2 engines, $16000, 8 questions.
11-14-2009, 02:31 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2 engines, $16000, 8 questions.
Folks, this is my definitive last effort on this truck! I've discussed a bit of this stuff in individual threads, but I'm putting it all together on this one.
2006 5.9litre 1 ton, 6 speed.. Bought new in 2006. Completely stock. I ran it about 60,000km a year in the Canadian oil patch. Idled for about 2 hours a day in the winter, not much in the summer. I towed maybe 10% of the kms, and the trailer was about 8000lbs or so. At 140,000km I started burning oil, having blowby and lack of power issues. I took it to Dodge, they tore it apart and told me the bad news. Cylinders 1 and 6 – the rings went, and scored the cylinder walls. They wouldn’t warranty it, stating it was “dusted.” No fuel or oil analysis done by myself or them. Stock air filter system. My independent mechanic and I argued that if it were dusted, all cylinders would show wear, of which only the two had. Regardless, they wouldn’t warranty it, so I had it towed to my mechanic.
I found a used engine from a fairly well trusted friend who claimed it only had 70,000kms on it. I swapped the engine over, keeping only the computer and A/C unit the same. The used engine came with it’s own CP3, injectors, oil pan, etc. Complete long block. About 12,000kms later, I noticed blowby happening on this one. I tore the head off in my shop and the same thing had happened. Cyl’s 1 and 6, cylinders were scored badly etc. A total of 5 valves were bent.
I just spent $11,000 on a complete rebuild, new pistons, rings, injectors. That $11k also includes and Espar heater so I don’t have to idle the truck any more, or scrape windshields. I also added a 2 micron Cat filter (1R 0750) after the stock filter(with a Baldwin 5 micron) in case it’s a fuel contaminant issue.
During the rebuild, we went through Dodge’s(not Cummins’) factory service manual, and just happened to notice the used engine that just ‘blew’ had the rods installed backwards compared to what the manual had said. Now bear in mind that I’m not absolutely sure about the history of this engine, but as far as I know, and as far as it looked, it had never been apart before. The rods used to get installed with the long end facing the exhaust side, but the new split rods are the opposite of this.
So I’ve got some questions for the people in the know:
1 Have you folks heard of a lot of these common rail engines ‘going’ lately? I’ve done some searching and have seen a lot popping up.
2 What is the reason these engines are having problems? Is it a fuel injection issue? Bad rings? Bad valve guides? Idling too much? Not enough oil filtration?
3 Are these injectors succeptible to damage and can that, in turn, wreck pistons/rings?
4 Which way do the rods get installed from the factory? The service manual says the long end of the rod faces the intake side of the engine. In other words, the ‘face’ of the split rod is facing the exhaust side. This is how we assembled my engine this time. I’d love to see pictures of someone’s stock bottom end to confirm. My mechanic thinks that maybe the engine builders at Cummins had just gotten used to installing the old rods this way, and just continued on with the new rods. Perhaps?
5 IF the rods were installed backwards, would this have anything to do with my engine caving? The only two issues I can see with rods installed backwards are 1)being out of balance, and 2)maybe it interferes with the j-jet nozzles cooling the pistons?
6 Is it probable that I could have overheated the engine(in terms of EGT’s) towing an 8000lb trailer up hill?
7 When an engine is wrecked from high EGT’s, what does it do to the internals? Is it melted pistons or burnt rings?
8 I guess bottom line is that I just put $11k into this truck and would like the engine to last more than 10,000 kms and am desperate for any information you can give me. Is the common rail Cummins block fundamentally sound, and if it is, does that mean the problems I’ve had have been related to an outside source – fuel, high EGT’s, etc. AND if that’s so, what could it have been?
Again, I appreciate any help you can give me, or any contacts I could speak with. Thanks very much.
Sandy.
2006 5.9litre 1 ton, 6 speed.. Bought new in 2006. Completely stock. I ran it about 60,000km a year in the Canadian oil patch. Idled for about 2 hours a day in the winter, not much in the summer. I towed maybe 10% of the kms, and the trailer was about 8000lbs or so. At 140,000km I started burning oil, having blowby and lack of power issues. I took it to Dodge, they tore it apart and told me the bad news. Cylinders 1 and 6 – the rings went, and scored the cylinder walls. They wouldn’t warranty it, stating it was “dusted.” No fuel or oil analysis done by myself or them. Stock air filter system. My independent mechanic and I argued that if it were dusted, all cylinders would show wear, of which only the two had. Regardless, they wouldn’t warranty it, so I had it towed to my mechanic.
