx and 0.0067g/ml PM.

This link gives emission standards from Tier I to Tier II

http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld.php

Tier I reguirements were in effect up to ~1997. NOx emission limits were ~ 1g/ml and PM were ~0.1g/ml for Tier I. The B3.3 seems to be substantially below these limits. In fact it appears it would meet Tier II bin II emissions which is cleaner than my VW TDI.

A couple new things to report.

1.) Replaced the jeep’s transmission mount this weekend. Not having much experience with jeeps before this project I had assumed certain aspects of the drivetrain were normal for jeeps. Well, I’m pretty confident the transmission mount was shot when I bought the jeep because the new mount has radically changed the way it drives/feels. All of the driveline vibrations while driving down the road are now gone. Before, at 1500-1700 rpm under load the rear view mirror would have small, rapid vibrations that made it difficult to see out of. That is gone. The jeep previously had a rattle/looseness feel to it, especially under load, at all rpm’s, almost like it was contorting/twisting. Now it feels very solid. It also idles a bit more smoothly now, but it’s still not as good as my VW TDI or the Dodge Cummins.


2.) The engine now has over 10k on it and I did my first oil analysis. The oil was Shell Rotella 5w-40 synthetic CI-4+ and had a little over 5k mls on it. The analysis was done at the local Cat dealership.

Copper 2
Iron 14
Chrome 1
Lead 4
Aluminum 3
Silicon 12
Molybdenum 3
Sodium 3
Magnesium 12
Tin 0
Nickle 0
Zinc 1592
Water Neg
Fuel Neg
Glycol Neg
Soot 0
Oxidation 21
Nitration 0
Sulphur Products 24
Viscosity 14.5

The comments on the sheet are: “Wear values are normal. Water/fuel/glycol are acceptable. Infrared results are acceptable. Resample next interval.”

On the back of the sheet it describes what each of these tests may indicate. The soot value is supposed to be an indicator of combustion efficiency. I was glad to see this being a 0 since most of this oils time was during cold winter weather while running high percentages of biodiesel. The engine seems to be able to handle the slightly thicker viscosity of this fuel pretty well.

Any comments on the oil analysis by those experienced with them would be appreciated since I am not very knowledgeable in this area.

The only place I have used for oil analysis is Blackstone laboratories and they really explain it very well with there analysis.

Still waiting to see if I have an opportunity to get a deal on the QSB3.3.
I'm keeping my eye open for the ideal Wrangler to recieve the engine. I think I'd like to put it in a 2005 Wrangler Unlimited with a manual trans and a 3.07 axle ratio. If anyone has one, you know, collecting dust, let me know.

The only place I have used for oil analysis is Blackstone laboratories and they really explain it very well with there analysis.

I've been using amsoil's...http://oaitesting.com/

Tony

Still waiting to see if I have an opportunity to get a deal on the QSB3.3.
I'm keeping my eye open for the ideal Wrangler to recieve the engine. I think I'd like to put it in a 2005 Wrangler Unlimited with a manual trans and a 3.07 axle ratio. If anyone has one, you know, collecting dust, let me know.

I want to use one for a dakota, though I would like to use the QSB4.5

I don't know if this is legal to post on the forum, but I have a cummins 3.3 crate motor still on the crate it came on just sitting in the corner of the shop. This isn't the classifieds, though it fits perfect here. I bought it to do a conversion on a samurai.. I got caught up building another diesel drag truck, and sold my samurai, lift, tires, etc.. All I have left is the B3.3 motor.. If anyone wants to make me an offer, feel free.. I'm willing to take a loss. Paypal is fine with me..

I hit 35 mpg for the first time. The average for my last three fillups is ~32 mpg. The 35 mpg run was during some very nice weather (highs in the 70's to 80's, low humidity, no rain) and included back and forth to work, plus a long drive on partial interstate/county roads to a mountain biking trail near Iowa City (Sugar Bottom). This was on 70-80% biodiesel.

After getting back the oil analysis and seeing the ~0 soot levels I've decided to order a new set of injectors that I plan on modifying the hole size to get more fuel into the engine. The injectors were quoted to me as being $129 each (whole injector, not just the nozzle).

So, my question to the forum is for recommendations on places that can modify injectors. I would really like to get them tested also to see what pressure they fire at, the number/size of openings, etc. Any suggestions?

http://www.scheiddiesel.com/index.htm There are others, but Scheid is a good first call;)

Got my injectors. The Cummins dealership had a hard time tracking some down. There were only 4 they could find that were available and had to order them out of Canada. They showed up two at a time a week apart. They are injectors made by Zexel. Will update my picture site soon with the part #'s and what they look like (look just like a Bosch type).

Took them to the Bosch shop today and had them do a pop test to see what their opening pressure is since I couldn't track down any specs for them. The Bosch shop was unable to find a spec for these injectors even with the part number. They tested one injector and it measured at 208 bar or 3016 psi pop pressure. This seems quite high from my recollection of what my TDI's injector pop pressures are (was thinking ~1800-2000 psi).

I am only wanting a relatively small increase in fuel flow so I was leaning toward working with Extrude Hone and using their MicroFlow AFM (abrassive flow maching) process. The guy I talked to quoted a price of $33/nozzle to get a ~15% increase in flow.

Anyone have any experience/comments on MicroFlow AFM process for small increases in injector flow?

Anyone know how to quantify injection timing changes with modifications to pop pressure? Was thinking of lowering the pop pressure slightly (this can be done by adjusting the shims in the injector body) to advance the start of injection. Thinking this would also reduce the wear on the injection pump a bit since it would be pushing less pressure at the injectors. Comments/thoughts?

The pics of the injector is now on the photo link (the first post in this thread has the link).

Got my nozzles back from Extrude Hone and had the local Bosch shop put them back on the injector bodies and check the balance on the new injector bodies. They were all very closely balanced so no need to adjust them. The spray patterns looked excellent.

I've added photos that show some of the details of the injector swap. This was my first time swapping injectors and found the writeup at the TDIclub (http://pics.tdiclub.com/pdf/injector_install_howto.pdf) written by Davin Swanson to be extremely helpful. I spent about 3 hrs doing this.

There was some flaky carbon buildup on the injector nozzles (can see some of that on pic DSC00796) that wipped off with just a brushing of a rag. The injector tips after brushing with a rag are shown in pic DSC00797. I was glad to see that a year and 13,000 mls of running very high concentrations of biodiesel hadn't led to any excess carbon buildup on the tips of the injectors.

After the install I remeasured hp/torque with the accelerometer. At first I wasn't measuring much of any change from the previous runs but then realized I was running on >90% biodiesel. I topped off the ~1/2 full tank with D2 and re-measured with ~B50. The difference between peak torque on B90 and B50 was about 10-15 ft-lbs and peak hp was about 5-10 hp.

The photo section also has the new hp/torque curves measured with B50 on at 83 F. I had also adjusted the max rpm setting to ~3250 rpm where the governor defuels.

The modified injectors seems to help the max hp more than the max torque. I'm flirting with 140 hp now which is about 15 hp more than I had previously measured (about 12% increase). Max torque is now ~325 ft-lbs only about 10 ft-lbs more than previously measured (about 3-4% increase).

I still have no smoke at WOT and the EGT's and boost are not much if any higher (I have small analog gauges so it's hard to tell for certain).

I'm thinking it would be safe to say that one could go more than a 15% increase in nozzle modification and still be OK in terms of boost/EGT's.

The price for the nozzle modification was $33*4. The Bosch shop which removed the nozzels from the injector bodies, re-installed the nozzels and pop tested all the injectors was $64.

The yahoo picture site is closing so I've moved the pictures to flickr. The new weblink for the photos is:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10201173@N06/

I've also had two fill ups since the new nozzles were installed. The average for the these fillups which covered ~420 mls of mostly back and forth to work driving is 33.2mpg. This is an all time high for two consecutive fillups and included a single fillup all time high of 35.2 mpg (this one had some longer drives than the back and forth to work conditions).

I'm wondering if by having the injector holes larger it allows for a slight increase in injection timing? Since a given amount of fuel can be pushed through the injector nozzle in less time it would seem that for a given quantity of fuel from the injector pump it would effectively delivery this fuel into the cylinder faster, and closer to the optimum crank angle? Is this thinking correct or off-base? It would seem this improvement in effeciency would break down if the holes are so large that effective atomization of the fuel degrades and combustion efficiency starts decreasing.

Any comments on this theory?

TDIwyse,

I just sent you a PM this morning about the picture. You can ignore it.

Chuck



The yahoo picture site is closing so I've moved the pictures to flickr. The new weblink for the photos is:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10201173@N06/

I've had some people PM about updates.

Still driving it as my commuter vehicle. I've now had 8 fillups with the new nozzles. Fuel was B50-B90 over these fillups. Average fuel economy has improved by a statistically significant margin.

