04 EGR Update
09-09-2003, 03:38 PM
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04 EGR Update
Yesterday I wrote to DC and ask them if the truck that I just ordered would have an EGR valve. I gave them my VON number and this is the answer that I got today :
Our records indicate this truck will not have an EGR valve. At this
time, we do not have an exact date as to when the EGR valve will be
offered on the Cummins diesel trucks. However, we appreciate your interest.
Black 04
Our records indicate this truck will not have an EGR valve. At this
time, we do not have an exact date as to when the EGR valve will be
offered on the Cummins diesel trucks. However, we appreciate your interest.
Black 04
09-09-2003, 06:43 PM
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Re:04 EGR Update
I don't mean to burst the bubble, but the DC statement doesn't really say much. you won't know until you get a VIN and you go into D1 status. Thats when all the component parts are committed. At that time, you call up DC, give them your VIN and ask them to tell you the engine performance specs and whether or not it will meet the new emmissions specs for January 2004. Also, ask them if the engine can be sold in CA and if it has a CAT.
If you don't get a satisfactory answer, ask the agent on the phone to consult internal technical resources.
If you don't get a satisfactory answer, ask the agent on the phone to consult internal technical resources.
09-09-2003, 10:54 PM
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Re:04 EGR Update
Doug , I specifically ask for a date that they would start to install the EGR valves. I also ask if my VON would /would not have an EGR valve. I think the answer is fairly clear. " Our records indicate this truck will not have an EGR valve. " No bubble burst here !!! This answer came from the Senior Staff Representative. Black 04
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09-10-2003, 10:04 AM
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Re:04 EGR Update
Black 04 (now theres a cool handle. seems we have quite a few BLACK 04s in the works on this board!), yes i'm aware that you asked for a date, but note that they didn't give you one...
BTW, we all know what you mean about "installing an EGR valve" but to be more precise and complete, the new trucks don't just come "with an EGR valve". EGR is a brand new design of the intake system that is far more complex than just adding a valve and the tubing to hook it up. The engines come with a different, variable geometry turbo and different ECM programming as well. So we refer to an "EGR engine" or an "non-EGR engine". today's EGR system on the dodge RAM is not even close to the EGR valve on your grandfathers' dodge Polaris.
Anyway back to the point. I know its an encouraging statement, but I just know how DC operates in these sitations and their "records" could "indicate" something completely different two weeks from now. "our records indicate...we don't know the EGR date" is a glittering generality that means basically "we're still building non-EGR trucks for now but you never know". Since they don't have a date that EGR will be introduced, you really don't know that production won't shift and that the EGR date could be moved up to include your truck. You won't have any certainty until you get a VIN and D1 status -- THATS when parts and components are obtained and the truck's EGR status is known. Thats when they will actually have "records" indicating something about your truck.
Lots of happy little details could happen. Production problems ranging from black paint to radios to tow hooks to brake pads to a power outage could hold it up. it could sit in BX and then get shoved into BG waiting for something, and by the time it is actually scheduled for production (D1) they could have used up all the non-EGR engines. you just don't know, and the people at DC that you communicated with don't know either. really, they don't. no one does until the great computer in the sky finishes its work and crowns it D1. Only the production planners and strategists are likely to know what the non-EGR engine allocations are for pre-january trucks, and you can be that they are not the ones talking to you, nor are they issuing any statements.
now, then, do I think you are in danger? no. I'm not trying to stir up anything, and I personally do NOT think you will have EGR. Its just that the communication you received from DC is not what I use for evidence to support my opinion, because it says absolutely nothing more than what we already know. We already know that non-EGR engines are being built into trucks right now, and that this will continue for some unknown time. In other words, "probably you're ok but we don't know for sure". DC says "our records indicate your truck will not have EGR but we don't know when EGR will be introduced". In other words, "probably you're ok but we don't know for sure." The reason I say it this way is because they have no records for your truck. all they know is the VON number which is assigned by a computer the moment the dealer pressed <enter>. no production scheduling has occured which means no components or parts have been committed. All they are doing now is reviewing dealer allocations, doing quality checks on the order, etc. What you want is for the DC computers to allocate equipment and parts, and commit your truck to production. Thats D1 status, at which time someone will actually know something more about YOUR truck than what they do now.
keep calling them so you can learn of D1 status asap. If there are no hold-ups I personally think there's 80% chance you'll get a non-EGR engine. Its only September, after all, and I wouldn't expect DC to be off by more than a month, which means (to me, mho) that the production cut-over to EGR will occur in December. meaning that new vehicle orders coming in October will be "high risk", shall we say. All depends on supply and demand, and DC's ability to plan.
BTW, My truck went from VON to D1 in 7 days.
The uncertainty arises from the realization that Cummins is probably building only a certain number of non-EGR engines, and that major, non-reversable production quantity decisions have already been made, both at DC and at Cummins, as well as at all the respective suppliers of sub components and parts which support both production lines. Soon, Cummins won't have enough parts to build the non-EGR engines and they will ship the last one out to DC. Any non-EGR engines that DC requests above their agreed-upon number will require major production re-work at Cummins and will be expensive, so you can bet that won't happen. Soon, DC will convert their production lines to the EGR flavor and this is a major major shift that has to be planned carefully and is not reversable without huge expense.