I found a used engine from a fairly well trusted friend who claimed it only had 70,000kms on it. I swapped the engine over, keeping only the computer and A/C unit the same. The used engine came with it’s own CP3, injectors, oil pan, etc. Complete long block. About 12,000kms later, I noticed blowby happening on this one. I tore the head off in my shop and the same thing had happened. Cyl’s 1 and 6, cylinders were scored badly etc. A total of 5 valves were bent.
I just spent $11,000 on a complete rebuild, new pistons, rings, injectors. That $11k also includes and Espar heater so I don’t have to idle the truck any more, or scrape windshields. I also added a 2 micron Cat filter (1R 0750) after the stock filter(with a Baldwin 5 micron) in case it’s a fuel contaminant issue.
During the rebuild, we went through Dodge’s(not Cummins’) factory service manual, and just happened to notice the used engine that just ‘blew’ had the rods installed backwards compared to what the manual had said. Now bear in mind that I’m not absolutely sure about the history of this engine, but as far as I know, and as far as it looked, it had never been apart before. The rods used to get installed with the long end facing the exhaust side, but the new split rods are the opposite of this.
So I’ve got some questions for the people in the know:
1 Have you folks heard of a lot of these common rail engines ‘going’ lately? I’ve done some searching and have seen a lot popping up.
2 What is the reason these engines are having problems? Is it a fuel injection issue? Bad rings? Bad valve guides? Idling too much? Not enough oil filtration?
3 Are these injectors succeptible to damage and can that, in turn, wreck pistons/rings?
4 Which way do the rods get installed from the factory? The service manual says the long end of the rod faces the intake side of the engine. In other words, the ‘face’ of the split rod is facing the exhaust side. This is how we assembled my engine this time. I’d love to see pictures of someone’s stock bottom end to confirm. My mechanic thinks that maybe the engine builders at Cummins had just gotten used to installing the old rods this way, and just continued on with the new rods. Perhaps?
5 IF the rods were installed backwards, would this have anything to do with my engine caving? The only two issues I can see with rods installed backwards are 1)being out of balance, and 2)maybe it interferes with the j-jet nozzles cooling the pistons?
6 Is it probable that I could have overheated the engine(in terms of EGT’s) towing an 8000lb trailer up hill?
7 When an engine is wrecked from high EGT’s, what does it do to the internals? Is it melted pistons or burnt rings?
8 I guess bottom line is that I just put $11k into this truck and would like the engine to last more than 10,000 kms and am desperate for any information you can give me. Is the common rail Cummins block fundamentally sound, and if it is, does that mean the problems I’ve had have been related to an outside source – fuel, high EGT’s, etc. AND if that’s so, what could it have been?
Again, I appreciate any help you can give me, or any contacts I could speak with. Thanks very much.
Sandy.
11-14-2009, 06:25 PM
#2
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had an 04 that the engine went at 98,000 mi., my 06 took out at 115,000. Pistons the issue in both cases. I think injectors started both the engine problems. Sorry shame that a deisel engine won't outlast a gas engine. You'll have to excuse me i'm a little down on Cummins right now. Chuck
11-15-2009, 12:22 PM
#3
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My motor lost compression so badly it wouldnt start. Pulled it to see that 1,2,5,6 all had broken rings and scored walls. bought it recently and it seemd bone stock. Injectors tested ok.
The long end of my rods were on the exhaust side as well, I dont know if its right but im putting them in that way. Ive heard alot of problems with these years and I am honestly thinking about posting it for sale immediately after I'm done building it again and buying an 01. The price is near half and they seem to take you twice as far.
The long end of my rods were on the exhaust side as well, I dont know if its right but im putting them in that way. Ive heard alot of problems with these years and I am honestly thinking about posting it for sale immediately after I'm done building it again and buying an 01. The price is near half and they seem to take you twice as far.
11-15-2009, 04:04 PM
#4
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KRH, did you figure out what happened to the engine at all? Any ideas?
Seems odd that your rods were 'backwards' as well. Both the Cummins and the Dodge service manuals say the long end should be on the intake side if they are the split/fractured rods. I wonder if that has anything to do with the j-nozzles cooling the pistons?