35.2
32.0
35.0
28.1 (lots of rain and stop-n-go in town driving)
35.3
31.8
32.4
33.5

I am unable to get the EGT's above 1100 F with the modified injectors. I'm thinking the injection pump is able to get the fuel into the cylinders sooner and is effectively advancing the timing, even at full fueling conditions.

The transmission seems to be holding up to the torque, but I'm not doing any rock climbing/towing. It does leak some tranny fluid but doesn't seem to be anyworse than when I got the jeep. The transfer case output shaft area has started leaking some fluid this summer. I've heard that's a pretty common issue with the slip yoke design of the np231.

I've decided not to pursue the power steering route and will be replacing the power steering gearbox/pitman arm with a manual steering box/arm. This should improve the steering effort as the turn ratio will go from 16:1 to 20:1. Will also reduce some weight on the front end.

12 or 24 volt alt and starter??
vacumm pump ?? for brake boooster??
what did you use for power steeing pump??

were you able to use to old gas tank and pump; or did you have to modfiy them to handle the heavyer diesel fuel versus gas. after your conversion.

i am thing of doing this convertion to my v6 toyota 4x4 extra cab 1991 with 4 inch lift kit and 4 wheel disc brakes.

12 Volt alternator and starter.

Page 1 and 2 of the thread discuss the brake and steering stuff.

In short, I'm using a 12V electric Stainless Steele Brakes vacuum pump for the brake booster. Saves fuel since it only runs when it needs to produce vacuum.

Also, I never did go the sae pump route to get my power steering working. Decided to just convert it to manual steering (I've been using the power steering gear box without the power steering pump).

12 or 24 volt alt and starter??
vacumm pump ?? for brake boooster??
what did you use for power steeing pump??

From page 4 of the thread

"Other things I've done in the past couple months to "dieselize" the jeep are: replaced steel fuel tank with a plastic one to minimize condensation. Added a Stanadyne Fuel Manager with 100W fuel heater and 5um fuel filter/H2O seperator elements inline with the factor fuel filter/H2O seperator. Added an electric lift pump and an inline mechanical pressure gauge. Replaced the trouble prone vacuum actuated front axle engagement motor with a mechanical Posi-Lok system.
"

The old steel tank was working fine, but I like the idea of plastic -- less risk of condensation.

Nice sounding project you're working on. Please keep me updated!

were you able to use to old gas tank and pump; or did you have to modfiy them to handle the heavyer diesel fuel versus gas. after your conversion.

i am thing of doing this convertion to my v6 toyota 4x4 extra cab 1991 with 4 inch lift kit and 4 wheel disc brakes.

i have 32's that actual measure about 33 inchs tall. with 4.10 front and rear diff. i turn 2600 rpm@80 and 2500 rpm at about 67 mph

so my question is runing the b3.3t at 2500 or 2600 rpm on the freway for commuting; would that be too high of rpm?? for too long??
i usually run about 65mph on the freeway.
i saw you said on page 6 the max is 3100 or 3200 rpm before damage to motor as i recall.

i like this b3.3t it has higher tq-ft than my gas motor,v6 stock 3vz; which will allow me to run a taller gear on the freeway; due to tha fact that hp rating is more relavent in higher rpm ranges and is derived fron tq-ft-lbs

quote from page 6

The engine is really smooth above 1700 rpm. I've been cruising in 4th gear at ~2000 rpm on the 55 mph county roads (actually going 60mph at 2000 rpm in 4th gear which is a 1:1 ratio for the AX-15). It's really smooth all the way up to 2600 rpm

You are probably directing most of your comments and questions to TDIwyse; I can't help but chime in...public board & all :cool:

If the basic design of the b3.3 is the same at the 6bt, then no...you can run WOT all day long if you want; only your mpg will suffer.

I would consider going down in gears...3.73 or even 3.55. With the low rpm torque of the b3.3, you should be able to tolerate a lower gear for crawling & wheeling, even with the 33's. The higher (lower numerical) gears should help increase mpg as well. I know the 6bt's, ISB, and ISBe are more efficient at lower RPMs; just don't go too low as you'll be lugging the motor.

HTH

Tony

What he said. [laugh]

The only two data points I could find for BSFC and rpm showed better efficiency at lower rpm. Also, the manual had 3250 rpm for the point where destructive harmonics start to occur.

As I recall there were some comments in the owners manual about not running at max power (which would be full fuel at max rpm) for more than a certain duty cycle (might have been something like for every hr at max power you need an hour below max power, but I can't recall off the top of my head). Think this is a pretty standard clause for industrial engines which can be forced to exert max power all day long which is almost unthinkable in an automobile (hills, stop lights, off ramps, traffic, speed limits, etc. would keep you from running at max power constantly).

I think you would be happier with a lower axle ratio. But the engine should be able to operate at 2600 rpm for extended periods without issue.


You are probably directing most of your comments and questions to TDIwyse; I can't help but chime in...public board & all :cool:

If the basic design of the b3.3 is the same at the 6bt, then no...you can run WOT all day long if you want; only your mpg will suffer.

I would consider going down in gears...3.73 or even 3.55. With the low rpm torque of the b3.3, you should be able to tolerate a lower gear for crawling & wheeling, even with the 33's. The higher (lower numerical) gears should help increase mpg as well. I know the 6bt's, ISB, and ISBe are more efficient at lower RPMs; just don't go too low as you'll be lugging the motor.

HTH

Tony

Keep in mind that the engine is new and will take awhile to break in.

I hope that you've broken it in properly (lots of WOT and loud pedal usage).

I'd expect that your mpg will settle in near 35mpg once it's all broken in.

Justin

Some taller tires would probably be cheaper than changing gear ratios.

Did a second oil analysis. Specifically wanted to see if the modified injectors were causing any issues. Here’s the info:

Oil Mobil 5w-40 CI4+ full synthetic oil
~4200 mls on oil (almost all of it with the modified injectors)
~ 14500 mls on engine

No oil used during this interval (or anytime that I can remember). Engine has been using synthetic oil since first oil change (which was done very early).

Wear Metals (ppm)
Al 2
Ca 2367
Cr 0
Cu 1
Fe 7
Pb 2
Mg 437
Mo 0
Ni 0
P 1132
K 4
Si 12
Na 2
Sn 0
Zn 1281

Oil Condition/Particle Count (ct/ml)
Soot 0
Oxidation 17
Nitration 7
Sulfation 18
Water Neg
Antifreeze Neg
Fuel Neg
Visc@100C 13.7

Comments
No Action Required. Wear metal analysis results are normal. Infrared analysis results are acceptable. Water/Fuel/Glycol physical tests are negative. No problems presently associated with this sample. Continue sampling at the normal interval.


I was glad to see no fuel or soot in the oil. It seems to me that the engine is doing well in the modified condition its in.

Also replaced the front steering linkage (tie rods, drag link, etc.) as the old ones were shot and rusted up so bad I couldn’t adjust them. Also put in a manual steering gear box. It’s much tighter feeling and easier to steer now. Was also able to align my steering wheel so that when the jeep is pointed straight the steering wheel is aligned correctly (that had always irritated me).

Dodge ram cummins turbo clamps vclamp Brand new, 1 still in open package,not sure what they all fit or the exact year but 1 has part # 04761274 , other is 52028977aa.

i found this on e-bay does this look like the part numbers or number for the exhaust flang??

Did a second oil analysis. Specifically wanted to see if the modified injectors were causing any issues. Here’s the info:

Oil Mobil 5w-40 CI4+ full synthetic oil
~4200 mls on oil (almost all of it with the modified injectors)
~ 14500 mls on engine




where do you send the oil?
is i all of th oil you drain or only a quart?
is there a special container you need to send it in with??

thanks for info

I've been using the local CAT dealership (Altorfer). It costs ~$12. The kits have two plastic containers. The smaller one (might be about 3/4 cup) fits inside the larger one. The larger one has a self addressed and postage paid label for mailing purposes. On this sample I didn't change the oil, but just drained some out and caught a sample from the stream.


Did a second oil analysis. Specifically wanted to see if the modified injectors were causing any issues. Here’s the info:

Oil Mobil 5w-40 CI4+ full synthetic oil
~4200 mls on oil (almost all of it with the modified injectors)
~ 14500 mls on engine




where do you send the oil?
is i all of th oil you drain or only a quart?
is there a special container you need to send it in with??

thanks for info

Don't have the pn handy for what I used. But as I recal it was the same clamp used on the 4bt and 6bt engines. There was also a special adapter piece that mated with the engine turbo outlet that was held in place with this type of clamp. The exhaust was then welded to this adapter piece.


Dodge ram cummins turbo clamps vclamp Brand new, 1 still in open package,not sure what they all fit or the exact year but 1 has part # 04761274 , other is 52028977aa.

i found this on e-bay does this look like the part numbers or number for the exhaust flang??

