With fuel prices rising faster than I can afford these days I have been all ears to alternative fuels. I have done some reasearch on bio-diesel but it seems to have a few drawbacks. 1) You have to find someone that sells the unit and info to make it, which isnt cheap, and 2) You have to get the raw material from local restaurants. Now I dont know how many of you have ever worked at a restaurant but I have and that stuff is a thick, gooey, stinky mess that you dont want to get on you or inside your truck. And usually its keep in 50 gallon drums or large rectangular bins that are lifted into trucks with a hoist. So I dont really see where or how you are supposed to get enough dirty oil to make it worth your while and stay clean or where you are going to store all that smelly garbage while you refine it? They keep it behind restaurants for a reason. I have also heard that it gells very easily since its vegetable based and I know someone that drives for Interstate and they are instructed NOT to ever use it in the company trucks, for whatever reason. Oh yea, your truck smells like a french fryer while your cruising down the road.
Next, then I was told by someone that they go down to their local transmission shop and take the auto tranny fluid for free, sift it through a fine filter untill its clean then pour it in their Cummins. Said if there is a problem then he puts a couple of gallons of diesel in the tank and all is good. Now I dont know how good that stuff can be since it has detergents in it. But like I said earlier, I will listen to just about anything if it means saving money.

Do a search on biodiesel, you will find lots of good info. Try www.biolyle.com or
www.journeytoforever.org You don't really need the huge, expensive equipment until you get really serious. I have been planning to make some, and I even got hold of about 20 gal. of used veg oil from my friend with a Chinese restaurant. Asian food restaurants are supposed to yield the best quality oil, and fast food burger chains are the worst. The most expensive ingredient, I believe, is the methanol. After the refining process, the oil is quite harmless to the engine. Using straight waste oil (not refining it to biodiesel) can be done, but it requires modifications to your vehicle.

From what I've read here, ATF shouldn't be used as it has additives to keep it from burning completely and would cause trouble. I saw a thread here recently stating many people would add a couple gallons of used engine oil to a full tank of fuel, and nobody has mentioned any problems. I wouldn't use it straight though. Hope this helps.

The friction modifiers in atf would not be good for your injector pump. The days of dumping ATF in the tank are long gone. Years ago, I believe ATF was completely different and Injector pumps didnt have the close tolerances they have nowadays.

The 12V's can run on a variety of fuels.

I know, I know ... Here I am again pushing WVO. It is not really like you painted it to be, I have run it for a year now in a 96 without any major problems. If you really are interested check out these sites; http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=frm&s=447609751&f=159605551 at least read the first two stickys at the top.
Then look at: http://www.frybrid.com/test.htm There is a real good forum here.
You can always email questions to me, I have some schematics for a 12 valver, just ask and I'll send them on to ya. e-address in profile.
Ken Gardner

OK, so I plan to filter waste fryer oil thru a 2 micron filter and mix it in with the petro diesel in my tank. I haven't figured out a good ratio yet, but each gallon of fryer oil I can use is a gallon less petro diesel I have to buy.


I'll keep an eye on the pyrometer while I expereiment.

Anyone have any suggestions about a safe ratio of petro diesel to fryer oil?

Any cautions to look for?

The truck is a 2001 Dodge/Cummins.

DOE ( Dept. of Energy ) has been doing bio-diesel research for sometime now.

Excellent page on their website.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/biodiesel/

This is a piece from it:

The solvent property of biodiesel can cause other fuel-system problems. Biodiesel may be incompatible with the seals used in the fuel systems of older vehicles and machinery, necessitating the replacement of those parts if biodiesel blends are used. The initial use of B20 or B100 in any vehicle or machine requires care. Petroleum diesel forms deposits in vehicular fuel systems, and because biodiesel can loosen those deposits, they can migrate and clog fuel lines and filters.

OK, so I plan to filter waste fryer oil thru a 2 micron filter and mix it in with the petro diesel in my tank. I haven't figured out a good ratio yet, but each gallon of fryer oil I can use is a gallon less petro diesel I have to buy.


I'll keep an eye on the pyrometer while I expereiment.

Anyone have any suggestions about a safe ratio of petro diesel to fryer oil?

Any cautions to look for?

The truck is a 2001 Dodge/Cummins.

