3rd Gen Turbo upgrade questions
08-10-2008, 06:36 PM
#1
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3rd Gen Turbo upgrade questions
how much gain is there on a 3rd gen turbo and is there one that is better then the others ? also are the 3rd gen turbos a straight swap ?
Thanks
Thanks
bump! ! ! !
08-13-2008, 12:53 AM
#4
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The 04.5+ turbo is 60mm and noticeably larger than the stock 54mm on the 98.5-2002 HX35. The exhaust side has a slightly larger turbine wheel but a slightly smaller exhaust housing that results in a net very slightly tighter exhaust side. When the wastegate opens, however, this turbo breathes twice as good as the HX35.
The 03-04 HE341 turbo is smaller and not worth the hassle of new plumbing in my opinion.
Today on the freeway at 111* overhead, 106*F forecasted high, in the dry nevada heat at 2200 ft elevation, I was cruising along at 60 MPH. I turned Adrenaline up to level 4, good for 440ish HP I'd estimate and floored it till 90 mph. EGT's hit 1390, Boost hit 40 psi. Now that is great EGT control, in my opinion, for daily driving when you figure in those high ambient temps. Before the run just cruising with 2-3psi boost, IAT=Intake Air Temp was hovering 151*F.
Oh, and just to get a better idea on how hot it is here in Vegas, my fuel temp, measured at the inlet of the VP was hovering around 171*F with a full tank of fuel. I'd like others with single turbos to post their EGT numbers for 60-90 MPH runs in 106*+ temperature just to compare. No doubt in my mind that these HE351's are the real deal for a cheap upgrade, quick spooling, and minimal turbo whistle via stock silencer ring.
The 03-04 HE341 turbo is smaller and not worth the hassle of new plumbing in my opinion.
Today on the freeway at 111* overhead, 106*F forecasted high, in the dry nevada heat at 2200 ft elevation, I was cruising along at 60 MPH. I turned Adrenaline up to level 4, good for 440ish HP I'd estimate and floored it till 90 mph. EGT's hit 1390, Boost hit 40 psi. Now that is great EGT control, in my opinion, for daily driving when you figure in those high ambient temps. Before the run just cruising with 2-3psi boost, IAT=Intake Air Temp was hovering 151*F.
Oh, and just to get a better idea on how hot it is here in Vegas, my fuel temp, measured at the inlet of the VP was hovering around 171*F with a full tank of fuel. I'd like others with single turbos to post their EGT numbers for 60-90 MPH runs in 106*+ temperature just to compare. No doubt in my mind that these HE351's are the real deal for a cheap upgrade, quick spooling, and minimal turbo whistle via stock silencer ring.
08-13-2008, 04:38 AM
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Big Blue, what did you do for the exhaust hookup on this turbo. I just bought one and got the wastegate ported out and ready to install. This one is going in place of the 35-40 I have for a good comparison and if it works out good I'm going to get another and put it in a set of twins with either a 3b or a s400 I have on hand.
Do you think the wastegate ported is enough to carry a twin setup or does it need a external wastegate? I'd rather stay with the internal gate, it makes alot cleaner setup and alot easier to build.
Do you think the wastegate ported is enough to carry a twin setup or does it need a external wastegate? I'd rather stay with the internal gate, it makes alot cleaner setup and alot easier to build.
08-13-2008, 10:37 PM
#7
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I bummed a 3rd gen down pipe from member Cbrahs. I then looked in phonebook for local big rig store, bought 18" by 4" flex aluminized and two flat band clamps. You can only use like 12" of the stock third gen down pipe since it does not have enough drop before it starts to sweep backwards.
I already had a 4" mbrp system so I just removed the 4" downpipe and reused the existing system as it had a joint just perfect to accept the new downpipe setup.
As far as wastegate for twins, Nathan at MPI who makes the famous "MPI twins" says he can open up the stock 3rd gen wastegate just like you and I did, enough to work perfectly in his stocker over S400 twin sets that support 6-650 HP. You can open up the wastegate on the HE351 to 27mm. Compare that to the stock 17mm on the HX35 and it's easy to see why it works fine in 600HP twins.
Dodgezilla, the turbo will bolt up perfectly, oil feed and drain line up, intake is the same but you have to rig up new exhaust and charged air tube. You can reclock the compressor outlet to make charged air tube plumbing easy maybe just 1 2.75"to3" reducer coupling and a few inches of 3" pipe but then the wastegate has to be rigged up. I chose to leave the stock wastegate intact and not reclock the compressor outlet and just do more 3" tubing/plumbing for charged air. I have a complete writeup at this link:
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...+3rd+gen+turbo
I already had a 4" mbrp system so I just removed the 4" downpipe and reused the existing system as it had a joint just perfect to accept the new downpipe setup.