Hey TDI -
HOw about a video of the jeep starting up and running? I've spent two days reading this thread and am dying to hear it start up and run. I just wished I lived in the midwest, perhaps I'd actually get to see it drive by.

Jason

I could probably do that. I have a cheapo digital camera with mpeg video capability, but it's not great quality. I'll see what I can come up with. I should include the most exciting thing about the whole driving experience in the video -- which is the shut-down. The engine shakes the jeep pretty good when it quits running [laugh].

Any of you guys that have put the 4BT (3.9) in jeeps/trucks (or seen conversions like this) have this shut down jitter bug phenomena? It's similiar to how my Kubota diesel tractor stops. The VW has an "anti shudder" valve which essentially shuts off oxygen to the cylinders during shut down which gives it a much more elegant death. I kinda like the whole shudder thing in the jeep because it's such an un-refined vehicle to begin with. But if you were trying to make a more civilized conversion I think this aspect could be a detraction from the desired goal.




Hey TDI -
HOw about a video of the jeep starting up and running? I've spent two days reading this thread and am dying to hear it start up and run. I just wished I lived in the midwest, perhaps I'd actually get to see it drive by.

Jason

the shutdown sounds like all of the big trucks at work....

This is my quick video I took last night when I got back from work. The camera couldn't maintain focus very well, but you can hear what things sound like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdnPFtvVjPU

that's great. You have created some serious envy.....

I really enjoyed your project and writeup. About how long did the swap take from start to finish?

You've done some great work and created a mini diesel internet following.

Jason

Thanks, but I think you're giving me more credit than I deserve. I didn't mean to create envy, but to hopefully show another possible (and perhaps easier to implement) option for converting an ineffecient gas engine powered vehicle into an efficient diesel powered vehicle.

As far as the start to finish time, it's hard to say. It's been ~1.5 yrs and my memory isn't as clear on some of the details. If you mean the time between tearing into the jeep and it's first maiden voyage then about a month of part time work (a couple hrs after work some nights, several hrs on weekends, etc., many trips to part stores).

that's great. You have created some serious envy.....

I really enjoyed your project and writeup. About how long did the swap take from start to finish?

You've done some great work and created a mini diesel internet following.

Jason

What I appreciate most about this "build up" is that you went for all of the things I think are important:
1. Exceptional fuel economy for a vehicle that is not a Prius or Civic
2. "bolt up" solutions and not cobbled together one-off engineering
3. The fact that it maintains daily driver status
4. The stone cold reliability of a proven engine platform

You obviously put a lot of thought into this and have renewed my interest in pursuing a project of this nature.

i would love to put one of these or a 3.9 in my 98 jeep once the 4.0 gasser takes a dive.

Some updates.

We’ve had some good Iowa winter so far. Lots of snow/sleet/ice/cold/wind. Been running ~ B20-40 due to the cold. The modified injectors have not seemed to negatively impact the cold start performance of the jeep, which is good. The average fuel economy for back and forth to work driving the past month has dropped into the ~30 mpg area.

Did another oil analysis to check the impact of the modified injectors on the engine. The oil is the same from the last report but has an additional ~2 months more driving on it in some very cold, wintry conditions. It’s ~6 months on the oil and a little over 6000 mls.

I’m glad to see the injectors seem to be doing a good job of atomizing the fuel as there’s no soot/fuel getting into the oil.

Mobile 1 5w-40 CI-4+

Wear Metals
AL 2
Ca 2570
Cr 0
Cu 2
Fe 10
Pb 3
Mg 485
Mo 5
Ni 0
P 1247
K 5
Si 13
Na 1
Sn 0
Zn 1369

Oil Condition/Particle Count (ct/ml)
Soot 0
Oxidation 18
Nitration 8
Sulfation 19
Water Neg
Antifreeze Neg
Fuel Neg
Vis @ 40C 13.8

Yup, this is me still jealous.

First off, I've been watching the conversion since you started posting it. I think you've done an amazing job and continue to do so. You are supporting America and doing something that many people will be able to do.

Just wondering about how much money and time you have put into the project up to this point. I'm thinking of doing it to a Cherokee. I'm not very mechanically savy, but I think I could have help from a couple of mechanic friends. Thanks in advance for the info.

Where did you find the 3.3BT? I've been browsing passively with interest in putting one into a 4runner or Toyota Pickup. Haven't had much luck finding one, yet....

Back in one of the first posts I mentioned I bought it new from the local Cummins dealership. ~$3800 with a 2yr/2000hr warranty (which I promptly voided by altering the engine). It came to their dealership on a crate and they loaded it into my truck and I drove it home.

Where did you find the 3.3BT? I've been browsing passively with interest in putting one into a 4runner or Toyota Pickup. Haven't had much luck finding one, yet....

Thanks.

Page 8 post 109 has some $ info. I'd say with the new engine, adapters, intercooler, new modified injectors, intake grid heater, turbo exhaust clamp adapter, 3 in exhaust, electric brake vacuum, electric radiator fan, nuts/bolts/hoses, etc. I would be in the neighborhood of $5-$6k. Finding a used/remanufactured B3.3T and not buying a new set of injectors would significantly reduce the cost.

Regarding time it's hard to quantify for certain. It's not something you should plan on knocking out in a weekend. Also, expect to encounter some snags -- that way when they happen it won't be so aggravating.[laugh]

The Cherokee would give you a much more practical conversion and better mpg's since the aerodynamics are so much better. I'd love to hear about it if you get the conversion done.

First off, I've been watching the conversion since you started posting it. I think you've done an amazing job and continue to do so. You are supporting America and doing something that many people will be able to do.

Just wondering about how much money and time you have put into the project up to this point. I'm thinking of doing it to a Cherokee. I'm not very mechanically savy, but I think I could have help from a couple of mechanic friends. Thanks in advance for the info.

Keep the updates coming.
So far, just oil changes and fuel fills?

I've tried to keep the thread up to date but I'm afraid its become so long that some of the info is hard to find.

The engine itself has been flawless and besides modifying the injectors, adding an intercooler, turning up the fuel and rpm limits, has only had the normal maintenance: oil, oil filter, fuel filters.

At this point in the project it's down to just being a daily driving vehicle and I'm not planning any additional mods. If anything unusual happens to the engine I'll come back and add that info.

If I only had more garage space I'd like to get another B3.3T and put it in an older car . . .

Keep the updates coming.
So far, just oil changes and fuel fills?

What type of car? '70's Corvette?;)

I'd be curious to know what kind of mileage you could get out of something with better aerodynamics.

Probably not a corvette [laugh]

Don't actually know enough about old cars and I don't have any garage space so I haven't gone beyond the dream stage. It would need to have some good engine bay space and sturdy frame rails to support and hold the engine.

Since the BSFC is only slightly less than what my VW 1.9 ALH engine is capable of I'd estimate getting into the lower/mid 40's would be attainable.

What type of car? '70's Corvette?;)

I'd be curious to know what kind of mileage you could get out of something with better aerodynamics.

Work slowed down a little this week and an email from a friend who's a diesel fanatic got me thinking. One area I hadn't tweaked yet that is commonly done on the older VE pumped 3.9 and 5.9's is advancing the injection timing by slightly rotating the injection pump. Since the B3.3T was a Tier II compliant engine without using EGR I'm guessing it's injection timing is fairly retarded stock.

By advancing the timing I'm mainly hoping to eek out a little more efficiency, a little more top end hp, and also improve the white smoke on cold startup.

There's lots of good information on this sight in the 1st gen section on those who have done this mod. Found it very helpful.

There's a few differences with the B3.3T from the 4bt and 6bt VE engines. These include:
12mm bolts instead of 13mm.
No S wrench needed to access IP 12mm bolts (the back one I needed a long ~ 16in extension to reach).
An extra mounting bracket under the pump (two bolts - one 12mm other 14mm)
And the most irritating part is a special anti-tamper bracket that locks the IP in place and requires a special tool.

I thought this last bolt was a Torx TR (tamper resistant) as that's what it looked like. Called the Cummins shop and talked with my friend there and he sent me the shop manual section that describes removal and timing setting of the IP. It didn't mention this anti-tamper bolt and bracket in the writeup.

I tried T30,35,40,45 tamper resistant wrench sizes on it and none fit. My micrometer measurement showed the teeth spacing being a little more than the T40 and less than the T45. However the stub in the center was too big to fit into the hole of the T40 TR head. Tried drilling the hole bigger to no avail. Finally I just got out my cutting tool and cut some groves in it and used these for grip and removed it that way.

After removing that part it was very similiar to the writeups for the other VE pump adjustments. I also had to add some marks for the reference position since I couldn't see any.

The other writeups I read seemed like people were rotating anywhere from 1/16 to 1/8 of an inch. Since I had no reference for other B3.3T owners I went a bit on the conservative side at ~1/16.