I don't believe this is a very good idea. The cold VO even though it is mixed with diesel can quickly distroy your engine. Also, on that truck I think there is an issue with the lift pump and the thicker fuel it will be pumping. Is it a VP44 injector pump? If so you will definately have lift pump trouble and that can KILL the IP real fast.
Why not put a heated two tank setup on this truck and advoid the troubles associated with burning cold VO?
Just my thoughts, but I think you need to some more research on this idea.
Ken

I am putting a circulating coolant heater on my truck when I flush the radiator this weekend. I am also looking at running tubing from the trucks coolant system into the aux tank in the bed and using it for WVO that will then be pumped to the factory tank to blend with the pump diesel. There is a 1500 watt circulating heater I am going to get that runs off 110. Then once the truck is running, warm coolant will continue to flow through the tubing into the aux tank to keep it from gelling or clouding.

I found a fitting that will screw into my passenger side filler neck that I can put the tubing to. I contemplated lifting the aux tank and put a couple of battery blankets under it but that would only help when they are plugged in.

Back to the lab.

[laugh]

I found this site that claims similar success with cooking oil except not having to go through the bio-diesel stages. It seems alot easier, but then again, could easier really be better? Any feedback would be appreciated.

Bio is not that hard. The equipment is not that expensive, the process can be done in 24 hours or less from start to finish. The most expensive component is the methanol. My cost is about 80 cents a gallon to make.

My processor is an old 100lb. propane tank. My wash vessel is a plastic drum, my dry vessel is a plastic drum. I use a Harbour frieght pump, some metal pipe, fittings and valves. If don't or can't weld, an electric hot water heater can be used as a processor.

I'm not knocking WVO, but it is a little more complicated than you may think. I agree, viscosity is an issue, and injection pumps do not like thick oil, good advice. Filtering to 2 microns will require a serois pump, and you filter will become clogged in short order. Most who use wvo use a series of filters, and some heat. The problem with heat is, during filtering, if warm, the oil gets thinner, and will flow thru the filter better, but when you get to ambient temps ahain, guess what, it won't flow becouse it is now thicker.

If you run wvo, go with the tried and proven method of 2 tank system, using a heat exchanger in the secondary tank so the coolant from the engine will warm the oil, which reduces the viscosity. You still have to filter it, and others have better info than I do for this.

Heating the oil prior to leaving the house seems a hassle, when you can start the truck, after a few minutes of warm coolant warming the oil, switch tank over to wvo, run that till about 5 minutes before you get to your destination, and switch back to reg. diesel.

BTW, when I make bio, other then pouring the oil thru a window screen when I collect it, the only filtering I do is when it gets pumped into my truck. I use an el cheapo automotive spin on oil filter and that is it! That oil filter has lasted thru countless gallons of bio. The entire biodiesel process cleans the oil really well.

One last thing, the glycerin that you get from the transesterification process (the left over waste) is nasty looking stuff, if you looked at a bucket of this you would say wow that goes into my engine? The answer is no if you run bio, yes if you run wvo.

Don't want to get into a wvo vs. biodiesel debate, but I really did my homework on this for months and decided bio was the way to go. Ever try to sell a truck that was converted to run on veg oil? The person buying will look at that as say hmmmm.

Also see this thread for lots of links:http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?t=76617

Hey kd460, this is the website I was talking about. Let me know what you think as it seems you have alot of experience in this area: http://dieselsecret.com/index.htm

I fully agree with you kd, especially running WVO though a 24 valve's weak fuel system.
Even with 2 micron filtering there are dissolved nasties like sugar and salt that will make it though. Once these residues meet the heat of combustion I'm sure they take on a different form that is most likely unburnable. Making carmel from heating sugar comes to mind. A rig may run just fine on WVO for tens of thousands of miles but I feel it will seriously reduce engine longevity in the end.
Processing the WVO into BD really isn't that big of a deal.

OK, I'm not gonna bash dieselsecret. But, other biodieseler's with much more experience than I, (some are chemical engineer's), don't have a favorable opinion.

My question is, if it's so great, why don't they produce the fuel and sell it? Seems like they would make more money doing that then selling the secret. Seems like I read the chemical resembles "moth balls", but since it is a "secret", I don't know.

Once again, if I understand the process with diesel secret, none of the free fatty acids, glycerins, and as Infidel mentions, salts, sugars, etc get removed. It all gets sent into your combustion chamber. Nasty stuff, coking up the rings, build up in the combustion chamber, etc. Not to mention moisture in the oil, which I agree, can be removed, but, the process of prepping wvo is so close to bio, that one or two more easy steps and you have bio.

