48RE "normal" trans temps - can you explain my data?
08-11-2008, 07:12 PM
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48RE "normal" trans temps - can you explain my data?
Since the first day I installed my X-monitor I've been puzzled by my tranny temps - they always seemed high compared to what others reported. When I began to tow a high/heavy load (13'6"/14,000#) the temps rose and began to concern me. (I'd been towing 12'6"/10,000# OK before) So, I got a second trans temp gauge.
I've read about people who swear they never see more than 170 trans temps and I've read people who say they hit 300 with no adverse impact. I've seen charts about fluid life that would imply that 220-230 is OK but risky -- then again the chart does not have enough info to really figure it out...
Now I've got some data and maybe someone can tell me what's "normal" and what to do?
The majority of my data is from a BD-Xmonitor that taps the stock sensor. I assume the stock sensor is internal to the tranny somewhere (though I don't know where) and from my data it is the most responsive and usually reads the highest temps. This is logical since I'd assume that an engineer used some logic in designing a location for this sensor (as opposed to aftermarket putting it where you can easily install it).
The X-monitor runs from 180 to 200 unloaded and is clearly impacted by ambient temperature and how much TC lock in the duty cycle. Running loaded I see 210 to 220 and without TC lock I've seen 260 (eg backing up hill for 2 minutes). The thing that got me concerned was running at higher power and locked - eg up hill at 60 mph with 14,000# - I spiked to 245 (TC LOCKED!) and came back to 220 slowly if I backed off to 50 mph.
By accident I installed a second sensor on my return line (I had a 50/50 shot). The second sensor showed that the cool line was, well... cool! It would rise to about 140 exactly following the stock sensor but then while the stock sensor kept rising the cool line would vary between 140 and 160 and never get as hot as the stock sensor. At some points there was an 80 degree difference!
So I moved the sensor to the other line - which is clearly the hot line. Again the second sensor would rise to 140 exactly following the stock sensor and then begin to fluctuate between 160 and 180, somewhat tracking the stock sensor but still about 40 degrees LOWER. With one interesting exception - the stock sensor would rise with the TC unlocked, but the hot line went up a lot faster. In one case a 20 second pull from a dead stop on a hill sent the hot line from 170 to 200 immediately while the stock sensor stayed at 210 with no change. In another case, backing up in gravel the hot line hit 220 immediately while the stock sensor was already at 220 and did not go up.
This data clearly supports the often asked question "where is your sensor" and shows that those who have said "my tranny never tops 200" may mean their pan stays low while the hot line or internals may be very, very hot...
This also has me wondering how fluid flows inside a a 48RE and where the heat is coming from. I have the data to show that TC unlocked makes the heat I expected -- I STILL have data that shows I can ALSO make a lot of heat at the stock sensor with TC LOCKED that is NOT showing up on the hot or cold lines.
I'm now inclined to consider my temps "normal" and not be so concerned that towing high/heavy will quickly demolish my tranny. I was at least willing to tow home yesterday (on flatland) at 60-63 instead of 50-55... Depending on which sensor I watched that means trans temps of 170 typical/180 max, OR 220 typical/250 max with the TC locked.
btw - the second sensor is a DiPricol sensor that came with the gauge and it's installed with a clamp-on device that is reported to be about 5 degrees lower than putting the sensor in the fluid directly. Since it tracks the other sensor within a few degrees up to 140-155 or so I believe the 5 degree claim and the accuracy of the second sensor.
I've read about people who swear they never see more than 170 trans temps and I've read people who say they hit 300 with no adverse impact. I've seen charts about fluid life that would imply that 220-230 is OK but risky -- then again the chart does not have enough info to really figure it out...
Now I've got some data and maybe someone can tell me what's "normal" and what to do?
The majority of my data is from a BD-Xmonitor that taps the stock sensor. I assume the stock sensor is internal to the tranny somewhere (though I don't know where) and from my data it is the most responsive and usually reads the highest temps. This is logical since I'd assume that an engineer used some logic in designing a location for this sensor (as opposed to aftermarket putting it where you can easily install it).