As far as wastegate for twins, Nathan at MPI who makes the famous "MPI twins" says he can open up the stock 3rd gen wastegate just like you and I did, enough to work perfectly in his stocker over S400 twin sets that support 6-650 HP. You can open up the wastegate on the HE351 to 27mm. Compare that to the stock 17mm on the HX35 and it's easy to see why it works fine in 600HP twins.
Dodgezilla, the turbo will bolt up perfectly, oil feed and drain line up, intake is the same but you have to rig up new exhaust and charged air tube. You can reclock the compressor outlet to make charged air tube plumbing easy maybe just 1 2.75"to3" reducer coupling and a few inches of 3" pipe but then the wastegate has to be rigged up. I chose to leave the stock wastegate intact and not reclock the compressor outlet and just do more 3" tubing/plumbing for charged air. I have a complete writeup at this link:
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...+3rd+gen+turbo
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08-13-2008, 10:44 PM
#8
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If I was to do this swap for a friend who wanted more turbo but only had 450 HP worth of fuel, I'd just tack weld the wastegate shut. Re-clock the compressor housing so it only took one silicone reducer coupling and a few inches of 3". I'd then bum a third gen exhaust and/or rig up some sort of cheap downpipe and be done with the whole swap for 100 bucks plus the cost of the turbo-$250-$500.
08-15-2008, 07:25 PM
#10
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It has been a while now since the HX but I recall when I first did the swap it seemed like the HE351 was a smidge faster to 5 psi than the HX, a smidge slower to 12 psi, and then at about 15 psi, the HE flat outspools, flows, cools, and performs.
In less words, it is so close to the HX35 on the bottom end that most guys could not feel the difference between them till 1400 rpm and 15 psi boost where the HE351 third gener starts to rocket.
In less words, it is so close to the HX35 on the bottom end that most guys could not feel the difference between them till 1400 rpm and 15 psi boost where the HE351 third gener starts to rocket.
08-16-2008, 06:19 AM
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I've been messing with the wastegate with compressed air, it looks like if the shim the housing with washers the gate can't open very far. I'm thinking a blead on the boost line would work better.
I wonder if the hot pipe nathen makes for the third gen trucks will work on a second generation for twins?
I wonder if the hot pipe nathen makes for the third gen trucks will work on a second generation for twins?
08-16-2008, 12:05 PM
#12
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You can only shim the wastegate head a strong 1/16", how much travel does it have when you put 40 psi to the wastegate line, 5/8"?
Word for the wise, if you port out the wastegate hole and make it 1.25" or about 27mm, the gate will open under normal driving around 20 psi and limit boost to 23-24 on a hard run. The added surface area of exhuast gas contact on the wastegate flapper puck when you port it out lowers the gates overall ability to stay shut. I shimmed mine because I wanted more preload on the wastegate flapper.
I have a bleeder valve in addition to the shimming, but if you port it out and don't shim but install a bleeder or pinch the line all together, you can't get over 32-34 psi boost because the gate leaks too much. With the gate shimmed, I could darn near make 50 psi if I pinched the wastegate line shut.
Definitely play with it before you install, or you will be reinstalling it a few times till you shim it enough to get necessary preload to control drive pressure so that boost controls the gate.
In fewer words, if you don't shim the gate, drive pressure will have 80% of the control of when the wastegate starts to crack open. If you shim the gate, drive pressure will have 20% of the control of when the gate starts to crack open and boost will be the overriding factor.
If the gate starts to open and you are over 30 psi, great, you are fully lit and the little bled drive pressure won't hurt performance.
If, however, the gate starts to crack open at 15 psi total boost, you are not fully lit or on top of the charger and spoolup will suffer.
The reason I know all of this is because day one of the swap, I did not shim the wastegate actuator and it had barely any preload. Truck was smokey, spoolup was slower than stock, and charger fell on it's face around 16 psi boost. I figured that the wastegate was leaking plus I didn't have a bleeder/ball spring wastegate controller. I was baffled though because in stock form on an 05' this turbo is supposed to open around 26-28 psi boost.
I did some math based on stock wastegate hole drive pressure force vs modified opened up wastgate hole surface area force and figured I should still be able to make 23-24 psi with stock wastegate spring setup.
Anyway, I experimented with a thin washer and reinstalled everything. Now spoolup was better, still slower than stock, truck was less smoky but now fell on it's face around 24 psi boost.
I then pulled out some vice grips and pinched the wastegate line shut so only drive pressure could push on the wastegate.
This time yielded 32-34 psi boost, spoolup was even better, and truck now felt stronger than the HX 35. I was satisfied and out of time for the day and drove around and was still battling fuel mixed with oil-different unrelated problem- so I didn't push it for a few weeks till I could get my leaking injector oring fixed.
After a few weeks and everything was good, oil was good etc, I went out really hammering the truck with full Tilt Adrenaline but still couldn't get up the 42-43psi I was seeing with the same fueling on the HX. I then, once again removed the turbo, and shimmed the wastegate as far as possible, maybe 3/32" and pinched to wastegate line and went for a spin.