On the bright side, if DC was accurate in their estimate of market demand for non-EGR trucks, then we'll see the good ones come out all the way through December. Maybe DC will have an EXCESS of non-EGR trucks (meaning they build more than have been ordered), and these non-EGR trucks will ship to dealers and sit on lots while the EGR trucks are being made. who knows? I hope for many guy's sake that actually happens. Really, the EPA regs has to do with mfg date, not the customer purchase date, so DC could build as many non-EGR trucks as they want between now and January. and Think about his possibility: They could overbuild the non-EGR trucks, then jack the price up to cover the cost of EGR, and then sell both for the same price. you can bet that two 04 trucks, one with and one without EGR on the same lot, will probably have the same price tag. that is, unless they somehow can market EGR as a benefit...
But I digress. My only point is that until you have D1 status and then you ask DC to give you the engine specs for your VIN, you don't really know anything about the EGR status of your truck.
BTW, we all know what you mean about "installing an EGR valve" but to be more precise and complete, the new trucks don't just come "with an EGR valve". EGR is a brand new design of the intake system that is far more complex than just adding a valve and the tubing to hook it up. The engines come with a different, variable geometry turbo and different ECM programming as well. So we refer to an "EGR engine" or an "non-EGR engine". today's EGR system on the dodge RAM is not even close to the EGR valve on your grandfathers' dodge Polaris.
Anyway back to the point. I know its an encouraging statement, but I just know how DC operates in these sitations and their "records" could "indicate" something completely different two weeks from now. "our records indicate...we don't know the EGR date" is a glittering generality that means basically "we're still building non-EGR trucks for now but you never know". Since they don't have a date that EGR will be introduced, you really don't know that production won't shift and that the EGR date could be moved up to include your truck. You won't have any certainty until you get a VIN and D1 status -- THATS when parts and components are obtained and the truck's EGR status is known. Thats when they will actually have "records" indicating something about your truck.
Lots of happy little details could happen. Production problems ranging from black paint to radios to tow hooks to brake pads to a power outage could hold it up. it could sit in BX and then get shoved into BG waiting for something, and by the time it is actually scheduled for production (D1) they could have used up all the non-EGR engines. you just don't know, and the people at DC that you communicated with don't know either. really, they don't. no one does until the great computer in the sky finishes its work and crowns it D1. Only the production planners and strategists are likely to know what the non-EGR engine allocations are for pre-january trucks, and you can be that they are not the ones talking to you, nor are they issuing any statements.
now, then, do I think you are in danger? no. I'm not trying to stir up anything, and I personally do NOT think you will have EGR. Its just that the communication you received from DC is not what I use for evidence to support my opinion, because it says absolutely nothing more than what we already know. We already know that non-EGR engines are being built into trucks right now, and that this will continue for some unknown time. In other words, "probably you're ok but we don't know for sure". DC says "our records indicate your truck will not have EGR but we don't know when EGR will be introduced". In other words, "probably you're ok but we don't know for sure." The reason I say it this way is because they have no records for your truck. all they know is the VON number which is assigned by a computer the moment the dealer pressed <enter>. no production scheduling has occured which means no components or parts have been committed. All they are doing now is reviewing dealer allocations, doing quality checks on the order, etc. What you want is for the DC computers to allocate equipment and parts, and commit your truck to production. Thats D1 status, at which time someone will actually know something more about YOUR truck than what they do now.
keep calling them so you can learn of D1 status asap. If there are no hold-ups I personally think there's 80% chance you'll get a non-EGR engine. Its only September, after all, and I wouldn't expect DC to be off by more than a month, which means (to me, mho) that the production cut-over to EGR will occur in December. meaning that new vehicle orders coming in October will be "high risk", shall we say. All depends on supply and demand, and DC's ability to plan.
BTW, My truck went from VON to D1 in 7 days.
The uncertainty arises from the realization that Cummins is probably building only a certain number of non-EGR engines, and that major, non-reversable production quantity decisions have already been made, both at DC and at Cummins, as well as at all the respective suppliers of sub components and parts which support both production lines. Soon, Cummins won't have enough parts to build the non-EGR engines and they will ship the last one out to DC. Any non-EGR engines that DC requests above their agreed-upon number will require major production re-work at Cummins and will be expensive, so you can bet that won't happen. Soon, DC will convert their production lines to the EGR flavor and this is a major major shift that has to be planned carefully and is not reversable without huge expense.
On the bright side, if DC was accurate in their estimate of market demand for non-EGR trucks, then we'll see the good ones come out all the way through December. Maybe DC will have an EXCESS of non-EGR trucks (meaning they build more than have been ordered), and these non-EGR trucks will ship to dealers and sit on lots while the EGR trucks are being made. who knows? I hope for many guy's sake that actually happens. Really, the EPA regs has to do with mfg date, not the customer purchase date, so DC could build as many non-EGR trucks as they want between now and January. and Think about his possibility: They could overbuild the non-EGR trucks, then jack the price up to cover the cost of EGR, and then sell both for the same price. you can bet that two 04 trucks, one with and one without EGR on the same lot, will probably have the same price tag. that is, unless they somehow can market EGR as a benefit...
But I digress. My only point is that until you have D1 status and then you ask DC to give you the engine specs for your VIN, you don't really know anything about the EGR status of your truck.
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