After rotating The IP I couldn't get the tamper proof bracket back on without increasing the bolt hole size. Guess they didn't want people to tamper with the IP location.

I'll add some pics to the photo link in the next couple days.

How's it run since you did it?

Hard to tell for sure. It's really cold here (0 F air temp) and the roads are still partially snow covered so I wasn't able to test it very well. The temps are supposed to max out at ~11-12 F so when I start it this afternoon after sitting outside in the cold I should get a good idea about the white smoke on startup.

The sound of the engine when I first turned it over this morning (it lives in an attached garage) seemed about the same as before, perhaps a little smoother. But this could just be wishful thinking on my part as I don't have a good way to quantify the sound. It didn't sound like it was advanced too far from what I've read about in the other threads where they've bumped the IP timing on the VE pumped engines.


How's it run since you did it?

awesome sounding rig man. thanks for the info i will continue to read it through!

Yesterday afternoon was a good test for the white smoke at startup after advancing the IP timing. Air temp was ~0F in the morning and warmed up to ~11 to 12F air temp in the afternoon when I left work. Ran the grid heater for 10 seconds and the B3.3T fired right up with just a puff of white smoke.

Comparing this to a similiar temp on Monday (day started somewhat warm in the mid to upper teens in the morning and fell to the lower teens by the afternoon when I left work) with the stock IP timing and running the grid heater for 10 seconds the engine took about 7-8 seconds for the white smoke to stop. So I can quantify a significant startup improved from the advanced IP timing.

The roads were also better in the afternoon when I came home so I was able to give the engine some more fuel than the drive into work in the morning. It felt strong and sounded good, but I have not tried to quantify if there's any improvement in top end hp. I'll track mpg's over the next month or so and see if it improves.

TDIwyse,

thanks for the great posts and info. I am in the process of converting my 1990 Cherokee to the Cummins 3.3 after reading your post. I bought a 3.3 off Ebay several months ago and had to change out the flywheel housing because it was too short. Ready to pull the Cherokee engine hopefully this week and order the adapters. I hope you stay acitve we can use your resources. With all the interest, maybe a new thread should be started with Cherokee owners. How about using a electric power sterring unit from a Toyota MR2? http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/convpgs/psteer.php This is what I plan on doing.

Chris
AKA: BigBlue

Thanks.

Updated the photo site with the VE pump timing adjustment.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10201173@N06

Good luck with your project and I hope it turns out well. If you go the electric power steering route it might be worth your time to upgrade the alternator from the little 60amp unit or go to a dual battery setup. In the winter when I'm running the heater/defroster fan, lights on, whippers going, fuel heater running, and the electric vacuum brake pump kicks on my electrical system dips into the battery for amperage help.

I'm curious about your flywheel housing comments. What housing came on it stock and what did you change it to? Was it another Cummins housing with a different length? How much longer was the new housing? Are you using the Pheonix Castings SAE to GM adapter set or did you make your own?

TDIwyse,

thanks for the great posts and info. I am in the process of converting my 1990 Cherokee to the Cummins 3.3 after reading your post. I bought a 3.3 off Ebay several months ago and had to change out the flywheel housing because it was too short. Ready to pull the Cherokee engine hopefully this week and order the adapters. I hope you stay acitve we can use your resources. With all the interest, maybe a new thread should be started with Cherokee owners. How about using a electric power sterring unit from a Toyota MR2? http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/convpgs/psteer.php This is what I plan on doing.

Chris
AKA: BigBlue

I had to switch to a longer Cummins flywheel housing. The original flywheel housing didn't even cover the original flywheel - it was short by .25 inches. I will be using the Phoenix Casting SAE to GM adapter and probably the Advance Adapter to the AX-15. I've already been in touch with Phoenix.

I am also looking at Novak Conversions: http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/xj_swap.htm. It looks similar to Advances system, but uses a GM Hydraulic Clutch Slave instead of a Toyota as Advance does. Did you look at the Novak system?

I know I am going to have to upgrade the alternator and a dual battery system because I want to run an electric 3 fan system on the radiator and possibly a Bosch electric water pump, bypassing the pump on the engine. I am going to need airconditioning for the hot California summers - any suggestions? I don't see any practical place to mount airconditioning on the engine. Maybe a 2hp DC motor driving the pump or a hydraulic motor off the PTO? I'll have to check with Cummins to see if a power steering option was available - maybe I could utilize the bracket or mounts.

Chris

Thanks for the info about the flywheel housing.

I briefly looked at some of the Novak items. Seemed like it was good quality as I recall.

I'm not familiar with the electric water pump idea. What are the benefits of this approach?

Pretty sure there was no power steering option with the 3.3 series. It's pretty much a one configuration engine as far as I could tell.

The PTO opens a lot of possibilities for running your AC and other equipment. I briefly looked at doing something like that with my power steering but did not pursue. I would love to see what you come up with for utilizing it!

Thanks for the info about the flywheel housing.

I briefly looked at some of the Novak items. Seemed like it was good quality as I recall.

I'm not familiar with the electric water pump idea. What are the benefits of this approach?

Pretty sure there was no power steering option with the 3.3 series. It's pretty much a one configuration engine as far as I could tell.

The PTO opens a lot of possibilities for running your AC and other equipment. I briefly looked at doing something like that with my power steering but did not pursue. I would love to see what you come up with for utilizing it!

Benifits of the electric water pump are increased availability of engine HP. Less load on the engine. Also more control of vehicle tempurature. BMW went to them recently and now BMW engines have multiple normal operating temps, 3 if I remember off the top of my head. Warm up, Power and economy.

Interesting, thanks. How would you go about doing this on an engine already setup with a traditional water pump? BigBluemotors mentions bypassing the existing pump -- I'm curious to see how this would be done.

Benifits of the electric water pump are increased availability of engine HP. Less load on the engine. Also more control of vehicle tempurature. BMW went to them recently and now BMW engines have multiple normal operating temps, 3 if I remember off the top of my head. Warm up, Power and economy.

Interesting, thanks. How would you go about doing this on an engine already setup with a traditional water pump? BigBluemotors mentions bypassing the existing pump -- I'm curious to see how this would be done.

Hmm, that one I dont know. I just know how to work on and diagnosis the BMW with it. It basically controls the temp of the engine. For warm up it doesnt move the water so the engine with heat up quicker, for power mode it cools the engine a bit to help the injection run rich and opposite for economy.

Its controlled in tandem with the fuel injection, which on the latest BMW is pulse width modulated for injection time. Completely computer controlled how long the injectors are open. Doesnt even use O2 sensors anymore. Now its air fuel ratio sensors.

That's some wild stuff. Thanks for sharing that tech information.

It was -20F air temp this morning and it's the coldest temps the engine has seen. Stopped and topped off with pump diesel and brought the fuel tank down to B10. The Jeep ran good on the way to work except that the heater can't keep up with all the "fresh air" dumping in through the ill-fitting hard top, doors, etc. These old wranglers REALLY are not designed for comfortable cold weather travel. Also, the clutch pedal was getting pretty stiff after the 20 minute drive. This happens in our VW and Ram as well when it's really cold.

We'll see if the B3.3T can fire up this afternoon after cold soaking all day. I'm expecting a fair bit of white smoke . . .

That's some wild stuff. Thanks for sharing that tech information.

It was -20F air temp this morning and it's the coldest temps the engine has seen. Stopped and topped off with pump diesel and brought the fuel tank down to B10. The Jeep ran good on the way to work except that the heater can't keep up with all the "fresh air" dumping in through the ill-fitting hard top, doors, etc. These old wranglers REALLY are not designed for comfortable cold weather travel. Also, the clutch pedal was getting pretty stiff after the 20 minute drive. This happens in our VW and Ram as well when it's really cold.

We'll see if the B3.3T can fire up this afternoon after cold soaking all day. I'm expecting a fair bit of white smoke . . .


I remember that with my old jeep, and it was only a 94, not all that old. When the outside temp dropped below freezing I couldnt go above 55. Not because the vehicle couldnt go faster, because it was just too cold!! Heater on max and I am fully dressed for outdoors and freezing my butt off! Drop below 55 mph and I could survive.

You think your hard top lets in the air, imagine a soft top and doors. I had an 81 CJ5 with a 5.0 EFI from a mustang in it. It was so much fun to drive, I'd wear coveralls, a carhart coat, thick gloves, and a stocking cap just so I could stand the cold driving it into work in the winter...[dummy]

Someday, I'll build another one with a 4 cyl cummins.

Awesome conversion and post BTW. Not many people go thru the trouble of sharing all their info and pics of their work.:cool:

Thanks. I enjoyed reading your thread as well.

Awesome conversion and post BTW. Not many people go thru the trouble of sharing all their info and pics of their work.:cool:

You two are costing me money (because now I'm hunting for a donor for a 3.9BT). Any ideas for cool recipients? I'd love to go 3.3 but that's definitely not readily available.