The X-monitor runs from 180 to 200 unloaded and is clearly impacted by ambient temperature and how much TC lock in the duty cycle. Running loaded I see 210 to 220 and without TC lock I've seen 260 (eg backing up hill for 2 minutes). The thing that got me concerned was running at higher power and locked - eg up hill at 60 mph with 14,000# - I spiked to 245 (TC LOCKED!) and came back to 220 slowly if I backed off to 50 mph.
By accident I installed a second sensor on my return line (I had a 50/50 shot). The second sensor showed that the cool line was, well... cool! It would rise to about 140 exactly following the stock sensor but then while the stock sensor kept rising the cool line would vary between 140 and 160 and never get as hot as the stock sensor. At some points there was an 80 degree difference!
So I moved the sensor to the other line - which is clearly the hot line. Again the second sensor would rise to 140 exactly following the stock sensor and then begin to fluctuate between 160 and 180, somewhat tracking the stock sensor but still about 40 degrees LOWER. With one interesting exception - the stock sensor would rise with the TC unlocked, but the hot line went up a lot faster. In one case a 20 second pull from a dead stop on a hill sent the hot line from 170 to 200 immediately while the stock sensor stayed at 210 with no change. In another case, backing up in gravel the hot line hit 220 immediately while the stock sensor was already at 220 and did not go up.
This data clearly supports the often asked question "where is your sensor" and shows that those who have said "my tranny never tops 200" may mean their pan stays low while the hot line or internals may be very, very hot...
This also has me wondering how fluid flows inside a a 48RE and where the heat is coming from. I have the data to show that TC unlocked makes the heat I expected -- I STILL have data that shows I can ALSO make a lot of heat at the stock sensor with TC LOCKED that is NOT showing up on the hot or cold lines.
I'm now inclined to consider my temps "normal" and not be so concerned that towing high/heavy will quickly demolish my tranny. I was at least willing to tow home yesterday (on flatland) at 60-63 instead of 50-55... Depending on which sensor I watched that means trans temps of 170 typical/180 max, OR 220 typical/250 max with the TC locked.
btw - the second sensor is a DiPricol sensor that came with the gauge and it's installed with a clamp-on device that is reported to be about 5 degrees lower than putting the sensor in the fluid directly. Since it tracks the other sensor within a few degrees up to 140-155 or so I believe the 5 degree claim and the accuracy of the second sensor.
08-11-2008, 08:59 PM
#2
First lets look at fluid flow and see if that will explain some things.
1.Starting in the pan the fluid is picked up by the pump, pressurized and pumped towards the TC. This will add some heat, around 20 degrees under most cases.
2. Next stop is the switch valve control. If the TC is unlocked fluid is routed thru the TC for the fluid coupling. As we know this will create heat of some range. More heat the heavier the load and what you are doing with it. If the TC is locked fluid is used to apply the TC clutch and the rest is routed thru the cooler but with a lot less heat than if it was used for fluid coupling.
3. The fluid is pump thru the cooler on the side of the block that will generally bring it close to engine coolant temp as it is a fluid to fluid cooler. Efficiency at cooling is big question here and the only way to tell is measure before and after.
4. Next stop is the air to fluid cooler at the front of the truck.
5. Return fluid from the air to air cooler is plumbed into the back line of the trans and from this point the flow is used for lube and cooling of the trans drive train. That means that every bushing, every planetary, every gear is getting bathed by the coolest fluid possible and is picking up heat as it cools the trans. Obviously if you are pulling hard and working the trans there will be some heat here. If you are slipping ANY clutches due to problems or low line pressure here is where you will see the temps climb a bit.
6. Last stop is the pan again as the trans drive train is an oil bath and all return oil just drops to the pan.
Stock sensor location is on the valve body and one would expect to see it reading relatively close to what seperate pan sensor would read. Unfortunately it looks like the reading is about the temp, charge, and fuel gauge. The ECU is setting the expected reading based on abstrated input from the rest of the sensors. In other words its a bogus reading. There is no possible way the pan temp can read higher than the hot line temp even in lockup. The stock sensor readings are NOT to be trusted.
