anyone know about heat pumps?
11-25-2005, 01:53 PM
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anyone know about heat pumps?
mine just up and quit. the unit is 8 years old and the tech that came out told me within 2 minutes of testing wire that the compressor is shot and that i am better off just replacing the whole unit for $5500 and the compressor would cost the same. i just can't believe that. it's an american standard/trane packaged heat pump WCC-UP-14A anyone who has any thoughts would be great, i really appreciate it.
11-25-2005, 02:06 PM
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and maybe someone is better at finding info on the internet than me... the compressor model number is BH223-CC1-GA and serial # is L271YNUE
11-25-2005, 02:20 PM
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Problems I have had with heat pumps:
Breakers trip like nobodys business.... even if they do not look like they are.
Fuses blow out in the disconnect like nobodys business.....
Fins on outdoor unit get frozen up causing compressor to overheat and die...
Thats about all I remember from the heat pump that once was here.
mmmmmmmmm propane.
My $0.019
Breakers trip like nobodys business.... even if they do not look like they are.
Fuses blow out in the disconnect like nobodys business.....
Fins on outdoor unit get frozen up causing compressor to overheat and die...
Thats about all I remember from the heat pump that once was here.
mmmmmmmmm propane.
My $0.019
11-25-2005, 03:26 PM
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If the compressor is locked up and it is pulling ( locked rotor amps ) which can easily be tested in about 2 minutes. Then about 9 times out of 10 you are better off replacing the whole unit than replacing the compressor itself with the cost of the compressor and the labor you are going to be about the same money as a new unit. I have been in the heating and air bussiness 14 years. After all I have seen I have found that the more expensive the unit is doesn't always make it better trane lennox and carrier alot of what u pay for on these units is the big time advertising they do. my .02 anyway. pm me if you need any other help. Andy
11-25-2005, 04:42 PM
#6
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You might consider checking a little deeper as Trane typically has a 10 year warranty on the compressor. Said warranty doesn't include the labor involved with the replacement.
Figure 4 to 6 hours for the labor.
If the compressor burned (as compared to a mechanical failure),there will be a little more labor and parts with cleaning up the system.
The typical scenario would be:
Recover/reclaim refrigerant. If the compressor burned, then you'll end up getting new refrigerant as most field techs don't have filtering/clean-up equipment (this is not to be confused with the actual recovery equipment).
If the compressor died of a mechanical failure (broken valves, crankshaft, etc), The original refrigerant can be reused with no problems.
Purge refrigerant circuit with dry nitrogen. This is done for a couple of good reasons, both being equally important. The nitrogen excludes any oxygen from the refrigerant circuit so that when any torch-work is done, any refrigeration oil coating the insides of the plumbing won't be able to ignite and possibly cause an explosion, and most importantly in light of the repair, the lack of oxygen won't allow the copper piping to form scale on the interior during the high temperatures involved in the torch-work (1400* ~ 1800*). The scale will end up plugging the refrigerant metering orifices and wreck the bearings of the new compressor, etc.
Replace compressor. * This includes the rubber mounting isolators. Checking the wiring terminations for burnt connectors and replacing them if found toasted. Installing the supplied electrical section cover.
The compressor oil should be checked for acid content. All the oil in the dead compressor should be drained into a container for measuring the quantity. Comparing this to the manufacturers spec, oil will need to be removed from the new compressor so that in the end, you'll have the correct volume of oil.
Installing a new liquid line filter/dryer *. This is typically a ceramic micron range strainer (molecular sieve) and a chemical desiccant dryer. This is installed only in the liquid refrigerant line, just after the condenser coil. Its purpose is to collect any particulate matter from the former compressor's dying fit. Such trash might include metal fines, wax, etc. The drying component would adsorb any water, acids, etc, that may have formed during a burn-out. Installing it in the mentioned location assures the refrigerant metering device (thermostatic expansion valve, metering orifice, etc) don't get stopped up.
Installing a suction line filter/dryer *. In most cases, this isn't required if there was no burn out. It's purpose is the same as the liquid line filter/dryer adding protection for the new compressor from any acids/water/particulate matter. If this was a burn out, then after the new compressor has run for about 24 hours, the pressure drop across the filter should be checked, with the filter being replaced if the pressure drop exceeds 3psig. Hand in hand, the acid content should be checked, if it's still high, replace the filters.