Bio cleans the fuel system, this is a fact. WVO can leave deposits in your engine, this is a concern. Many who burn wvo also run bio from time to time to help "clean" . What does that tell you?

Once again, not bashing wvo, many run it, and have no problems. I am not that brave with my truck or car. If I had an old tractor or say an old diesel beater car, sure I would have fun with it and give it a try. I would never run say a 50/50 mix of wvo and #2 by just dumping it in the tank. I would go full bore and heat the oil prior to use using a 2 tank system. But again, this would be on a spare vehicle that I did not care much about.

Hope this clears a few things up, there are MANY others out there that know TONS more than I do about all of this. They have been there and done that. The information is out there. I like to take their word for it, and benifit from their experiences (be it positive or negative). Kevin

KD460,
Tell me about your wash process. I am currently doing 3-4 washes, until the water comes out clean/clear, and over a period of time that it takes 2-3 days to do a batch. First wash, 6 hours, second wash 2-4 hours, third wash, at least 2 hours. Drying takes about 2 to 8 hours. Due to the long periods between required action by me, this process currently takes about 2-3 hours of actual labor, over 3 days.
The fuel is beautiful when it comes out, but I am looking for ways to speed up the process if I can, with minimal sacrifice to quality.

Thanks,
Chris

Stamey, sorry for the slow response. I'll try to summarize:

The freshly made bio first gets the glycerine drained out of the processor.

Then with the bio still warm from being processed, it gets pumped into my wash barrel. My wash barrel has an EQUAL amount of hot water (same amount as the quantity of bio) sitting in it before I pump the fresh bio into it.

Get the water as hot as possible. If you have a metal wash barrel, then get close to boiling. If plastic like mine, I get it to temp where the plastic feels like it won't take any more heat :rolleyes: .

The bio actually gets pumped into the water, below the water line. I have a piece of pipe connected to the hose that carries the fuel from the processor to the wash barrell. That pipe outlet rests on the bottom of my wash barrell, I then slowly pump the bio into the hot water. I have a translucent wash barrel, so I can see the globules of fuel rising from the bottom of the barrel (the pipe outlet) to the top of the water level.

Like I said, I do it slowly (10 to 15 minutes to pump about 20 gallons). When the last of the fuel is in, I let things settle for about 15 to 20 minutes, then drain off the water. You just saved yourself a days worth of bubble washing.

After the water is drained, I mist wash using a "FOGGIT" brand mister head. It is a 1/2 gallon per minute mister. It hooks right up to the end of a garden hose. I have plans to hook it up to an electric sprinkler valve and a timer, but not yet. I mist wash for about 1/2 to 2/3rds the volume of the bio, then shut off the mister.

I let things settle for about a 1/2 hour, and then repeat once or twice. You now saved another day of bubble washing.

I mist again, but this time I leave the water in there, and I then bubblewash overnight. The next morning, the fuel is dark, but cloudy from holding water. The wash water is usually clean, if not I mist one more time, then fire up the heating element, turn the bubblers off, and let things get up to about 150 degrees.

I then take the hot fuel off the water by using a standpipe (the standpipe is part of my wash barrell), and the fuel gets pumped into my dry barrell.

With the fuel still hot, I circulate the fuel (pump it) thru a filter and a sprinkler head inside the barrell. I have a fan blowing air into the barrell. The air passing over the airborne bio (airborne from the spinkler head), drys the fuel very fast. It also gets continously filtered by use of a cheap autozone autovalue oil filter (part of the circulating circuit). The fuel constantly gets pumped for awhile, exposing it to the air and the fan. I like to run the pump till the fuel is at room temp. It is usually clear within the first 30 minutes of pumping, but I like to make sure it gets to room temp incase the cloudiness returns (fuel that still has water in it will go cloudy at room temp, but look clear at higher temps-same thing for wax crystals or tallows, will be clear at elevated temps cause they are melted, but cloudy at room temp cause they are now solid)

Lets put it this way, I made a batch of fuel friday night, put it into the wash barrell saturday morning, and that fuel is crystal clear, sitting in my drying barrell, ready to go into the truck. That was at about 1200 today.

The process can go even faster if you keep the mist water hot, and the oil hot. You can knock about 12 hours off if you bring the water to a boil while the bio is sitting on top of it (kind of a boiling bubblewash), but, that takes allot of energy, and, my barrell is plastic, so I stay away from getting it to boil.