I had to wait at my dealership for the parts man to come back from lunch once. I passed the time by opening the hood of the Dodge nitro on the showroom floor and measuring the engine compartment. I think a 3.9 would look awesome in there...

The first time I met someone who was into diesel conversions the initial words out of my mouth were, "My wife is NOT going to like me talking with you."

You two are costing me money (because now I'm hunting for a donor for a 3.9BT). Any ideas for cool recipients? I'd love to go 3.3 but that's definitely not readily available.

TDIwyse, did you happen to ask or know what an electronic 3.3 cost new?

No. I'm affraid if I ask the question next thing I'll know there will be one in my garage . . .

TDIwyse, did you happen to ask or know what an electronic 3.3 cost new?

Maybe it's better if you don't answer that question for both of us...[laugh][laugh]

Maybe it's better if you don't answer that question for both of us...[laugh][laugh]
Make that three....

Common rail in a nitro would just be sweet. I actually like the way they look but couldn't actually see myself driving some mini wanna-be SUV.

Now, I could see my girlfriend driving a diesel common rail powered nitro :p

You should see how she reacts when I notice a truck on the side of the road for sale with no motor...

I found another rpm point where BSFC is given. Uploaded the picture from that brochure on the flickr site. At 1400 rpm it's .345 lb/hp-hr which is lower than the 1600 rpm point.

I also uploaded a picture of the EPA tag on the engine block which shows the factory timing of 5 degrees BTDC. This seems extremely retarded from what I've read about other engines. Seems ~14-15 degrees BTDC was what the VE equipped 5.9 and 3.9 B series engines used to be set at from the factory. Any thoughts on this?

As a reference on page 14 of this study http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/old/ap42/ch03/s03/reference/bref15_c03s03_ch02_1996.pdf shows a nice curve of what happens to NOx and BSFC as timing is retarded from about 14 to 8 deg BTDC on a Cat off highway engine. Retarding does reduce NOx but causes a large BSFC hit.

Forgot to talk about the cold start yesterday: I ran an errand 4 hrs after parking the jeep in the morning so I don't think the engine had completely cooled to ambient (which was still -10 F air temp) as it turned over with only a puff of white smoke. Wasn't the extreme test I thought it might be . . .

TDIWYSE,

sorry I didn't reply earlier to your inquire about how the electric pump is installed. Basically you can bypass your mechanical pump or remove the impellar from the mechanical pump. The electric pump is installed in your radiator return hose. You can hardwire the pump to turn on when you turn the ignition on or use an eletronic controller with preset temps. Here's a link:
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/display.asp?pid=47 Why would I install a system? Because I can! I am hoping to provide more cooling efficiency, MPG, and horsepower. I like to do things different.

Chris
AKA: BigBlue

Morse, do you still have that B3.3 sitting around?

I think I've advanced the timing by 3 degrees (putting me at 8 degrees BTDC) based upon the following logic:

If I know the distance (X) from the center shaft of the IP to the outer bolt and also know the verticle rotation
distance (Y) then I can use trigonometry to back calculate the angle rotated.

. |\
Y| \
. ---- Tan(angle)=Y/X
..... X

Or, angle = inverse Tan(Y/X)

Multiplying this by 2 (the engine rotates twice for every pump rotation) gives, I think, the degrees of timing
advance. For my pump X is right at 2 inches, and I rotated the pump (according to my micrometer) just over 1/20 of an inch.
This works out to 3 degrees of timing advance. If my assumptions are correct.

Also did some fuel economy number crunching. Below is the historical monthly average mpg's since the jeep's by
in service.

....Jan...Feb..Mar...Apr..May..Jun..Jul..Aug..Sep. .Oct..Nov..Dec
06 xx.x xx.x xx.x xx.x xx.x xx.x.... 30.1 29.9 28.6 27.8 27.3 26.7
07 26.7 26.3 29.0 29.7 31.4 30.3 34.1 31.7 31.2 31.5 29.0 27.9
08 28.7

I've now had two fillups since advancing the timing. They've averaged 31.9 mpg. So the increase from 28.7 average in Jan 08 to 31.9 in Jan 08 with the timing bump indicates about 10% increase.

This lines up fairly closely to the emission study a few posts up if you look on page 14 at the BSFC/NOx/HC/CO/PM tradeoff. When they Advance the timing BTDC from 8 to 11 degrees (a change of 3 degrees) the BSFC improves ~10 %.

....Jan...Feb..Mar...Apr..May..Jun..Jul..Aug..Sep. .Oct..Nov..Dec
06 xx.x xx.x xx.x xx.x xx.x xx.x.... 30.1 29.9 28.6 27.8 27.3 26.7
07 26.7 26.3 29.0 29.7 31.4 30.3 34.1 31.7 31.2 31.5 29.0 27.9
08 28.7

I've now had two fillups since advancing the timing. They've averaged 31.9 mpg. So the increase from 28.7 average in Jan 08 to 31.9 in Jan 08 with the timing bump indicates about 10% increase.


31.9 where? You said Jan 08 twice also, so that's a bit confusing there. Keep in mind we're on winter fuel, idle times increase, etc... just imagine the summer economy :o

Your X measurement would actually be the hypotenuse of the triangle so inverse SIN is what you would want to use, but at these small angles SIN and TAN yield nearly the same result.

There are two Jan 08 data points: Pre and post timing bump. Pre timing bump the average for the month was 28.7. The two fillups post timing bump in Jan 08 averaged 31.9 (this was not in the table but mentioned in the paragraph below the table). Hope that makes it clear.

I'm hoping the trend continues into the summer as well :)

31.9 where? You said Jan 08 twice also, so that's a bit confusing there. Keep in mind we're on winter fuel, idle times increase, etc... just imagine the summer economy :o

Since it's not exactly a right triangle it's a bit of swag to begin with but I see your point. So does the thought process seem sound? It seems to be in the ballpark of the 1mm=2degs from the reference a few posts back.


Your X measurement would actually be the hypotenuse of the triangle so inverse SIN is what you would want to use, but at these small angles SIN and TAN yield nearly the same result.


--------------------------
On edit: http://www.flashoffroad.com/Diesel/injectionpump/injectionpump.htm contains the ref to the 1mm~2deg.

Well, I got 2.86* when I did the math, so I'd say you're close. How come you didn't shoot for around ten? Too much advance?

I'm a bit conservative and since I can't find any information about others who have fooled around with this particular engine I'm going slow . . .

Well, I got 2.86* when I did the math, so I'd say you're close. How come you didn't shoot for around ten? Too much advance?

Since it's not exactly a right triangle it's a bit of swag to begin with but I see your point. So does the thought process seem sound? It seems to be in the ballpark of the 1mm=2degs from the reference a few posts back.

Yeah after I posted that I realized that getting 'Y' measured perpendicular to the hypotenuse would be pretty difficult. Again with the small angles it's pretty neglegible, like 4th decimel place. The factor of 2 was a good catch I didn't even think about that until I read it.

this is awesome. I have been following this project for some time, my wife just rolls her eyes when I talk about it. One of us that appreciates it REALLY needs to follow suit and install a 3.3T in another vehicle.

I love the video clip on YouTube. How about some other ones viewing the engine bay, or a short one while driving.

Thanks for being so dilligent keeping us informed.

Well I can't promise a 3.3, but I can promise a 4cyl cummins in the next year or two. I've been searching high and low for an acceptable Toyota Pick-up donor chassis, but I've yet to find one in the kinda condition I'd like.

How about this? I tried to focus the camera so you could see EGT/boost/rpm.

Cruising along on a county road on a snowy Iowa day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_rnr8oIc98

Shifting 2nd through 5th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STGzzYCNibg

I was gonna do some more but I stopped to check how the videos were looking and like an idiot I used the parking brake which I haven't done in months and one of the rear drum brakes wouldn't release. I just got done ripping it apart and fixing that.


this is awesome. I have been following this project for some time, my wife just rolls her eyes when I talk about it. One of us that appreciates it REALLY needs to follow suit and install a 3.3T in another vehicle.

I love the video clip on YouTube. How about some other ones viewing the engine bay, or a short one while driving.

Thanks for being so dilligent keeping us informed.

Time to move this to the conversion section!

Awesome Vids, Sounds like a big rig running through the gears

Thanks. I shot a couple engine bay vids: One of the jeep with motor running and one of my VW TDI running with it's sound insulation top cover off . The B3.3T is louder, but not horribly so. I'll try to get those posted in the next couple days.

Great videos.

great project.