I expect to see cooler return temps at 140-160 depending on ambient temp and load. Mine runs about that as does others. I would expect to see a 20 to 80 degree difference between cooler line and pan as the fluid has cooled the drive train. At 80 degrees difference I would start wondering what is slipping or what piece is wearing badly. I generally see around 190-210 depending on load and ambient but I have only tested on 10k and not a bigger harder pulling load. It could go higher if the conditions were right.
I am reading fluid temp on the hot line with a sensor about 1/8 " into the flow. I generally see what is a 10-20 degree higher reading than pan temp whe TC is locked. Unlocked I have seen 240 and change in the wrong conditions.
As for the clamp on sensors I think they take longer to read the higher the temps go so if you have spikes you never see them. Heat transference tends to slow down the higher the temps go and don't think they give a reliable readig once you get up around 200 degrees or better.
This theory is based on what you and others have posted concerning the clamp on sensors so no scientific basis just a SWAG.
I think your X-Monitor readings are incorrect and I think its the ECU extrapolating that is causing it. The rest of your temps look perfectly normal.
1.Starting in the pan the fluid is picked up by the pump, pressurized and pumped towards the TC. This will add some heat, around 20 degrees under most cases.
2. Next stop is the switch valve control. If the TC is unlocked fluid is routed thru the TC for the fluid coupling. As we know this will create heat of some range. More heat the heavier the load and what you are doing with it. If the TC is locked fluid is used to apply the TC clutch and the rest is routed thru the cooler but with a lot less heat than if it was used for fluid coupling.
3. The fluid is pump thru the cooler on the side of the block that will generally bring it close to engine coolant temp as it is a fluid to fluid cooler. Efficiency at cooling is big question here and the only way to tell is measure before and after.
4. Next stop is the air to fluid cooler at the front of the truck.
5. Return fluid from the air to air cooler is plumbed into the back line of the trans and from this point the flow is used for lube and cooling of the trans drive train. That means that every bushing, every planetary, every gear is getting bathed by the coolest fluid possible and is picking up heat as it cools the trans. Obviously if you are pulling hard and working the trans there will be some heat here. If you are slipping ANY clutches due to problems or low line pressure here is where you will see the temps climb a bit.
6. Last stop is the pan again as the trans drive train is an oil bath and all return oil just drops to the pan.
Stock sensor location is on the valve body and one would expect to see it reading relatively close to what seperate pan sensor would read. Unfortunately it looks like the reading is about the temp, charge, and fuel gauge. The ECU is setting the expected reading based on abstrated input from the rest of the sensors. In other words its a bogus reading. There is no possible way the pan temp can read higher than the hot line temp even in lockup. The stock sensor readings are NOT to be trusted.
I expect to see cooler return temps at 140-160 depending on ambient temp and load. Mine runs about that as does others. I would expect to see a 20 to 80 degree difference between cooler line and pan as the fluid has cooled the drive train. At 80 degrees difference I would start wondering what is slipping or what piece is wearing badly. I generally see around 190-210 depending on load and ambient but I have only tested on 10k and not a bigger harder pulling load. It could go higher if the conditions were right.
I am reading fluid temp on the hot line with a sensor about 1/8 " into the flow. I generally see what is a 10-20 degree higher reading than pan temp whe TC is locked. Unlocked I have seen 240 and change in the wrong conditions.
As for the clamp on sensors I think they take longer to read the higher the temps go so if you have spikes you never see them. Heat transference tends to slow down the higher the temps go and don't think they give a reliable readig once you get up around 200 degrees or better.
This theory is based on what you and others have posted concerning the clamp on sensors so no scientific basis just a SWAG.
I think your X-Monitor readings are incorrect and I think its the ECU extrapolating that is causing it. The rest of your temps look perfectly normal.
08-12-2008, 09:18 AM
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For some added information, I have my sensor in the hot line about 10-12" away from the trans. I have seen pulling 10K about 210-220. Normally it runs close or below engine coolant temp.
Thank said, Dave Goerend told me he wants to know what the pan temp is if he is trying to diagnose a problem...
Thank said, Dave Goerend told me he wants to know what the pan temp is if he is trying to diagnose a problem...