Seems odd that your rods were 'backwards' as well. Both the Cummins and the Dodge service manuals say the long end should be on the intake side if they are the split/fractured rods. I wonder if that has anything to do with the j-nozzles cooling the pistons?
11-15-2009, 05:24 PM
#5
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am in your situation somewhat, and I also have been finding some issues, mainly with the #1 and #6 cylinders "going out".
Here is my deal...
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...k-t257031.html
I am currently thinking that the fuel filtration/water seperation is less than par for the injection system, even at stock levels.
-G-
Here is my deal...
https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...k-t257031.html
I am currently thinking that the fuel filtration/water seperation is less than par for the injection system, even at stock levels.
-G-
11-15-2009, 05:30 PM
#6
Banned
Based on the following from the 06 manual the rod bolt heads will face the exhaust side of the engine.
Quote from Manual---------------------------------------------------
7. Position the piston and rod assembly into the cylinder bore with the front of the piston oriented properly according
to the stamping in the top of the piston. Use care when you install the piston and connecting rod so the
cylinder bore is not damaged. The long side of the connecting rod must be installed on the intake side of theengine.
8. Push the piston into the bore until the top of the piston is approximately 50 mm (2 inch) below the top of the
block. Carefully pull the connecting rod onto the crankshaft journal.
9. Use clean engine oil to lubricate the threads and under the heads of the connecting rod bolts.
10. For fractured/split type connecting rods, the long end of the rod must be installed towards the intake side of the engine.
9 - 2680 ENGINE - 5.9L DIESEL - SERVICE INFORMATION DR
a. The connecting rod split/face must face toward the same side as the piston notch feature on the skirt. The split face will face toward the exhaust side of the engine if properly installed
Quote from Manual---------------------------------------------------
7. Position the piston and rod assembly into the cylinder bore with the front of the piston oriented properly according
to the stamping in the top of the piston. Use care when you install the piston and connecting rod so the
cylinder bore is not damaged. The long side of the connecting rod must be installed on the intake side of theengine.
8. Push the piston into the bore until the top of the piston is approximately 50 mm (2 inch) below the top of the
block. Carefully pull the connecting rod onto the crankshaft journal.
9. Use clean engine oil to lubricate the threads and under the heads of the connecting rod bolts.
10. For fractured/split type connecting rods, the long end of the rod must be installed towards the intake side of the engine.
9 - 2680 ENGINE - 5.9L DIESEL - SERVICE INFORMATION DR
a. The connecting rod split/face must face toward the same side as the piston notch feature on the skirt. The split face will face toward the exhaust side of the engine if properly installed
11-15-2009, 10:06 PM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's very intresting. I just went through replacing #5 piston/honing cylinder due to water contamination hanging the injector open and melting the piston.
This engine was installed by Dodge at about 100000 miles under warranty due to oil burning, blowby, etc.
No problems for the last 10000 miles or so...
This engine was installed by Dodge at about 100000 miles under warranty due to oil burning, blowby, etc.
No problems for the last 10000 miles or so...
Trending Topics
11-16-2009, 02:21 AM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thats very strange. My machinist wrote on my box of rods "tangs to exhaust" so i have no idea what they mean exactly. I put them in the way they came out and built the whole top of the motor. Im seriously debating whether that was the right choice. tommorrow Ill be rolling it over to install the sprayers and girdle. Ill have a good look and roll the motor over to see if there is any point in which the rods will block oil spray. Otherwise I cant see how it can make any difference.
jfdid, as for reasons behind my motors death Im not sure. I'm thinking a loss of oil pressure (low oil) or bad maintenance intervals as every rocker and shaft is scored badly, number 5 rod bearing had picked up and was ready to turn, and number 1 rod bearing had some grooves in it from contamination. Dont know if that covers the broken rings or not. Does anybody here know if a lack of oil will break rings from them sticking in the bore? Either that or ether was involved.
jfdid, as for reasons behind my motors death Im not sure. I'm thinking a loss of oil pressure (low oil) or bad maintenance intervals as every rocker and shaft is scored badly, number 5 rod bearing had picked up and was ready to turn, and number 1 rod bearing had some grooves in it from contamination. Dont know if that covers the broken rings or not. Does anybody here know if a lack of oil will break rings from them sticking in the bore? Either that or ether was involved.