I have been following this thread for a few months and thought I would chime in. I put a 3.3 cummins in a 99 GMC Sonoma extended cab. Just got it road worthy last week and have only put about 15 miles on it. Still have a list of things to fix but the worst problem I have is vibration. I had the bright idea to use polyurethane motor mounts to keep engine movement to a minimum but they transmit to much vibration to the chassis. I have a set of rubber mounts on order but haven't got them yet.
Back to the truck it was a 5speed with a 4.3 v6 originally. I used the phoenix casting adapters(got the right ones on the second try as I had a similar issue with a shorter engine side housing. I used the existing trans which is a NV3500. And the factory rearend has 3.08 gears. I moved the engine and trans back approx 3" for clearance and to get more weight off the nose of the truck. I also fabricated a new oil pan an clearanced the front crossmember so it would all fit under the stock hood.
One other item i changed was the flywheel. The original 4.3 flywheel weighed in at 44lbs and caused a decent amount of vibration being externally balanced. I changed it to a neutral balance RAM flywheel for a circle track car that only weighs 16lbs. It cut my vibrations in half and really helped accelleration.
Sorry to ramble just excited I got my project running and it has great power for a small truck.
One question for TDIwyse do you hear alot of turbo whine from your engine? Mine is very noticeable at low boost but once it gets to 3 or 4 pounds the noise almost goes away. It is annoying at about 45-50 in overdrive but is very quiet above 65.

Nice! Are you using the B3.3T or the QSB3.3? Do you have a writeup somewhere? I'd like to see more details!

I've tried using a polyurethan trans mount after I noticed the rubber one was destroyed. It vibrated A LOT with that trans mount so I can only imagine what having motor mounts would do! I went back to using rubber mounts everywhere and its very smooth at rpm's above ~1k. At idle ~900rpms its not super smooth, but unless it's really cold (<20F) it's not vibrating enough to move the mirrors. The one youtube video of it at idle I film the rearview mirror and you can see it's steady. Does the vibration change with rpm?

I also went with a lighter weight flywheel (not as light as yours though) that was for the newer GM V8's and it had a small external balancing weight. In hindsight I was thinking I should've ground that off but I wanted to be able to sell as much stuff as possible if the project didn't work out. I would think going to rubber mounts is going to really help your vibrations. If not then maybe my engine's minimal vibes is due to blind luck on getting the flywheel balancing weight in a good location?

I think your 3.08 axle ratio is a good match for this engine.

I don't notice any turbo whine on mine. I sometimes notice it on my Ram, but haven't on the jeep. And it's only at really low boost that you notice it?

I have been following this thread for a few months and thought I would chime in. I put a 3.3 cummins in a 99 GMC Sonoma extended cab. Just got it road worthy last week and have only put about 15 miles on it. Still have a list of things to fix but the worst problem I have is vibration. I had the bright idea to use polyurethane motor mounts to keep engine movement to a minimum but they transmit to much vibration to the chassis. I have a set of rubber mounts on order but haven't got them yet.
Back to the truck it was a 5speed with a 4.3 v6 originally. I used the phoenix casting adapters(got the right ones on the second try as I had a similar issue with a shorter engine side housing. I used the existing trans which is a NV3500. And the factory rearend has 3.08 gears. I moved the engine and trans back approx 3" for clearance and to get more weight off the nose of the truck. I also fabricated a new oil pan an clearanced the front crossmember so it would all fit under the stock hood.
One other item i changed was the flywheel. The original 4.3 flywheel weighed in at 44lbs and caused a decent amount of vibration being externally balanced. I changed it to a neutral balance RAM flywheel for a circle track car that only weighs 16lbs. It cut my vibrations in half and really helped accelleration.
Sorry to ramble just excited I got my project running and it has great power for a small truck.
One question for TDIwyse do you hear alot of turbo whine from your engine? Mine is very noticeable at low boost but once it gets to 3 or 4 pounds the noise almost goes away. It is annoying at about 45-50 in overdrive but is very quiet above 65.

As I'm thinking about the flywheel thing I'm not sure if my memory is correct. I thought it was a 153 tooth flywheel for a GM V8, which some quick online searches indicate would be a neutrally balanced flywheel. I'll try to find my receipt tonight and see what I actually used.

3.3Sonoma - awesome swap. I'd also love to see more info/details on it. You should start your own post (lots of pics would be great).

Were are you located?

Called my wife and she found my receipt. This is what I used:

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=RNB&MfrPartNumber=04633

It says it's about 16 lbs and was used on 86-92 Camaro and 86-88 Corvette. These guys used a small balancing weight on the flywheel.

Don't really have my own write up anywhere. Posted a few times on 4btswaps.com. I am located west of chicago near Sandwich, IL
I am wondering since I did not buy the exhaust adapter from cummins and instead made a downpipe and got a v bandclamp and flanges from summit and just welded it to each side if that is the reason for the turbo whine.
I did drive the truck once with the heavy 4.3 flywheel and you could tell it hampered acceleration compared to the light one I used. My thought was there is already a heavy flywheel on the engine and I did not need to add a lot of mass with the second one.
I saw alot of posts about power steering and even figured out a way to use the pto drive to drive power steering pump from a 3126 cat but it was going to cost $500-$600 so instead I bought a manual steering box from a mid 80s s10 for $50 and it is just fine for me.
Still working on the A/C part

The engine is a B3.3T 85hp version. It appears the only difference from my engine to yours is the engine side bellhousing. I had to order a different flywheel adapter from phoenix casting as my engine housing is 1.125" shollower than standard if that makes sense.

Interesting thought on the exhaust clamp. Sorry I'm no help on that.

I had similiar thoughts on the flywheel. I think this is why I went with the lightweight flywheel even though it had a balancing weight. I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts on the long term impact this will have. Since I rarely spin the engine above ~2200 rpm's and it's internals are so heavy compared to the little flywheel, is it a problem? If there's a problem with imbalance would it show up in oil analysis as excess wear metals?

Don't really have my own write up anywhere. Posted a few times on 4btswaps.com. I am located west of chicago near Sandwich, IL
I am wondering since I did not buy the exhaust adapter from cummins and instead made a downpipe and got a v bandclamp and flanges from summit and just welded it to each side if that is the reason for the turbo whine.
I did drive the truck once with the heavy 4.3 flywheel and you could tell it hampered acceleration compared to the light one I used. My thought was there is already a heavy flywheel on the engine and I did not need to add a lot of mass with the second one.
I saw alot of posts about power steering and even figured out a way to use the pto drive to drive power steering pump from a 3126 cat but it was going to cost $500-$600 so instead I bought a manual steering box from a mid 80s s10 for $50 and it is just fine for me.
Still working on the A/C part

Just a little insight after my build. I think if I had to do it over again I would have tried to find a 1/2 ton shortbed regular cab truck. Alot more room under the hood and I still think the 3.3 would have enough power for a truck that size.
The swap I did is not for the person without quite a few fabrication skills as I had to remove and widen the trans tunnel near the firewall, remade the oil pan to clear front cross member, removed half of front crossmember and built second crossmember, modified trans crossmember for setback. Most of this was done so the engine would fit under the factory hood.
The main purpose of my build was I wanted a truck to drive to work but needed something that got better mileage than my 6.0 superduty(I drive 118 miles round trip to work. I also drive trough chicago traffic and a few higher class towns so I wanted the engine to fit under the stock hood and i used a 7.3 superduty exhaust system with aftermarket 4" MBRP muffler from my 6 liter to keep noise levels down. I am very happy with the finished project so far as the truck has plenty of power at highway speed and tops out at 92 MPH with the current gearing. The factory dash all works except for the tach. I hope to have fuel mileage #s this weekend as I plan on taking the truck on its first long trip of about 110 miles

Oh man am I excited! You gotta start a thread with some pics.

Regarding the tach, I've been really happy with the Dakota Digital adapter I've been using.

Just a little insight after my build. I think if I had to do it over again I would have tried to find a 1/2 ton shortbed regular cab truck. Alot more room under the hood and I still think the 3.3 would have enough power for a truck that size.
The swap I did is not for the person without quite a few fabrication skills as I had to remove and widen the trans tunnel near the firewall, remade the oil pan to clear front cross member, removed half of front crossmember and built second crossmember, modified trans crossmember for setback. Most of this was done so the engine would fit under the factory hood.
The main purpose of my build was I wanted a truck to drive to work but needed something that got better mileage than my 6.0 superduty(I drive 118 miles round trip to work. I also drive trough chicago traffic and a few higher class towns so I wanted the engine to fit under the stock hood and i used a 7.3 superduty exhaust system with aftermarket 4" MBRP muffler from my 6 liter to keep noise levels down. I am very happy with the finished project so far as the truck has plenty of power at highway speed and tops out at 92 MPH with the current gearing. The factory dash all works except for the tach. I hope to have fuel mileage #s this weekend as I plan on taking the truck on its first long trip of about 110 miles

Yeah if I put in a tach I was going to use the dakota digital setup and an after market tach. The stock tach runs out of the pcm and looks like it would be difficult. The wiring took me a good three full days and was real happy when finished. My service engine and battery lights stay on because the computer doesn't know the engine ever started but I am ok with the two lights since I got everthing else to work. It was interesting doing the wiring since there is a PCM (engine management computer) and a BCM( body control computer) but in the end even my automatic on off headlights still work.