08-12-2008, 09:18 AM
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6-oh,
THANKS! for fluid flow description, that helps.
wrt to the stock sensor being bogus... yes the thought had crossed my mind. The one thing that argues against that is that the lead is a single wire, eg a voltage. Since there is no stock gauge, why would the ECM set a voltage on a lead? It seems that, in fact, the sensor is a real sensor and the ECM is reading that voltage too, not writing it... dunno
wrt to clamp on accuracy. For sure the thermal capacitance of the assembly plus sensor is higher than just a sensor and for sure there is thermal resistance between all the parts - so I agree it will read lower and slower. I'm not convinced that it's off by more then 5-10 degrees, if that or that it is more than a minute slower since it tracks very well with the stock sensor from 110 to 170 degrees... and I don't think the effects are THAT non-linear? Anyway, it was just convenient. If I keep the truck and beef up the tranny I'll move the sensor into the line itself.
I agree with this, which is why I thought the stock sensor must be located near some other source of heat? It clearly reacts more slowly to an unlocked TC than the hot line... but it does react and it reacts to other heat creating loads too, my only theories involved the mixing and remixing of fluids heated from various paths through the system...
interesting.
THANKS! for fluid flow description, that helps.
wrt to the stock sensor being bogus... yes the thought had crossed my mind. The one thing that argues against that is that the lead is a single wire, eg a voltage. Since there is no stock gauge, why would the ECM set a voltage on a lead? It seems that, in fact, the sensor is a real sensor and the ECM is reading that voltage too, not writing it... dunno
wrt to clamp on accuracy. For sure the thermal capacitance of the assembly plus sensor is higher than just a sensor and for sure there is thermal resistance between all the parts - so I agree it will read lower and slower. I'm not convinced that it's off by more then 5-10 degrees, if that or that it is more than a minute slower since it tracks very well with the stock sensor from 110 to 170 degrees... and I don't think the effects are THAT non-linear? Anyway, it was just convenient. If I keep the truck and beef up the tranny I'll move the sensor into the line itself.
There is no possible way the pan temp can read higher than the hot line temp even in lockup.
interesting.
08-12-2008, 11:22 AM
#5
wrt to the stock sensor being bogus... yes the thought had crossed my mind. The one thing that argues against that is that the lead is a single wire, eg a voltage. Since there is no stock gauge, why would the ECM set a voltage on a lead? It seems that, in fact, the sensor is a real sensor and the ECM is reading that voltage too, not writing it... dunno.
It just seems all the monitors that tap the signal read a lot higher than they should.
08-12-2008, 11:38 AM
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Yes... on another board I had someone confirm that they had an X-monitor too and it gives them the very same kind of high temps. I tapped a line on the ECM per the X-mon instructions if that matters.
So... now that I've got two gauges to ponder it gets interesting. I won't be towing a long distance again until the fall (any short local trips have not seemed to stress my tranny much). Based on the second gauge that's reading below 180 off the hot line I'm feeling better that I can run at 60-62 mph all day on the flats even as the X-monitor climbs to 220 or even 240.
As long as my hot line stays below 200 I wonder if I'm overheating anything? But if the X-monitor really goes up... I have to wonder if it is reading something, somewhere that is slipping, grinding etc?
As I read more about adding HP or even just towing over 22K gross I'm guessing I've got a built tranny in my future. The question is when, and how I avoid blowing the stock tranny and getting stuck while I save my $$'s for the new one.
08-12-2008, 01:30 PM
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Good info guys!
I run the X Monitor and feel pretty comfy that its pretty accurate. I've burned a stock tranny and watched the temps shoot over 220°...just destroyed it. Did this while towing. Temps in Texas have been down right blistering the past couple weeks and I spend half of the day behind the wheel....in traffic, at stop lights (That take forever), and a bunch of highway miles. 100° Day...no pulling, stop and go temps show High 170° to low 180°. Highway is usually showing in the 150° range. Pulling a trailer this past weekend in the heat of the day...on the highway showed about 155° - 160°. The longer the highway the cooler the temps get....not a lot of hills here! I hardly ever drive under 60 anytime....usually 70 something. It could be that the temps run cooler being a built tranny... my stock tranny seemed to run about 20° warmer.
Just my 2¢ worth.