Once the system presents as being acid/moisture free, the suction line filter dryer is removed without replacement.
* The above steps are to be done only after the plumbing is again purged with dry nitrogen.
Pressure test the completed torch work with 125psig of dry nitrogen. Smack the new torch work with a wrench. It should hold steady for 10 minutes, if not there's a leak.
Evacuate/dehydrate refrigerant circuit. Using a quality vacuum pump with new oil, impose a vacuum of 500 microns or less. A micron gage MUST be used for this as no other means will show that low a vacuum. Upon getting to this level introduce clean refrigerant to the systems high side (ideally in the hot gas line). Bring the pressure up to 0psig. Now apply the vacuum to the low side (ideally at the compressors suction inlet). Pull the system down to 500 microns. This sweeping action will help remove any non-condensible gasses and moisture. This is to be done three (3) times. Upon completing the final sweep, valve off the vacuum pump and monitor the micron gage for ten minutes or so. It should not rise much above 500 microns (>600 microns). If the vacuum rises to say, 2500 microns and stops, you've still got some moisture in there (at this deep a vacuum, water boils around 74*F). If the vacuum continues to rise to atmosphere, you've got a leak.
Install refrigerant The best method is simply looking at the systems nameplate and putting in the correct amount by weight.
While you're watching the vacuum pump work,
Test the compressors run capacitor (and start capacitor / start relay if applicable). It should present within 10% of the rated value. If not, replace.
Don't get suckered into buying a hard-start. If you've run 8 years without it, you don't need it unless there's proven issues with your power company having substantial voltage drops.
NOTE: The better service companies won't warrant the work if they can't install new capacitors as in this case, it's cheap insurance.
Final notes,
Check and clean the condenser coil (the one outside). If it's plugged with dirt, bird feathers, grass clippings, clean it. If it's a double layered coil (common) you may have to open the cabinet enough to allow the coil to be separated to effectively clean the inner most coil. If this coil is stopped up, you're blocking a lot of the airflow resulting in much higher operating pressures that will cost energy dollars, reduce the systems cooling capacity, and shorten the compressor's running life
Check and clean the evaporator coil (the inside one). If it's plugged, you risk having liquid freon return to the compressor. The can kill the compressor by diluting / washing out the compressor oil. It can also kill the compressor as you can't compress a liquid. Something will break.
Insure the indoor air flow is of the correct volume. Too little airflow (stopped up coil, too restrictive of an air filter) will not present enough heat to the boiling freon to allow it all to boil off before returning to the compressor. Again, you can't compress a liquid.
IMO, a tech who doesn't do all the above at a minimum, . . . . .sucks.
A heat-pump is merely a reversible air conditioner. An air conditioner is mearly a one-way heat-pump. All the same components with the added reversing valve and defrost controls.
It's very normal for the outdoor coil to frost during the heating season. If the coil stays heavily frosted, or just plain iced over, then there's a issue with the defrost control. When the system is in the defrost mode, it's normal for the outdoor fan to stop running, and you seeing steam rise from the machine. It's just melting off the ice.
I didn't realize how long winded this was getting. Sorry about that.
This in no way covers all that may be involved with your mess. There's most likely some smaller details I've inadvertently left out, but hey! There's a text limit per post.
Hope this helps.
Figure 4 to 6 hours for the labor.
If the compressor burned (as compared to a mechanical failure),there will be a little more labor and parts with cleaning up the system.
The typical scenario would be:
Recover/reclaim refrigerant. If the compressor burned, then you'll end up getting new refrigerant as most field techs don't have filtering/clean-up equipment (this is not to be confused with the actual recovery equipment).
If the compressor died of a mechanical failure (broken valves, crankshaft, etc), The original refrigerant can be reused with no problems.
Purge refrigerant circuit with dry nitrogen. This is done for a couple of good reasons, both being equally important. The nitrogen excludes any oxygen from the refrigerant circuit so that when any torch-work is done, any refrigeration oil coating the insides of the plumbing won't be able to ignite and possibly cause an explosion, and most importantly in light of the repair, the lack of oxygen won't allow the copper piping to form scale on the interior during the high temperatures involved in the torch-work (1400* ~ 1800*). The scale will end up plugging the refrigerant metering orifices and wreck the bearings of the new compressor, etc.