I will try to take some pics this weekend

that's what I'm talking about. You have got to post some photos, a writeup, and some videos of it running.

Uploaded the videos that show the sound of the B3.3T and my VW TDI at idle.

The Jeep B3.3T is here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYeMNGBqn_g

The VW TDI (with the top insulation cover removed) is shown here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl3sIlOaMTY

Another blizzard moved through last night and today so we were snowed in. Took the time to adjust the valves. The manual suggested doing this at 250 hrs/3 mos and then every 2000 hrs/2 yrs. The engine hr meter I put on is showing about ~ 450 hrs and I've got about 1 yr 8 mos, so I'm over the recommended time and age on adjustment.

I've updated the photo site with pictures of the valve train.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10201173@N06/

All the intake valves were about right (0.014 in) so I left them. All the exhaust valves were a bit too tight to meet the spec (0.020 in) so I adjusted all those. Used a new gasket to reseal the valve cover. Will check for leaks over the next few days. I've never adjusted valves before so I was very careful and followed the manual to a "T". Took me about 2 hrs. I think next time I could do it in less than 30 minutes as it's pretty straight forward.

I am curious as to what kind of boost #s and exhaust temp you see at highway speeds. In my sonoma at 70mph i get 5-6 pounds of boost and about 550 on the exhaust temp. The engine does not even register any boost at 55mph like there is no load on the engine but seems to build boost quickly above that speed. I did fill up for the first time and got 31mpg with mostly tollway and in traffic driving. Hoping to get better once it warms up but am still fighting some vibration issues.

At 60 I've got about 25 hp of wind drag (and maybe 10hp of drivetrain/tire loss) to overcome whereas you would have about 16 hp of wind drag which isn't much load on the engine.

At 70 your at about 25 hp of wind drag which is about where I'm at at 60mph. So comparing my 60mph to your 70mph would be about equivalent hp loads on the engine. At 60 with no headwind I'm usually at ~3-4 lbs of boost and ~550-600 deg EGT's in this cold weather. Actually my one youtube video shows me traveling at between 55 and 60 and I think I mention these #'s.

With your better aerodynamics you should be able to break 40mpg this summer if you keep your speeds down a bit.

I am curious as to what kind of boost #s and exhaust temp you see at highway speeds. In my sonoma at 70mph i get 5-6 pounds of boost and about 550 on the exhaust temp. The engine does not even register any boost at 55mph like there is no load on the engine but seems to build boost quickly above that speed. I did fill up for the first time and got 31mpg with mostly tollway and in traffic driving. Hoping to get better once it warms up but am still fighting some vibration issues.

I can tell I should get better mileage going slower but I drive in a lot of chicago traffic which for me makes going slow a challenge. I am debating either buying larger rear tires( I need to replace them anyway) I currently have 235/55/16 and thought about a 235/60/16 or 225/60/16. Running the grimmjeeper gear calculator with my current tires and 3.08 gears I am turning 70mph~2050rpm
75mph~2150rpm. I would like to lower that 150 to 200 rpm. Other option is to change to a 2.73 rear gear.
There is definately a different sound to the engine with the timing advanced that far. To me it sounds a little strange until it comes under boost. I talked to my neighbor ( a diesel tech and cummins truck puller who actually had the right socket to remove the pump locking key) tought I could go farther yet after listening to it but for now I am calling it good until I put some more miles on it.
I tried the fuel screw in a full turn but had alot of black smoke on accel and knew I was just wasting fuel. So settled on half a tun in for now.

Handy neighbor to have!

Is the vibration rpm dependent? Since it's been so cold around here (-10 F air temp this morning) my rubber mounts are hard enough that I have vibes at idle, but above ~1000 rpm's it smooths out. At temps above ~20F the rubber mounts are soft enough that even at idle the vibes are controlled pretty well.

Did you get your rubber mounts or are you still using the stiff mounts? What style are they?

I can tell I should get better mileage going slower but I drive in a lot of chicago traffic which for me makes going slow a challenge. I am debating either buying larger rear tires( I need to replace them anyway) I currently have 235/55/16 and thought about a 235/60/16 or 225/60/16. Running the grimmjeeper gear calculator with my current tires and 3.08 gears I am turning 70mph~2050rpm
75mph~2150rpm. I would like to lower that 150 to 200 rpm. Other option is to change to a 2.73 rear gear.
There is definately a different sound to the engine with the timing advanced that far. To me it sounds a little strange until it comes under boost. I talked to my neighbor ( a diesel tech and cummins truck puller who actually had the right socket to remove the pump locking key) tought I could go farther yet after listening to it but for now I am calling it good until I put some more miles on it.
I tried the fuel screw in a full turn but had alot of black smoke on accel and knew I was just wasting fuel. So settled on half a tun in for now.

I have rubber mounts installed now. They are old style small block chevy mounts. I used them because they bolted in the truck and are low profile. The vibrations are pretty bad at idle but are almost non existent at 70-75mph. At idle I think the engine is vibrating enough to rub something. I need to get the truck back up on jack stands to look around. I had abolt rubbing near the engine mount and thought that was it. It helped but still not as smooth as I want it. I am so tight on space near the oil pan area that I may need to clearance a few more things to make enough room with the softer mounts.

I'm also curious about the black smoke with the fuel screw turned up. Is this a new or used engine? I ended up turning the fuel screw up to the point where the rpm's started floating and had to back it down, but I never had black smoke issues. Even with the bigger holes in the modified injectors I'm running there isn't black smoke at full throttle and my EGT's don't get above ~1100 F. What were your EGT's and boost like when you were seeing black smoke? Is your EGT probe on the front 2 or back 2 cylinders (mine's in the hole on the front two cylinders)? I'm a little confused on why there's different behavior of our engines.

Ahhh, do you have an intercooler on yours? I wasn't thinking about that difference . . .

The engine was brand new never used. Black smoke was only on acceleration and would clean up after a few seconds. I am looking for mileage so did not think that would be a good setting. With the fuel screw up a full turn my rpm would start hanging also. If I start at about 40mph in 5th gear and go to full throttle I will see a light haze from the tail pipe for a few seconds and will not break 1000 deg exhaust temp. Usually see 13-14lbs of boost. I have no wast gate it was damaged when the engine was shipped to me so it is currently held shut with a large spring. I will have to take a look at the exhaust manifold dont remember which port I used for the egt

OK, I was thinking you were describing lots of black smoke instead of a haze. I also see a puff of smoke when I shift if I stomp the accelerator as it takes an instant for the turbo to spool up. My VW does that as well.

I do not have an intercooler on my engine. Once I got it running and saw the actual boost levels and exhaust temp, which leads me to believe I am not putting much load on the engine, I did not see the need for one.

TDI,

I never did see, are you making your own Biodiesel, or buying it? Have you done any analysis of how soon you conversion will pay for itself?
Thanks
Theron

3.3,

If you are looking for maximum mileage you'll want to stay below 1600rpm (peak torque/min BSFC@full load) at cruise or even lower.

I haven't seen a BSFC plot for the 3.3 but judging qualitativly from other plots I've seen; in order to stay on the minimum BSFC "island" at partial load you need to run the engine at somewhat less than the peak torque point (1600 rpm in this instance).

If you look at the graph below it is BMEP(Torque/Displacement)vs RPM with the "Islands" representing BSFC. The red dashed lines are constant horsepower lines (since HP = (TxRPM)/5252, as RPM goes up Torque must come down). So lets say the upper red line is 100 hp and the lower one is 35 hp. If you put out 35hp at 2100 rpm your BSFC is about 240, but if you put out 35hp at 1500 rpm it's only 210

2.73 gears would be a good start, maybe even 2.41 if you can get them.

The only problem with such a tall ratio is that the clutch (and trasmission for that matter) is going to see more torque load and you might lose some low end acceleration, although with the amount of low end torque the 3.3 has the acceleration may not be an issue.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b195/motoboymatt/TDI.jpg

I've been making biodiesel (for my off road garden tractor of course) for a little over 3 yrs now. I'd been buying professionally made stuff for about 4 years before that. It was biodiesel that actually got me into diesel's and why we bought our 2001 VW TDI 7+ years ago.

I did the swap more for a hobby/challenge/environmental/education/personal development type of thing. Wasn't really looking at it from a financial investment point of view. I could've bought a lot of $4/gal fuel for what I've put into this hobby.