I run the X Monitor and feel pretty comfy that its pretty accurate. I've burned a stock tranny and watched the temps shoot over 220°...just destroyed it. Did this while towing. Temps in Texas have been down right blistering the past couple weeks and I spend half of the day behind the wheel....in traffic, at stop lights (That take forever), and a bunch of highway miles. 100° Day...no pulling, stop and go temps show High 170° to low 180°. Highway is usually showing in the 150° range. Pulling a trailer this past weekend in the heat of the day...on the highway showed about 155° - 160°. The longer the highway the cooler the temps get....not a lot of hills here! I hardly ever drive under 60 anytime....usually 70 something. It could be that the temps run cooler being a built tranny... my stock tranny seemed to run about 20° warmer.
Just my 2¢ worth.
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08-12-2008, 02:37 PM
#8
Yes... somehow the computer knows when to light the light, which would be an on/off thing. For sure the X-monitor is reading a variable signal of some sort.
Yes... on another board I had someone confirm that they had an X-monitor too and it gives them the very same kind of high temps. I tapped a line on the ECM per the X-mon instructions if that matters.
So... now that I've got two gauges to ponder it gets interesting. I won't be towing a long distance again until the fall (any short local trips have not seemed to stress my tranny much). Based on the second gauge that's reading below 180 off the hot line I'm feeling better that I can run at 60-62 mph all day on the flats even as the X-monitor climbs to 220 or even 240.
As long as my hot line stays below 200 I wonder if I'm overheating anything? But if the X-monitor really goes up... I have to wonder if it is reading something, somewhere that is slipping, grinding etc?
As I read more about adding HP or even just towing over 22K gross I'm guessing I've got a built tranny in my future. The question is when, and how I avoid blowing the stock tranny and getting stuck while I save my $$'s for the new one.
Yes... on another board I had someone confirm that they had an X-monitor too and it gives them the very same kind of high temps. I tapped a line on the ECM per the X-mon instructions if that matters.
So... now that I've got two gauges to ponder it gets interesting. I won't be towing a long distance again until the fall (any short local trips have not seemed to stress my tranny much). Based on the second gauge that's reading below 180 off the hot line I'm feeling better that I can run at 60-62 mph all day on the flats even as the X-monitor climbs to 220 or even 240.
As long as my hot line stays below 200 I wonder if I'm overheating anything? But if the X-monitor really goes up... I have to wonder if it is reading something, somewhere that is slipping, grinding etc?
As I read more about adding HP or even just towing over 22K gross I'm guessing I've got a built tranny in my future. The question is when, and how I avoid blowing the stock tranny and getting stuck while I save my $$'s for the new one.
If your temp stays under 200 on the hot line in lockup you are good. About 190 is the norm and the trans seems to like it quite well.
A shift kit, I am partial to transgo, billet band strut and billet front servo cover is a good start towards saving the stock unit. All these can be put in without removal of unit. Any more extensive upgrades will entail pulling the transmission. Based on my experiences, at 22k the trans needs some help to avoid stranding you.
Good luck.
08-12-2008, 02:54 PM
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I use an edge insite which reads everything through the ob2 port I see 170-190 depending on outside temps. Just towed 8k camper 300 miles never saw over 205 and it was in the 90's outside.
08-12-2008, 05:01 PM
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The temps started climbing/spiking when I went to a 14K rig...
Per the other advice though... now that I've convinced myself that I'm not toasting my 48RE I am more convinced that the load I've got means I get built or get stranded...
08-12-2008, 05:05 PM
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If your temp stays under 200 on the hot line in lockup you are good. About 190 is the norm and the trans seems to like it quite well.
A shift kit, I am partial to transgo, billet band strut and billet front servo cover is a good start towards saving the stock unit. All these can be put in without removal of unit. Any more extensive upgrades will entail pulling the transmission. Based on my experiences, at 22k the trans needs some help to avoid stranding you.
Good luck.
A shift kit, I am partial to transgo, billet band strut and billet front servo cover is a good start towards saving the stock unit. All these can be put in without removal of unit. Any more extensive upgrades will entail pulling the transmission. Based on my experiences, at 22k the trans needs some help to avoid stranding you.
Good luck.
But I think your experience is probably valuable to me here so if I keep this truck I'll be doing something more than just watching the temps on the tranny. Any idea what my first sign of trouble might be? I'm inclined to risk one more 1100 mile trip and just keep my speeds low... before I re-build, but if I get stranded 500 miles from home that could be an issue!