Replace compressor. * This includes the rubber mounting isolators. Checking the wiring terminations for burnt connectors and replacing them if found toasted. Installing the supplied electrical section cover.
The compressor oil should be checked for acid content. All the oil in the dead compressor should be drained into a container for measuring the quantity. Comparing this to the manufacturers spec, oil will need to be removed from the new compressor so that in the end, you'll have the correct volume of oil.
Installing a new liquid line filter/dryer *. This is typically a ceramic micron range strainer (molecular sieve) and a chemical desiccant dryer. This is installed only in the liquid refrigerant line, just after the condenser coil. Its purpose is to collect any particulate matter from the former compressor's dying fit. Such trash might include metal fines, wax, etc. The drying component would adsorb any water, acids, etc, that may have formed during a burn-out. Installing it in the mentioned location assures the refrigerant metering device (thermostatic expansion valve, metering orifice, etc) don't get stopped up.
Installing a suction line filter/dryer *. In most cases, this isn't required if there was no burn out. It's purpose is the same as the liquid line filter/dryer adding protection for the new compressor from any acids/water/particulate matter. If this was a burn out, then after the new compressor has run for about 24 hours, the pressure drop across the filter should be checked, with the filter being replaced if the pressure drop exceeds 3psig. Hand in hand, the acid content should be checked, if it's still high, replace the filters.
Once the system presents as being acid/moisture free, the suction line filter dryer is removed without replacement.
* The above steps are to be done only after the plumbing is again purged with dry nitrogen.
Pressure test the completed torch work with 125psig of dry nitrogen. Smack the new torch work with a wrench. It should hold steady for 10 minutes, if not there's a leak.
Evacuate/dehydrate refrigerant circuit. Using a quality vacuum pump with new oil, impose a vacuum of 500 microns or less. A micron gage MUST be used for this as no other means will show that low a vacuum. Upon getting to this level introduce clean refrigerant to the systems high side (ideally in the hot gas line). Bring the pressure up to 0psig. Now apply the vacuum to the low side (ideally at the compressors suction inlet). Pull the system down to 500 microns. This sweeping action will help remove any non-condensible gasses and moisture. This is to be done three (3) times. Upon completing the final sweep, valve off the vacuum pump and monitor the micron gage for ten minutes or so. It should not rise much above 500 microns (>600 microns). If the vacuum rises to say, 2500 microns and stops, you've still got some moisture in there (at this deep a vacuum, water boils around 74*F). If the vacuum continues to rise to atmosphere, you've got a leak.
Install refrigerant The best method is simply looking at the systems nameplate and putting in the correct amount by weight.
While you're watching the vacuum pump work,
Test the compressors run capacitor (and start capacitor / start relay if applicable). It should present within 10% of the rated value. If not, replace.
Don't get suckered into buying a hard-start. If you've run 8 years without it, you don't need it unless there's proven issues with your power company having substantial voltage drops.
NOTE: The better service companies won't warrant the work if they can't install new capacitors as in this case, it's cheap insurance.
Final notes,
Check and clean the condenser coil (the one outside). If it's plugged with dirt, bird feathers, grass clippings, clean it. If it's a double layered coil (common) you may have to open the cabinet enough to allow the coil to be separated to effectively clean the inner most coil. If this coil is stopped up, you're blocking a lot of the airflow resulting in much higher operating pressures that will cost energy dollars, reduce the systems cooling capacity, and shorten the compressor's running life
Check and clean the evaporator coil (the inside one). If it's plugged, you risk having liquid freon return to the compressor. The can kill the compressor by diluting / washing out the compressor oil. It can also kill the compressor as you can't compress a liquid. Something will break.
Insure the indoor air flow is of the correct volume. Too little airflow (stopped up coil, too restrictive of an air filter) will not present enough heat to the boiling freon to allow it all to boil off before returning to the compressor. Again, you can't compress a liquid.
IMO, a tech who doesn't do all the above at a minimum, . . . . .sucks.
A heat-pump is merely a reversible air conditioner. An air conditioner is mearly a one-way heat-pump. All the same components with the added reversing valve and defrost controls.