Low and behold, truck really woke up, started spinning tires in 3rd gear on sticky roads that the HX couldn't spin on and I realized I had unlocked the real potential of this turbo. I could hit 42-45 psi boost, have more egt control, and a very very noticeable gain in power in mid rpm range all the way to redline.
I removed my vice grips and eventually tuned my wastegate controller to where boost is limited around 42 to where I am today.
Truck runs great, drive pressure is great till you hit about 2900 rpm and then it starts to soar as boost goes north of 43 psi. Drive pressure hits 65 psi or so when boost hits 45 psi. Drive pressure is in the 50's when boost is around 40-41 so you can see the "choke point" is probably around 48-50 psi boost with VP44 fueling that is. I see some common rail guys going up to 55psi on this charger.
Word for the wise, if you port out the wastegate hole and make it 1.25" or about 27mm, the gate will open under normal driving around 20 psi and limit boost to 23-24 on a hard run. The added surface area of exhuast gas contact on the wastegate flapper puck when you port it out lowers the gates overall ability to stay shut. I shimmed mine because I wanted more preload on the wastegate flapper.
I have a bleeder valve in addition to the shimming, but if you port it out and don't shim but install a bleeder or pinch the line all together, you can't get over 32-34 psi boost because the gate leaks too much. With the gate shimmed, I could darn near make 50 psi if I pinched the wastegate line shut.
Definitely play with it before you install, or you will be reinstalling it a few times till you shim it enough to get necessary preload to control drive pressure so that boost controls the gate.
In fewer words, if you don't shim the gate, drive pressure will have 80% of the control of when the wastegate starts to crack open. If you shim the gate, drive pressure will have 20% of the control of when the gate starts to crack open and boost will be the overriding factor.
If the gate starts to open and you are over 30 psi, great, you are fully lit and the little bled drive pressure won't hurt performance.
If, however, the gate starts to crack open at 15 psi total boost, you are not fully lit or on top of the charger and spoolup will suffer.
The reason I know all of this is because day one of the swap, I did not shim the wastegate actuator and it had barely any preload. Truck was smokey, spoolup was slower than stock, and charger fell on it's face around 16 psi boost. I figured that the wastegate was leaking plus I didn't have a bleeder/ball spring wastegate controller. I was baffled though because in stock form on an 05' this turbo is supposed to open around 26-28 psi boost.
I did some math based on stock wastegate hole drive pressure force vs modified opened up wastgate hole surface area force and figured I should still be able to make 23-24 psi with stock wastegate spring setup.
Anyway, I experimented with a thin washer and reinstalled everything. Now spoolup was better, still slower than stock, truck was less smoky but now fell on it's face around 24 psi boost.
I then pulled out some vice grips and pinched the wastegate line shut so only drive pressure could push on the wastegate.
This time yielded 32-34 psi boost, spoolup was even better, and truck now felt stronger than the HX 35. I was satisfied and out of time for the day and drove around and was still battling fuel mixed with oil-different unrelated problem- so I didn't push it for a few weeks till I could get my leaking injector oring fixed.
After a few weeks and everything was good, oil was good etc, I went out really hammering the truck with full Tilt Adrenaline but still couldn't get up the 42-43psi I was seeing with the same fueling on the HX. I then, once again removed the turbo, and shimmed the wastegate as far as possible, maybe 3/32" and pinched to wastegate line and went for a spin.
Low and behold, truck really woke up, started spinning tires in 3rd gear on sticky roads that the HX couldn't spin on and I realized I had unlocked the real potential of this turbo. I could hit 42-45 psi boost, have more egt control, and a very very noticeable gain in power in mid rpm range all the way to redline.
I removed my vice grips and eventually tuned my wastegate controller to where boost is limited around 42 to where I am today.
Truck runs great, drive pressure is great till you hit about 2900 rpm and then it starts to soar as boost goes north of 43 psi. Drive pressure hits 65 psi or so when boost hits 45 psi. Drive pressure is in the 50's when boost is around 40-41 so you can see the "choke point" is probably around 48-50 psi boost with VP44 fueling that is. I see some common rail guys going up to 55psi on this charger.
08-16-2008, 12:54 PM
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Thanks, this is the stuff most people won't tell you. I really like a quick spooling turbo over a top end turbo. I had a hx 40 on a 12 valve and it really got me to hating a slow turbo. I tow alot and hate smoking out stop lights to get a heavy load moving.
08-16-2008, 04:32 PM
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I've been out looking at the turbo and it looks like if you welded a small tab to the end of the wastegate lever you could put a spring on it and make it adjustable hooked to the wastegate bracket where the canister hooks. I would like for the wastegate to open as far as it needs to. Do you think this will work?