THANKS FOR THE ADVICE -- appreciated.
08-12-2008, 07:51 PM
#12
But I think your experience is probably valuable to me here so if I keep this truck I'll be doing something more than just watching the temps on the tranny. Any idea what my first sign of trouble might be? I'm inclined to risk one more 1100 mile trip and just keep my speeds low... before I re-build, but if I get stranded 500 miles from home that could be an issue!
The indication I had problems was EGT's about 200 more than they normally ran and mpg dropping under 10. I started looking for injector problems or fuel related and then the the trans started refusing to go into drive like it should. Totally amazed at th eamount of damage that was done and how well it ran. The guy that built my trans had driven it after the shift kit and other parts and even he was surprised when we tore the trans down what it looked like.
It burned the clutches so bad it spun a friction of the input shaft hub and ruined it while still locking up hard enough under a load to bark the turbo. The signs are minimal just don't inidcate a problem in the trans. The obvious ones like slipping and the early hard shifting are easy but a lot of damage is done before they get to that point.
The small mods I reccomended before I believe will take you a long way and minimze your chances of breaking down but ya just never know some times.
08-12-2008, 07:55 PM
#13
Good info guys!
I run the X Monitor and feel pretty comfy that its pretty accurate. I've burned a stock tranny and watched the temps shoot over 220°...just destroyed it. Did this while towing. Temps in Texas have been down right blistering the past couple weeks and I spend half of the day behind the wheel....in traffic, at stop lights (That take forever), and a bunch of highway miles. 100° Day...no pulling, stop and go temps show High 170° to low 180°. Highway is usually showing in the 150° range. Pulling a trailer this past weekend in the heat of the day...on the highway showed about 155° - 160°. The longer the highway the cooler the temps get....not a lot of hills here! I hardly ever drive under 60 anytime....usually 70 something. It could be that the temps run cooler being a built tranny... my stock tranny seemed to run about 20° warmer.
Just my 2¢ worth.
I run the X Monitor and feel pretty comfy that its pretty accurate. I've burned a stock tranny and watched the temps shoot over 220°...just destroyed it. Did this while towing. Temps in Texas have been down right blistering the past couple weeks and I spend half of the day behind the wheel....in traffic, at stop lights (That take forever), and a bunch of highway miles. 100° Day...no pulling, stop and go temps show High 170° to low 180°. Highway is usually showing in the 150° range. Pulling a trailer this past weekend in the heat of the day...on the highway showed about 155° - 160°. The longer the highway the cooler the temps get....not a lot of hills here! I hardly ever drive under 60 anytime....usually 70 something. It could be that the temps run cooler being a built tranny... my stock tranny seemed to run about 20° warmer.
Just my 2¢ worth.
My built trans actually runs hotter in fluid coupling than my stocker ever did. You would have to work to get it over 200 degress and with the new TC it takes about 5 minutes in stop-n-go traffic with triple digits to get it to 220, or a so second brake stand.
In lockup its just about the same. I need to get rid of check ball and see what that does.
08-12-2008, 07:58 PM
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The later trucks seem to run a lot mor consistent on the trans temps. Don't know why.
My built trans actually runs hotter in fluid coupling than my stocker ever did. You would have to work to get it over 200 degress and with the new TC it takes about 5 minutes in stop-n-go traffic with triple digits to get it to 220, or a so second brake stand.
In lockup its just about the same. I need to get rid of check ball and see what that does.
My built trans actually runs hotter in fluid coupling than my stocker ever did. You would have to work to get it over 200 degress and with the new TC it takes about 5 minutes in stop-n-go traffic with triple digits to get it to 220, or a so second brake stand.
In lockup its just about the same. I need to get rid of check ball and see what that does.
Did you get a "loose" torque converter?
08-12-2008, 08:48 PM
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At the Rockingham race this weekend I staged against a stupid Duramax guy. I lit up both lights and started building boost. He had 1 light lit and kept backing in and out of the tree. When we launched I looked down and saw I was at 280*.....Talk about being scared!!!!! I am doing a full fluid change soon!