Well, I thought I would be brief, sorry I was not. HTH, Kevin

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, I use a 5% prewash before I drain off my glycerine, that saves allot of time and reduces liklihood of emulsion. I will be switching to potassium soon, and that will help even more :)

WOW! You sure have quite a system. I guess I am so amazed because I only have 3 batches under my belt. All turned out well, but took a course of 3 days because my wash barrel is also my drying barrel, and I am using bubble wash, predominantly. I have not really been looking for a mister yet, but perhaps I should.
So, you are saying that hot water washes the BD better?

What kind of heating element do you use in the wash tank? Is it specifically a submersable element, of did you adapt something for this purpose? I have a plastic one also, a white plastic 55 gall drum, and don't want to melt it. I have heard of people talking of elements but I have not seen much detail on them.

I hope to have some more WVO soon, so I can try out some of these new ideas you have given me. I actually had to go to the pump Saturday, for the first time since before Katrina. I was 300 miles from home though, so I guess that's excusable, until I get an in-bed tank.

Oh, BTW, I'm TORQUIN, instead of Stamey, on Infopop BD forums.

Thanks,
Chris

For heating the water see this:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/919605551/m/941103188

For a nice standpipe wash barrel see this:

http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?t=333

The standpipe is the piece of 3/4 inch pipe inside the barrel.Mark the outside of the barrel as to where the standpipe level is, and allow your fuel/water line to drop about a half to 3/4 of an inch below that before draining the fuel.

For a really nice setup see this:

http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?t=394

Mine is very similiar except I use a propane tank (24 gallon) for my processor. If you can find a used (freebie) electric hot water heater, you are golden. If you look at the pic of the green wash barrel, you will see the foggit brand misting head. It screws right on the end of a hose. I want to adapt it to the hot water supply from the house, and hook it up to a timer. That can be purchased here:

http://www.bonsaiofbrooklyn.com/sefogg.html?OVRAW=fogg-it%20nozzle&OVKEY=fogg%20it%20nozzle&OVMTC=standard

If you are using your wash barrel for drying as well, you should make sure you get every last bit of free water out of there before trying to dry. It makes a world of difference.

I like the separate dry barrel, so there is no chance of getting free water into it. I use a short standpipe for that as well. Just in case any water does get in there, and all the debris can settle to the bottom. The third drying barrell will increase your production as it now frees up your wash barrel for the next batch (one batch is drying while one batch is washing).

Those websites are a great source of info, so surf and search them both. They are a big help. Kevin

Hopefully I will began to grasp this.

My dumb questions


1. Can bio be ran in cold weather conditions?
2. Should the first step in making bio be to find an oil source?
3. How many gallons of fry oil to make a gallon of bio?
4. Are their any waste materials produced, and if so how do you get rid of them?
5. I am pretty sure that I understand that most vehicles newer than 92? can run on bio, but will more fuel filter changes be required?
6. Where could someone get a book with a step to step on how to make bio?


thanks alot for any help = I am a sloooow learner, but it is starting to sink in.

SHARPMACHINE, ... Here is an interesting thread over on Frybrid Forum that might help to clear a couple of questions up.
http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1663
Ken

OK, I'll try to give a quick answer:

Temp: It does gel at a higher temp. Depends on the type of oil you get. The stuff I am currently using clouds at 32 and is useless at a few degrees below that. B50 (50% bio with 50% dino diesel) gets me down to 20F. You can play with the ratios even more, you can add kerosene (like they do when they winterize dino diesel) and you can use additives. Need to know your fuel and your temps in order to be able to predict temp ranges.

Oil Source:Yes, securing a source of oil is a good first step. I need to add, secure a source of good oil. Some cooking oil is really used up and will give you low returns and allot of headaches getting it to be useable fuel. Stay away from animal fat. Veg oil is the one to get.

How much product:About 80% becomes useable fuel and 20% is glycerine waste (sort of waste as there are things that can be done with the glycerine).

Filters: Initially your fuel filter may clog sooner because the biodiesel is an excellent solvent. It will clean out your entire fuel system and build up of junk from years of dino diesel use. I think this is a slightly over stated problem. How many out there have pulled a fuel tank and it looked really good. I guess it boils down to the quality of fuel you have purchesed over the long haul. It also cleans your pump, injectors and combustion chamber, but that is over a long period of time. Once the fuel system is clean, filter changes are the same.