11-16-2009, 08:37 AM
#9
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My rockers were scored a bit as well. Both motors. Is this a known issue with these engines or has our oil been at fault?
Krh, when you install those nozzles, certainly get back to us. There's obviously no mechanical interference with the cam or cylinder walls, and the bolts/caps may not block the oil jets completely, but maybe enough to hurt, or maybe the distorted air flow may interfere just enough? If you could take a picture or two for the folks following this thread, that would be great!
Krh, when you install those nozzles, certainly get back to us. There's obviously no mechanical interference with the cam or cylinder walls, and the bolts/caps may not block the oil jets completely, but maybe enough to hurt, or maybe the distorted air flow may interfere just enough? If you could take a picture or two for the folks following this thread, that would be great!
11-16-2009, 11:01 AM
#10
DTR 1st Sergeant
My rockers were scored a bit as well. Both motors. Is this a known issue with these engines or has our oil been at fault?
Krh, when you install those nozzles, certainly get back to us. There's obviously no mechanical interference with the cam or cylinder walls, and the bolts/caps may not block the oil jets completely, but maybe enough to hurt, or maybe the distorted air flow may interfere just enough? If you could take a picture or two for the folks following this thread, that would be great!
Krh, when you install those nozzles, certainly get back to us. There's obviously no mechanical interference with the cam or cylinder walls, and the bolts/caps may not block the oil jets completely, but maybe enough to hurt, or maybe the distorted air flow may interfere just enough? If you could take a picture or two for the folks following this thread, that would be great!
The second, is to replace the rockers and shafts with those that have torrington bearings installed in them.
11-16-2009, 11:04 AM
#11
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We just cleaned up the rockers a bit and put them back in during the rebuild. Maybe not a bad idea to get some with bearings I suppose. I would imagine if they get bad enough, they'll bend push rods and valves?
11-16-2009, 12:06 PM
#12
Registered User
My rockers were scored a bit as well. Both motors. Is this a known issue with these engines or has our oil been at fault?
Krh, when you install those nozzles, certainly get back to us. There's obviously no mechanical interference with the cam or cylinder walls, and the bolts/caps may not block the oil jets completely, but maybe enough to hurt, or maybe the distorted air flow may interfere just enough? If you could take a picture or two for the folks following this thread, that would be great!
Krh, when you install those nozzles, certainly get back to us. There's obviously no mechanical interference with the cam or cylinder walls, and the bolts/caps may not block the oil jets completely, but maybe enough to hurt, or maybe the distorted air flow may interfere just enough? If you could take a picture or two for the folks following this thread, that would be great!
What kind of oil were you and KRH running?
..
11-16-2009, 05:34 PM
#14
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was running chevron delo 400 5-40 for about 6 months, but it was burning oil from day one when i bought it.
Got a pick of the motor on the stand and one looking down onto the nozzle and piston bottom. You cant see much of anything in the picture but its there anyway. The rods arent interfering with the nozzles or there spray pattern so instead of dissassembly the entire top end of the motor. I just reused my rockers as well. They arent that bad, if I ever plan some more downtime Ill replace them or rebuild them or whatever Ive got to do.
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3...cture001fh.jpg
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2166/picture002kb.jpg
names kevin by the way, so you dont have to keep calling me by my initials.
Got a pick of the motor on the stand and one looking down onto the nozzle and piston bottom. You cant see much of anything in the picture but its there anyway. The rods arent interfering with the nozzles or there spray pattern so instead of dissassembly the entire top end of the motor. I just reused my rockers as well. They arent that bad, if I ever plan some more downtime Ill replace them or rebuild them or whatever Ive got to do.
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3...cture001fh.jpg
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2166/picture002kb.jpg
names kevin by the way, so you dont have to keep calling me by my initials.
11-19-2009, 08:25 PM
#15
Registered User
KRH, did you figure out what happened to the engine at all? Any ideas?
Seems odd that your rods were 'backwards' as well. Both the Cummins and the Dodge service manuals say the long end should be on the intake side if they are the split/fractured rods. I wonder if that has anything to do with the j-nozzles cooling the pistons?
Seems odd that your rods were 'backwards' as well. Both the Cummins and the Dodge service manuals say the long end should be on the intake side if they are the split/fractured rods. I wonder if that has anything to do with the j-nozzles cooling the pistons?
Dave