It's very normal for the outdoor coil to frost during the heating season. If the coil stays heavily frosted, or just plain iced over, then there's a issue with the defrost control. When the system is in the defrost mode, it's normal for the outdoor fan to stop running, and you seeing steam rise from the machine. It's just melting off the ice.
I didn't realize how long winded this was getting. Sorry about that.
This in no way covers all that may be involved with your mess. There's most likely some smaller details I've inadvertently left out, but hey! There's a text limit per post.
Hope this helps.
11-25-2005, 04:50 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by Micaiahfied
mine just up and quit. the unit is 8 years old and the tech that came out told me within 2 minutes of testing wire that the compressor is shot and that i am better off just replacing the whole unit for $5500 and the compressor would cost the same. i just can't believe that. it's an american standard/trane packaged heat pump WCC-UP-14A anyone who has any thoughts would be great, i really appreciate it.
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11-25-2005, 06:00 PM
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i sent a few of you guys PM's durasmack the guy quoted me on propane as well, thought the unit would be less... it ended up being within $100 of the heat pump, and then i would have to buy a tank and fill it on top of that.... not that i am counting it out, but i am still praying that i can get it fixed.... geico266, i hope i can do what you did.
11-25-2005, 06:20 PM
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thanks ace... i missed what he was saying... i thought he meant when purchasing a new unit.... but he was talking about the exsiting unit... any idea where i check to see what the warranty is?
11-25-2005, 06:29 PM
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this doesn't make sense to me the house is only 8 years old (we bought it about 1.5 years ago) the paperwork on the unit says september 1992. now i don't know when the warranty would start, but as far as i know the unit was brand new when it was put on the house. the other sheet that was located in the unit (all printed nothing hand writen) says aug 1993. found the compressor for $884.... any idea if it would then be worth it to replace just that?
11-25-2005, 07:29 PM
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you would need the model and serial number of the ( compressor itself ) then u would need to talk the dealer and have then run that number for u and they will be able to tell you if it is under warranty. replacing the compressor is a 50 50 shot on if the rest of unit going to hold up or if it is also on it's last leg and going to nickle and dime you death. 6 of one half dozen of the other on if you should invest that money towards a new unit or not. Like BC said it depends on how it went out on how expensive it will be to replace.
11-25-2005, 07:39 PM
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i pm'ed this, but is replacing the whole unit something i could do myself... i have been looking at www.Wholesaleac.com
11-25-2005, 08:30 PM
#14
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If you're handy with all the trades involved (plumbing, electrical, refrigeration, mechanical, sheetmetal), have the correct tools, and could keep it all within your local and national codes (if only for your families sake, never mind the resale of the home ~ see code), . . . . then yes.
Assuming a similar system (tonnage, electric power demands, in the case of a heat-pump; the auxiliary strip heat requirements, if you're switching to gas, then consider the plumbing.
It's pretty much making the transition from the existing ductwork (supply and return) to the new units outlet/inlet. Keeping it all in code, correctly connect the electric power supply and thermostat. All the industry standards apply (electrical colors, thermostat colors, etc).
Be sure to level the system and cover all the transition ductwork with a weatherproof housing. Effectively seal the houses ductwork penetration against ground water and rodents.
A simple replacement of a packaged unit (gas-pack, heat-pump, whatever), it's mostly grunt work. The factory's done all the technical stuff. You've just got to plug it in so to speak.
BC
Assuming a similar system (tonnage, electric power demands, in the case of a heat-pump; the auxiliary strip heat requirements, if you're switching to gas, then consider the plumbing.
It's pretty much making the transition from the existing ductwork (supply and return) to the new units outlet/inlet. Keeping it all in code, correctly connect the electric power supply and thermostat. All the industry standards apply (electrical colors, thermostat colors, etc).
Be sure to level the system and cover all the transition ductwork with a weatherproof housing. Effectively seal the houses ductwork penetration against ground water and rodents.
A simple replacement of a packaged unit (gas-pack, heat-pump, whatever), it's mostly grunt work. The factory's done all the technical stuff. You've just got to plug it in so to speak.
BC
11-25-2005, 08:33 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by Micaiahfied
i pm'ed this, but is replacing the whole unit something i could do myself... i have been looking at www.Wholesaleac.com