Book: Do a search on google for a biodiesel book by "Girl Mark". It will put you in the right direction. Also see the biodiesel infopop link for great information.

Also do a search here, there have been tons of links posted by myself and others. I make bio, and have run it for awhile now, so the links I have posted have been the ones I have found most usefull.

Brewing is not for everyone, but it works for me. I have had NO problems with my truck since I started making and using it. See my profile, it works well for my truck, you need to decide if it will work for you or your truck.

There is a learning curve with making bio. I have been frustrated many times and gave up making it many times, but, I kept going back. Now I make good quality fuel. Even my methanol supplier asked to see a sample and commented that it looks better than the biodiesel that he buys in bulk and then turns around and sells it to stations.

It's not hard, just takes dedication and lots of learning to get it right. But, the pay off is .70 cents a gallon for fuel, a truck that runs better, smoother, quite, less knock, less smoke, less smell, less wear and tear on the fuel system (the lubrication qualities of bio are better than any other fuel). Just 1-2% bio added to your fuel far exceeds manufacturers requirement for lubricity in fuel. Something to think about with the mandated ultra low sulfer diesel just around the corner.

Kevin

Good reading.

1). In West Michigan it gets very cold in the winter. It sounds like b100 can be ran above freezing b50 above 20* and probably b20 bellow that (of course using anti gel).

2). Good first step is to find a suppy of used oil.

3). 4 gallons of fuel can be made from 5 gallons of oil.

4). The 5th gallon becomes glycerin (waste product, unshore of how you would get rid of it?)

5). More filters (1or2) are used only untill the fuel system is cleaned out from the use of regular diesel (scale and build up).

6). "Girl Mark" wrote a book about bio diesel, or look under biodiesel infopop link.



thanks-again

4). The 5th gallon becomes glycerin (waste product, unshore of how you would get rid of it Glycerin isn't considered a hazardous waste, you can throw it in your trash can.

Glycerin:

Need to remove the methanol from it as there is a residual of unused methanol. Some bio-brewers will even recliam this methanol by heating the glycerine up to above methanols boiling point (about 64 degrees celcius), recondense the methanol, and reuse it in the next batch of bio. Others just leave the glycerine exposed to outside air and let the methanol evaporate.

Once that is done, it can be used for hand cleaner (murphy's oil soap is glycerine), grease cutter, fuel in a waste oil heater, garage and concrete cleaner, fuel for a turk burner (do a search on google), and can be composted. I have heard of a few brewers giving it to the local auto detailer for an engine degreaser. I used it on old motorcycle engine that was totally nasty with years of grease and grime. It did a good job. I also use it as a grass killer along the fence and decorative rocks as they are a witch to weed whack. It is my garage floor cleaner as well.

Bio can be made using sodium hydroxide (lye) or potassium hydroxide. Most of this gets used up in the process, but some residual remains. I have experienced that the glycerine from sodium hydroxide leaves your hands feeling a little dry, and many soap makers add lanolins or conditioners to the glycerine to prevent this. Not sure about potassium hydroxide. I do know that the glycerine from potassium hydroxide, when composted, provides lots of potassium for the plants which is a good thing. Plants love it. I am switching over to potassium as soon as my supplier gets it in.

Once again, before you go using this stuff as described above, the methanol needs to be removed for safety reasons. You never know what the guy you give it to is gonna do with it. I can just imagine someone using it as a floor degreaser in a closed up shop, smoking a cig. Not a good thing.

Or you can do like infidel suggests and just pitch it. Not sure what the garbage man is gonna say, but give it a shot.

BTW, cold weather bio, gotta be carefull, antigel does not work as well with bio as it does with dino diesel. Infidel offered a great formula: Use what ever percentage of bio as a guide to HOW MUCH MORE antigel you need to use per volume. If you are running b-25, then use what the antigel manufacturer recomends PLUS 25% more (per volume of fuel). I assume that is with dino diesel that has been winterized as well. Hope this helps.

i was talking to a guy in California a couple days ago who has a 24v with 235,000 miles on it. Claims he has never put a dime in the truck and never replaced a lift pump or injector pump
Say's he has from the time he got the truck kept a jug of 1/3 used motor oil 1.3 power service and 1/3 mystrey oil in the truck. says he dumps about a 1/3 of a gal in everytime he fills his tank.