TDI,

I never did see, are you making your own Biodiesel, or buying it? Have you done any analysis of how soon you conversion will pay for itself?
Thanks
Theron

I'm very familiar with that graph (I'm a VW TDI nut as well) and looked a long time to try to find something like that for the B3.3T (I wish all engines had this type of graph because it is sooo revealing). I've only found 3 data points for the B3.3T: 1400, 1600, 2600 rpm and these are at max load. Of these the 1400 rpm point is the lowest BSFC (it's shown on the flickr photo site) so I agree with your suggestion of keeping rpm's down. I think at one point in this thread I'd mentioned I thought my fuel mileage was better in 4th gear at ~2000 rpm's for my back and forth to work commute. After going back and analyzing my fuel log I think it was more of an issue of favorable weather conditions during the tests than it was of the actual improved thermal effficiency of the engine.

For the last year I've been keeping the rpm's in the 1400-1600 rpm band as much as possible and I'm extremely pleased with the fuel economy. I'm still waiting to see what B3.3Sonoma's mpg's are like since he's advanced his pump's timing a little more than I have. If he's got good results I may have to bump mine a little more as well.

I'm pretty happy with the gearing I've got right now. On a more aerodynamic vehicle I could see going to a lower gear ratio, but this would really cause problems with the jeep when trying to do 70+ mph on the freeway into a stiff headwind. The amount of power required to overcome this situation is astonishing. Right now I can keep it in overdrive while doing 70 into a 30+ mph headwind up slight hills in the winter, but it's taking all the engine has to give in these situations. If I calculate the hp requirements for a stock jeep just for the aerodynamics (rho ~1.24, 70 mph + 30mph headwind = 100mph) I need ~ 120hp. That's not counting drivetrain loss/rolling resistance! Right now the engine can give me this at ~2000 rpm which is where I'm at in overdirve. If my gear ratio was lower I'd have to be doing more shifting on the interstate and that would irritate me :)


3.3,

If you are looking for maximum mileage you'll want to stay below 1600rpm (peak torque/min BSFC@full load) at cruise or even lower.

I haven't seen a BSFC plot for the 3.3 but judging qualitativly from other plots I've seen; in order to stay on the minimum BSFC "island" at partial load you need to run the engine at somewhat less than the peak torque point (1600 rpm in this instance).

If you look at the graph below it is BMEP(Torque/Displacement)vs RPM with the "Islands" representing BSFC. The red dashed lines are constant horsepower lines (since HP = (TxRPM)/5252, as RPM goes up Torque must come down). So lets say the upper red line is 100 hp and the lower one is 35 hp. If you put out 35hp at 2100 rpm your BSFC is about 240, but if you put out 35hp at 1500 rpm it's only 210

2.73 gears would be a good start, maybe even 2.41 if you can get them.

The only problem with such a tall ratio is that the clutch (and trasmission for that matter) is going to see more torque load and you might lose some low end acceleration, although with the amount of low end torque the 3.3 has the acceleration may not be an issue.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b195/motoboymatt/TDI.jpg

Soooo....has anyone seen something like that for a 6BT? You all have me a little bit intrigued in what that looks like for my truck.

Not as good as the TDI graph, but I recall seeing BSFC data for the 305/555 engine when it first came out and remember being astonished at how efficient it was. My memory is a bit fuzzy on this but I recall it having a lower BSFC at it's optimum point than the VW TDI but I can't find the info now.

Soooo....has anyone seen something like that for a 6BT? You all have me a little bit intrigued in what that looks like for my truck.

http://www.chaunceycreekboats.com/pdf/Cummins%20QSB%205.9%20380hp.pdf

This isn't what I remember seeing but shows some data for different versions of the QSB5.9 for marine applications (I don't know if this is a good comparison to our truck engines or not). Data for 2000-3000 rpm's are shown. Interestingly the best BSFC occurs between 2400-2600 rpm's for most of these variants. The 305hp version has a min of .343 lb/hp-hr at 2400 rpm and the 330hp has a min of .340 lb/hp-hr 2600 rpm.

Do you ever run B100 in the jeep? I am trying to get an idea of what % home made diesel(wvo/meth) can run in the 3.3 without detrimental effects. Completely new to the this. I love diesel motors, but I have to make it work $$ wise at some point, otherwise the wife will nix the idea from the beginning.
In an XJ, I am assuming the fuel mileage would be similar to your set-up. Maybe better, but for cost analysis standpoint, I am figuring 28-30. Right now I get 16-20 in jeep. the percentage of non- pump diesel used makes a huge difference when calculating the yrs to pay for the diesel motor. Just trying to demonstrate my need for some numbers of similar vehicles.

As far as i know, there aren't any biodiesel stores around here, so I'm looking at mixing homebrew with pump diesel. Hence my questions about what percentage you mix the bio with petro. Thanks for your time. Hope I wasn't too confusing.


I've been making biodiesel (for my off road garden tractor of course) for a little over 3 yrs now. I'd been buying professionally made stuff for about 4 years before that. It was biodiesel that actually got me into diesel's and why we bought our 2001 VW TDI 7+ years ago.

I did the swap more for a hobby/challenge/environmental/education/personal development type of thing. Wasn't really looking at it from a financial investment point of view. I could've bought a lot of $4/gal fuel for what I've put into this hobby.

TDI,

I've been searching for the B3.3 BSFC map as well, apparently Cummins keeps pretty tight tabs on them. It's frustrating because you would think they'd want to show off how efficient their engines are. I've been wanting to put a diesel in my S10 for a year and a half now, about a year ago I saw the QSB3.3 in Diesel Progress and was really impressed by it's BSFC, a google search led me to your Jeep thread. According to my data an S10 is about 35% more aerodynamic than a wrangler. So if a jeep can do 30 mpg an S10 should have no problem with 40mpg which is my goal.

Sonoma's posts have confirmed what I estimated with my measurements, alot of modification is needed to shoehorn a 3.3 into a 2wd S10. I'm trying to find a 4x4 with a blown engine. I plan to remove the front axle and replace it with a custom crossmember and leave the transmission in it's stock location. I might have to remove the SAE bellhousing and create a custom adapter to keep the package short enough.

Looking back at my mileage log shows I'm typically in the 70-90% biodiesel concentrations during the summers (Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing . . . biodiesel is a chemically different molecule than what you get from mixing wvo with methanol -- it's methyl esters where you chemically remove the glycerin molecule from the three fatty acid chains and attach the methanol molecule to the heads of those fatty acid chains and discard the glycerin). I've reported oil analysis and shown pictures of the orginal injectors that experienced this type of concentration of biodiesel. You can interpret the data as you see fit.

I would encourage you to look at this as a hobby. There's a lot of things that could go wrong and I would hate for you to get into bad graces with your wife or the government regarding this experiment. If you can't afford to pursue this as a hobby you should probably not be pursuing it. Just my opinion. . .


Do you ever run B100 in the jeep? I am trying to get an idea of what % home made diesel(wvo/meth) can run in the 3.3 without detrimental effects. Completely new to the this. I love diesel motors, but I have to make it work $$ wise at some point, otherwise the wife will nix the idea from the beginning.
In an XJ, I am assuming the fuel mileage would be similar to your set-up. Maybe better, but for cost analysis standpoint, I am figuring 28-30. Right now I get 16-20 in jeep. the percentage of non- pump diesel used makes a huge difference when calculating the yrs to pay for the diesel motor. Just trying to demonstrate my need for some numbers of similar vehicles.

As far as i know, there aren't any biodiesel stores around here, so I'm looking at mixing homebrew with pump diesel. Hence my questions about what percentage you mix the bio with petro. Thanks for your time. Hope I wasn't too confusing.

Interesting thought on the exhaust clamp. Sorry I'm no help on that.

I had similiar thoughts on the flywheel. I think this is why I went with the lightweight flywheel even though it had a balancing weight. I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts on the long term impact this will have. Since I rarely spin the engine above ~2200 rpm's and it's internals are so heavy compared to the little flywheel, is it a problem? If there's a problem with imbalance would it show up in oil analysis as excess wear metals?

Well guys I took the plunge also. Picked up my 3.3 this week, adapters from Phoenix Castings came in this week. I may have some Ideas as to why there is a difference in the way your two engines are running at idle. If your engine came with the deep SAE 4 flywheel housing the flywheel is larger 55 lbs. If your engine has the shallow SAE 4 (aluminum) housing the flywheel weight is 39 lbs. I am thinking that the less rotating mass the rougher your idle will be. Which makes since, I am not going to break out the Physics book, a large rotating mass takes more energy to get moving and to slow down (during idle it would be the compression and combustion strokes).Which means that the smaller flywheel should be the roughest at idle and should accelerate a little faster. 3.3 Sonoma, in your case instead of getting the lightest flywheel available maybe you should go a little heavier.

I am gong to try to shoot in-between you two. I am using all Chrysler and right now I am going to use a V6 flywheel.

Macet,

How much did you give for the 3.3 and adapters? Also, is this still the rotary pump 3.3 or the common rail version...

With what Marco has been doing with his Smarty for the 5.9 common rails, I would love to get a 3.3 QSB (I think that is the common rail version) and have Marco come up with tunes for it using a Smarty (wishful thinking I know).